Ok, John, here's what I come up with using 25'. I added some preliminary trackage just to get an idea what will fit. The bench work is all 30" reach. Ignore the 16'7" and note that it doesn't watch the yellow area.
@Mark Boyce posted:John, you just gained some space; well not really, but will help on design!
Hi Mark, Yes I understand your comment clearly. I need all the help I can get on design.
Thanks for the support
@DoubleDAZ posted:Ok, John, here's what I come up with using 25'. I added some preliminary trackage just to get an idea what will fit. The bench work is all 30" reach. Ignore the 16'7" and note that it doesn't watch the yellow area.
Hi Dave,
Looks great! I will fix the yellow area's as they are off and were onl a general guidline which makes it confusing to sa the least. On the bottom/north wall there is a 4" bump out 18' from the east wall. The bump out is 19" long It looks like the yellow hide that feature. I'll make corrections and repost.
Again thanks for your help!
John
Mark, I understand exactly what you are saying. I need all the help I can get with design, even if it already existed. 
Thanks John
Dave here is a better/accurate view of room with all its nuances. Can you post your design in scarm? And it appears there is opportunity for some bump outs to add scenery and spurs.
Thanks in Advance
John
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John, here's your file with my additions on a separate layer (DAZ).
I've also included a view without all the extra room stuff that's not applicable to the work space for the layout. Note the changes to the Red baseboard outline. I added 2 peninsulas, each 5'x5' with 30" aisles. I haven't played with tracks yet, but I'd probably add a lift-out bridge at the top to connect the peninsulas. This was just to show a different way of looking at the space, be able to use O72 curves throughout and have access when needed without using access hatches. Note that my Green area differs slightly from your Yellow area on the right side.
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for cleaning it up and using proper alignment. Huge help! I would like to have my double track Atlas Pratt Bridge used between the two peninsulas, I was planning to hinge one side and lift the other side vertical for passage to the central area. Now to start implementing track, industry and towns. Looking for a coaling operation, as main industry along with towns, freight etc. As far as track goes, at least one continuous loop with reverse loops and then sidings, spurs for pick ups and deliveries. possible small yard for storing trains. So I am probably looking at a 40' x 60' area which is not available... 
But I am extremely happy with the space I do have and will enjoy it all!
Again Thanks for all the help!
John
Hi Dave,
Your fiddling is more like a concert. Love the peninsula and the yard it affords. Looks like the round house gives the reverse options too. I do have a ross double crossover switch which could do the cross over between the two main lines at the north wall.
This is more than exciting, to see the space being used so cleverly.
Thanks
John
John, Dave really came up with some great ideas for all 4 of my plans before I settled on this one. You can tell he likes what he is doing with the plans. Dave fiddles as fast as Charlie Daniels did with the fiddle!! I like what you came up with too, Dave.
Thanks Mark. Got tired of watching too much of The Handmaid’s Tale and there’s not much else on. I finished packing the car early for our road trip to Gainesville GA for Labor Day week, so why not play with some designs on a sweet Sunday afternoon? BTW, I liked the fiddle analogy. 🤪
That’s quite a road trip, Dave! I’m glad you folks are able to get back to some traveling again!
Haven’t been anywhere since June 2019. Usually we’d have gone somewhere in September/October, Cocoa Beach FL in February, Gainesville in April and we had an extensive trip planned for this month up to the Vancouver area, over to the Calgary area and maybe all the way to Thunder Bay ON. COVID19 has really put a damper on our travels and it stinks. 😡
Here is an attempt at a workable layout, which i am not sure it really is workable. It looks like it eeds some elevation changes with over/under tracks. Hoping to fit in some industries (maybe left/below bridge) which is a lift bridge for passage to the center. Please ALL comments are more than welcome. I do like the idea of the turn table and maybe add a 3 stall engine house. Not totally happy with yard yet as it seems to take a lot of room and track maybe too close for actual operation.
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Have been working on the room and have painted new wall a "sky blue" Now looking at overhead lighting. There are two air ducts running down that ceiling area that I found some Led fixtures would fit in the space between the parallel ducts. Now I need to make some mounting brackets and see how they look and the quality of light they give from that position.
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John, The plan looks like a good start. I'll leave suggestions for the yard and turntable area for others, since I never had the space to do either. Are you planning to use a double track bridge for the walkthrough opening on the right? It would be easier than bridges on two levels like I have. That means the grade from there to the first overpass would be pretty steep, though my 4% grades are manageable for the short trains I'll run. I'm thinking Dave is away on his trip to Georgia about now, so I don't know when he will be able to look at it. I never did get figured out how to setup grades on SCARM. He did it for me.
The blue walls look great! Yes some lighting around those ducts would help a lot. Are you going to leave the ceilings open, that is no drop ceiling? I see a lot of people who do that paint all the joists black so they aren't so noticable and it keeps the dust to a manageable level. I left my floor bare concrete. Are you going to do the same, or put in some floor covering? I may do something in the future, like the interlocking rubber mats in the walking area, but there is only so much money to work with.
