OK I stand corrected. So what was the price of a ZWL back then adjusting for the time frame?
US Median income in 1961 was just over $4K. I "THINK" the ZW was $59.95 in 1961, I can check on this later. Using an inflation calculator, a PW ZW would cost $432 in 2010.
It was my understanding that the total watts was 720 but each output is limited to 180 watts. You cannot pull 720 watts out of one channel. When I talked to a Lionel rep about it months ago, I was told it was a round core and I thought it was divided into 4 sections (one for each leg) but I could be wrong about some of that.
I don't think the unit could be classified as a "toy" train transformer power supply if they went over 180 watts of output on any one channel.
quote:Originally posted by Dale Manquen:quote:The average 1 income salary in 1960 was approx $24K.
That doesn't sound right. When I graduated from college in 1965, I got one of the top job EE offers at $8400/year. I don't think the average salary was more that 3 times this amount.
For the decade of 1960-1969 from the Internet (probably for 1960):
National Debt 286.3 Billion
Average Salary $4,743
Teacher's Salary $5,174
Minimum Wage $1.00
I noticed that too...when I graduated in 1964, I started at $8900.
The first job I had was a warehouse laborer in '64. You could make more today on unemployment than I did then.
I agree with what Chuck says about it not being classed as a toy if they went over 180. That to my knowledge is the reason Lionel backed off the planned 190 Powerhouse. If you will check the backs of your ZWCs and New ZWs you'll find each channel is marked for 190, even though incorrect. They didn't update the labels and continued to turn them out that way.
Incidentally, I'm now re-thinking how long they should make available replacement boards for the ZWC given the written Lifetime Warranty.
I agree with what Chuck says about it not being classed as a toy if they went over 180. That to my knowledge is the reason Lionel backed off the planned 190 Powerhouse. If you will check the backs of your ZWCs and New ZWs you'll find each channel is marked for 190, even though incorrect. They didn't update the labels and continued to turn them out that way.
Incidentally, I'm now re-thinking how long they should make available replacement boards for the ZWC given the written Lifetime Warranty.
quote:Don't look for it anytime soon. Apparently all the bugs aren't worked out yet. They had a non operating sample at York. It looks like a Postwar ZW on steroids.
The middle cube is larger and the sides and handles are larger than an old ZW.
Skip
Ok...Good news! I got a different story today from a different Lionel employee. It is pending UL approval and there is a possibility, if no changes need to be made, that the ZW will be out by December. If not early next year.
That's a better answer than "not anytime soon!"
Now let's see who the real "trusted" Lionel employee turns out to be!
Skip
June 2012??????.....ok now I know which Lionel employee at York knows and tells the truth.
quote:Originally posted by Joe Fermani:... When I talked to a Lionel rep about it months ago, I was told it was a round core and I thought it was divided into 4 sections (one for each leg)...
Sounds like it's a toroidal transformer, very high capacity for the size. I have not seen one with 4 secondary windings, but that would be the way to get full output from each channel without sapping power off another channel like on a postwar ZW.
Gee, maybe they could make the core similar to a Variac toroid and actually have mechanical wipers like a Variac and the old ZW, eliminating the need for electronics! Oh, I forgot about remote control.....
It will be interesting to see if they stick with the "shark fin" waveform.
It will be interesting to see if they stick with the "shark fin" waveform.
I'm not sure how having four windings would be better, maybe four individual toroids would. More current through the primary or secondary still saturates the core, regardless of it's design.quote:Originally posted by ADCX Rob:
Sounds like it's a toroidal transformer, very high capacity for the size. I have not seen one with 4 secondary windings, but that would be the way to get full output from each channel without sapping power off another channel like on a postwar ZW.
With PH/PM/Cab1/Legacy, why go with this. With CC, you can place all th power supplies under the layout, and walk with your train with the Cab1/2.
quote:Originally posted by Dale Manquen:
Gee, maybe they could make the core similar to a Variac toroid and actually have mechanical wipers like a Variac and the old ZW, eliminating the need for electronics! Oh, I forgot about remote control.....
It will be interesting to see if they stick with the "shark fin" waveform.
I once worked on an NMR power supply that had a three phase pre-regulator consisting of three "Variacs" operated by motors...
Originally Posted by bigkid:
quote:Originally posted by Dale Manquen:quote:The average 1 income salary in 1960 was approx $24K.
That doesn't sound right. When I graduated from college in 1965, I got one of the top job EE offers at $8400/year. I don't think the average salary was more that 3 times this amount.