Mark,
There are already grades of 3.4% and 3.6%, so I'm not sure what John is saying. The Blue tracks are at 7" elevation and the yellow tracks on the left are at 1" elevation for a 6" separation.
The TT is a 34" model with crazy curved 37" whiskers done with flex track on the left and 19"-29" on the top". With a 34" TT, there's no way to fit a Round House because it has a 60"-63" footprint from the center of TT to the back wall of the RH, assuming that large engines will have to fit. The last photo is a view of the original TT configuration I sent John earlier. He moved the double cross and went lower with the elevation change. Going lower is something I always seem to forget.
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Well Dave, those grade numbers sound very familiar to me. Going lower is something I forget too. For some reason I have found getting my vertical easements at the top and bottom of my grades muh harder to do than when I built HO and N layouts.
I knew there needed to be a runaround track at the yard, and the tail track too. Maybe John could fit in a rectangular two-stall enginehouse in like I have.
Mark, I shouldn’t have said no RH, depends on what he wants and how to build it.
Agreed, I'm shoehorning in more than I thought I could as construction progresses. Maybe a roundhouse could be squeezed in somehow.
@Mark Boyce posted:John, The plan looks like a good start. I'll leave suggestions for the yard and turntable area for others, since I never had the space to do either. Are you planning to use a double track bridge for the walkthrough opening on the right? It would be easier than bridges on two levels like I have. That means the grade from there to the first overpass would be pretty steep, though my 4% grades are manageable for the short trains I'll run. I'm thinking Dave is away on his trip to Georgia about now, so I don't know when he will be able to look at it. I never did get figured out how to setup grades on SCARM. He did it for me.
The blue walls look great! Yes some lighting around those ducts would help a lot. Are you going to leave the ceilings open, that is no drop ceiling? I see a lot of people who do that paint all the joists black so they aren't so noticable and it keeps the dust to a manageable level. I left my floor bare concrete. Are you going to do the same, or put in some floor covering? I may do something in the future, like the interlocking rubber mats in the walking area, but there is only so much money to work with.
Hi Mark, The bridge is a double track atlas Pratt truss bridge. I am hoping to have it hinged on one end and swing up. In that area is a steel overhead I-beam which lowers that part of the ceiling clearance. So positioning the bridge maybe determined by clearances. Which leads into the question off drop ceiling or black paint or other suggestions. I realize that this decision needs to be made sooner rather than later.
The blue paint was picked out by my artistic wife, so all credit goes to her. She also picked out the floor paint which I am starting to paint now. I was also thinking about the interlocking floor pads, which will wait until I see if their is any funds left at the end of the build. Lighting is costing more than I anticipated, as I am sure other things will go over budget too!
Thanks for the feedback
@DoubleDAZ posted:Mark,
There are already grades of 3.4% and 3.6%, so I'm not sure what John is saying. The Blue tracks are at 7" elevation and the yellow tracks on the left are at 1" elevation for a 6" separation.
The TT is a 34" model with crazy curved 37" whiskers done with flex track on the left and 19"-29" on the top". With a 34" TT, there's no way to fit a Round House because it has a 60"-63" footprint from the center of TT to the back wall of the RH, assuming that large engines will have to fit. The last photo is a view of the original TT configuration I sent John earlier. He moved the double cross and went lower with the elevation change. Going lower is something I always seem to forget.
Hi Dave, I'm looking at having some height changes in track to add interest with trains running over and under each other. I made some poor attempts with setting a high elevation of seven inches and a lower one inch which may not be needed for clearences. Thought using a worst case would be better to see if there was a grade bigger than four degrees. I moved the double crossover to provide a lower grade. The turntable and track coming off of it was to see how much room there is for an engine house or a small round house. Also was trying to keep in mind space for industries and towns. I loved your putting in the turntable and that area. I have a ross four way hard switch that I would like to use which is why I changed any of your original hard drawing. Almost forgot I have a vascular bridge and a MTH 30" grider bridge that I would like to work in somehow.
Thanks John
@Aegis21 posted:Hi Mark, The bridge is a double track atlas Pratt truss bridge. I am hoping to have it hinged on one end and swing up. In that area is a steel overhead I-beam which lowers that part of the ceiling clearance. So positioning the bridge maybe determined by clearances. Which leads into the question off drop ceiling or black paint or other suggestions. I realize that this decision needs to be made sooner rather than later.
The blue paint was picked out by my artistic wife, so all credit goes to her. She also picked out the floor paint which I am starting to paint now. I was also thinking about the interlocking floor pads, which will wait until I see if there's any funds left at the end of the build. Lighting is costing more than I anticipated, as I am sure other things will go over budget too!
Thanks for the feedback
I know about funds. I still want to put up one more set of lights. I can work that from my aisle, but need to do it before I put in any scenery. Since this is the first "permanent" O gauge layout I have built, I am astounded at how track and switches costs add up compared to HO or N scales. I wouldn't be able to afford to build even a medium sized layout if I had the space to do it.