For the decade of 1960-1969 from the Internet (probably for 1960):
National Debt 286.3 Billion
Average Salary $4,743
Teacher's Salary $5,174
Minimum Wage $1.00
My problem with the new ZW's and a lot of the modern stuff seems to be that they aren't particularly reliable in the short term, and that parts are scarce from the day they are introduced, and on that grounds the posters may have something. If these units were built bullet proof, if they used components designed not to fail, kind of like western electric used to do with phones, then it wouldn't be an issue, since few repairs would need to be made. If a computer fails, for example, it is really easy to find parts to repair it and the cost is nominal in most cases; if a 1500 buck engine fails, even if under warranty, it sounds from what I hear that it is often a nightmare to get it fixed. If I spend 600 bucks on a transformer and two years down the road, after the warranty expires, it needs repair and a)if they have the parts it is going to cost me several hundred dollars or b)they can't even get the parts, then I have a 600 dollar paper weight. If I buy a computer for 500 bucks, chances are I can fix what breaks for a nominal cost, and if I can't, chances are I can replace it for not all that much (and odds are it will last me a good number of years). A lot of this is the hassle figure, if I buy something then spend a lot of time repairing it or trying to have it repaired...
The problem with the new ZW-L is in some ways, it is doing exactly the same thing the 1950's one is (if I understand it correctly), it is basically a conventional transformer that has better power output and I am sure protection in it and so forth...but is it worth spending almost 700 bucks on something that could die in the next 4 or 5 years (and here I am assuming it has the same quality problems other modern stuff seems to) that will have trouble being repaired considering the track record with parts I am hearing, then buying something older that can probably work for the next 50 years with minimal repair work? It isn't even like comparing a 1950's car to a modern car, because with the car I know that in the timeframe I am likely to use it, maybe 10-15 years, parts will be available, and the modern car offers a million reasons not to drive the 1950's one; whereas the modern ZW-L, while offering significant power output and probably protection, doesn't offer that much over the older ZW's...so for many, it may not be worth the cost and the risk of the company saying "sorry, parts not available"....and given the size of the toy train market, not likely to be significant market in repair parts there (and not likely because Lionel et al won't allow that to happen with proprietary stuff).
Given the size of the market and the way they do things, I doubt very much that the PW-L will be much different then what we hear of modern stuff in general....though also keep in mind that the control circuitry for something like this is not going to be as complicated as an engine, for example, since de facto it is mimicking a 1950's PW, takes 110vac and turns it into variable output AC, so it may be more reliable then you would think. I would worry about the mechanical things, the buttons and such, and the handles and contacts, if they are made cheaply they are prob more likely to go then circuit boards.
I don't usually read this forum (prewar guy, here), but I found this thread on a new ZW-L. Is this a conventional transformer with copper coils and iron cores or is this something of a case with modified "bricks" inside?
In my opinion, it would be a benefit to do things like the 1950's ZW. There are tons of them out there (and many prewar transformers, as well) that still are in use, compared to the modern type transformers. Otherwise, for $800, I'd buy four or five originals. If you want a killer power source, although no whistle controllers, etc., go grab a prewar V or Z in good shape for under $100. They put out extreme power and run at 25 V, if necessary.
Hi jsrfo,
Is this a conventional transformer with copper coils and iron cores or is this something of a case with modified "bricks" inside?
I'm not sure what you are getting at with your comment. Modern "brick" power supplies and most modern transformers still contain substantial iron core copper wound transformers. The new ZW-L is a little different in that it uses a toroidal transformer.
A toroidal transformer has several advantages. Not the least of these is VERY high efficiency. It's the single biggest reason that Lionel is able to offer a 600+ watt transformer in a physical package that's about the same size as an MTH Z-4000. The main reason that no prior train transformer has been built around a toroidal transformer is cost. Each time the wire is wrapped around a toroidal iron core the entire length must pass through the center and be "handed off" from on side to the other. There are some machines that can do this work, but most toroidals are still wrapped by hand.
Perhaps you're referring to the voltage control. In that regard the new ZW-L is a thoroughly modern transformer. All voltage control is electronically controlled. There are no wipers connected to the handles rubbing against the windings like on an original ZW.
I viewed the Mike Ragen video a few days ago here on the forum. I never understand the purpose or the need to address the new ZW in Legecy as an "engine. "Could someone explain this feature for me?
Thanks
Richard
Just in case you don't have enough TR numbers...options.
But since the manual seems to imply you can address it above TR9 unlike the ZW-Cs I think that is probably a moot point.
Thanks martyE.
Richard
Originally Posted by dave hikel:
Hi jsrfo,
Is this a conventional transformer with copper coils and iron cores or is this something of a case with modified "bricks" inside?
I'm not sure what you are getting at with your comment. Modern "brick" power supplies and most modern transformers still contain substantial iron core copper wound transformers. The new ZW-L is a little different in that it uses a toroidal transformer.
A toroidal transformer has several advantages. Not the least of these is VERY high efficiency. It's the single biggest reason that Lionel is able to offer a 600+ watt transformer in a physical package that's about the same size as an MTH Z-4000. The main reason that no prior train transformer has been built around a toroidal transformer is cost. Each time the wire is wrapped around a toroidal iron core the entire length must pass through the center and be "handed off" from on side to the other. There are some machines that can do this work, but most toroidals are still wrapped by hand.
Perhaps you're referring to the voltage control. In that regard the new ZW-L is a thoroughly modern transformer. All voltage control is electronically controlled. There are no wipers connected to the handles rubbing against the windings like on an original ZW.
OK, I see how this is constructed and understand the construction costs. I'm a bit of a dinosaur in my thinking sometimes, and what I was trying to say is that if it were built more like the older ZW's, for $800, it may not be a bad investment, simply because there are so many original V, Z, VW, ZW, and KW transformers still in use, that it would most likely be fairly durable. (I know the technology is dated, and probably not nearly as safe as a modern ZW controller).
Of course, those old transformers were made in a time when things were serviceable, and today, nothing is made to last more than five to seven years, and you can't work on them.
So, my comment was just based on thinking that they were going back to a somewhat old school approach.
I guess the trains I like and use do not require precise control of the voltage, and you generally have to "run" the trains with a hand on the throttle, pretty much all the time anyway. That's why I don't have a great understanding of these new transformers, other than if they break, they can be a bit problematic to get repaired. Thanks for the info.
jsrfro
Of course, those old transformers were made in a time when things were serviceable, and today, nothing is made to last more than five to seven years, and you can't work on them.
The Z-4000 has been around for well over 7 years. They do not fail often but I have yet to hear of one that has had a problem that could not be repaired economically.
Let's hope the ZW-L has the same reputation in 2024.
Originally Posted by dave hikel:
There are some machines that can do this work, but most toroidals are still wrapped by hand.
Probably in China. Just wonder how good the quality control will be as this takes a level of skill. I think I will stick to my old ZWs and KWs for now. Hope its not the same person who put some of my engines together with some parts rattling around in them when I received them or wired my smoke unit fan backwards.
Dale H
Any word on the release date for this guy yet?
The ZW-L release, I noticed today, has moved to October 2012
Some "one size fits all" statements have been made about modern transformers, electronics, and power supplies.
NOT to get into the MTH vs. Lionel argument, but I have had two MTH Z-4000's, one fourteen-years old, and the other ten with ZERO problems.
Luck or just a dependable design? 
I do not wish to sound like I am opposed to progress or new technology but the ZW's that currently run my layout were purchased in the late 1950's. Outside of new carbon sliders,and a new power cordbeing replaced, they still perform like brand new. If I were to buy a new "improved" ZW and if this really represents progress, we have every right to deserve and expect the same or better reliability. If Lionel can prove that this transformer will provide it, I would buy this expensive Chinese creation, but to spend big money on something untested is very risky.
Delayed till Nov now.
I wouldn't be surprised, if it doesn't get built.
Already built from what I understand.
Hi guys,
Patience is a virtue. The ZW-L is a real product, not vapor ware. Mike Reagan has already done the new product video showing in good detail how to use the transformer.
Hopefully Mike will make it to the LUG meeting at York and we can ask what is holding up delivery. It's much better to delay the product and get it right than to release it and have to ship them back to Ohio for modification. That would be a really BIG shipping bill for something that will probably weigh about 30 or 40 pounds.
Dave
Thanks for the reminder on the video. Your right, better to be right then having to ship that monster.
Jim they said the same thing about DCS. At least this will be ready when released
Good Evening cbojanower,
I hope you're right. It worries me when things keep getting pushed back. It seems that all the companies do it. It has to be very frustrating to the dealers and their customers. Take care.
Back at the spring York Mike told me the one that they were using on their display was the first ZW-L they received. And that they were going to take it back with them and see how many ways they can break it. By breaking it they could figure out how to fix it. Maybe it broke more then they wanted it to.
I can wait, I would rather have it with no problems right from the start.
Video of customer service layout shown here on the forum looked like they were using zw-l. Must be going ok for them as apparent buy the video. Seems all the trains ran fine during the open house.
Originally Posted by jim sutter:
Good Evening cbojanower,
I hope you're right. It worries me when things keep getting pushed back. It seems that all the companies do it. It has to be very frustrating to the dealers and their customers. Take care.
Delays in this arena are not necessarily a bad thing(but I will not deny it's a bit of a trial on the patience sometimes).
Most folks (though it seems some had early models with issues) would consider the ultimate result of the MTH Z2000 offering a success. (that's not a typo in the bold- while I was not one who ordered, I seem to remember when the Z4k first came out and some of the guys picking theirs up from my LHS had pre-orders from when it was offered as a Z2000)
-Dave
December now
It must have been a typo yesterday, I thought the schedule showed May 2013 For the ZW-L.
Not to change the subject, but I was wondering If MTH, Lionel and Atlas built things in the U.S. would there still be so many delays. I really don't know. What do you folks think?
Well on one hand it would be quicker to respond to issues, and shipping would be cheaper. Time to market would surely decrease.
But labor would cost more, land would cost more, storage would cost more. And is there enough expertise in manufacturing these electronics here in the US?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it, but just like Apple said, if they could they would, but the US just doesn't have what you need to manufacture here.
Originally Posted by Timmy:
But labor would cost more, land would cost more, storage would cost more. And is there enough expertise in manufacturing these electronics here in the US?
Why we can build fighter jets but not a simple Power Supply ?
Wow. In three days, this thread will be a year old!