@Aegis21 posted:Here is an attempt at a workable layout, which i am not sure it really is workable. It looks like it eeds some elevation changes with over/under tracks. Hoping to fit in some industries (maybe left/below bridge) which is a lift bridge for passage to the center. Please ALL comments are more than welcome. I do like the idea of the turn table and maybe add a 3 stall engine house.
I went from an N scale layout to O scale and I had planned on having a six track yard. Well...that did not work. O scale yards take a lot of room but I would recommend to have a yard (even a small yard) because it gives you a spot to keep a train ready to go and it is still on your layout.
I have been through that and I agree, Dan!
John, I think you saw this, but I'm splitting my enginehouse and yard between separate levels. When there isn't much room, it's better than nothing.
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Aegis21:
Although I joined this thread later on, I wanted to commend your process for planning and gathering input for an L-shaped layout. I designed and built an L-shaped layout in an addition to the rear of our house, which was created as a home office by the previous owner - a draftsman. Now it's my train room! Not as BIG as your space, so I'm envious!
I used ANYRAIL to design my layout. Quick to learn, easy to use.
I provided aisle space around the perimeter of most of the layout; with 20/20 hindsight, I now consider it "wasted space." I should have installed an around-the-wall layout as you intend to do. To gain more trackage, I installed a second level. It contains 36 DEPT 56 North Pole Village porcelain buildings and three short point to point trolley lines. Two of the trolleys and a handcar have Christmas decor.
The E-W main platform is an oval with a figure 8 built-in, so I have four reversing loops in that design. The sidings and an industrial district are in the N-S leg of the layout, which also includes a DINOSAUR PARK for playtime fun for my young great grandson, Matthew (now age 7). Pix attached.
Your initial post to the OGR FORUM gathered many helpful follow-up notes. Carry on, relentlessly ...
Mike Mottler LCCA 12394
mottlermike10@gmail.com
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@Mark Boyce posted:I know about funds. I still want to put up one more set of lights. I can work that from my aisle, but need to do it before I put in any scenery. Since this is the first "permanent" O gauge layout I have built, I am astounded at how track and switches costs add up compared to HO or N scales. I wouldn't be able to afford to build even a medium sized layout if I had the space to do it.
Yes Mark, this is not a poor man's hobby, although I've never had a hobby that was free! I have been collecting train stuff over the past years and that has helped spread the burden on the bottom line.
@dan 77 posted:I went from an N scale layout to O scale and I had planned on having a six track yard. Well...that did not work. O scale yards take a lot of room but I would recommend to have a yard (even a small yard) because it gives you a spot to keep a train ready to go and it is still on your layout.
I am sure this is good advice and will make every effort to do something along those lines. Thanks for the words of wisdom.
@Mark Boyce posted:I have been through that and I agree, Dan!
John, I think you saw this, but I'm splitting my enginehouse and yard between separate levels. When there isn't much room, it's better than nothing.
Mark I did see your pics and love what you have done in tight quarters. Amazing and inspiring for sure!
@Mike H Mottler posted:Aegis21:
Although I joined this thread later on, I wanted to commend your process for planning and gathering input for an L-shaped layout. I designed and built an L-shaped layout in an addition to the rear of our house, which was created as a home office by the previous owner - a draftsman. Now it's my train room! Not as BIG as your space, so I'm envious!
I used ANYRAIL to design my layout. Quick to learn, easy to use.
I provided aisle space around the perimeter of most of the layout; with 20/20 hindsight, I now consider it "wasted space." I should have installed an around-the-wall layout as you intend to do. To gain more trackage, I installed a second level. It contains 36 DEPT 56 North Pole Village porcelain buildings and three short point to point trolley lines. Two of the trolleys and a handcar have Christmas decor.
The E-W main platform is an oval with a figure 8 built-in, so I have four reversing loops in that design. The sidings and an industrial district are in the N-S leg of the layout, which also includes a DINOSAUR PARK for playtime fun for my young great grandson, Matthew (now age 7). Pix attached.
Your initial post to the OGR FORUM gathered many helpful follow-up notes. Carry on, relentlessly ...
Mike Mottler LCCA 12394
mottlermike10@gmail.comMike I was looking at a perimeter aisle and would have still left that door open until your advise. Second level looks great and will consider doing that to increase acreage
Thanks and nice pics, get your great grandson smiles a lot!
Mark, You have been so inventive to make the utmost of your space and railroad. Great having a yard and engine house on your layout! I am still trying to visualize industries and town(s) (space allowing). I super sized the turntable area and that will have me use an overhead creeper in that area,which may be a price I'm willing to pay. This option appears to provide a lot of user interest and railroad flexibility.
Off the turntable I am contemplating a 3 or 4 stall round house. I think it could squeeze in and would add a lot to that area. Still having trouble locating a spot for my bascule bridge, town and the long back straight run with one or two sidings and should there be some curves and elevation changes for interest. I'd like the bascule bridge to be over a river that empties into a body of saltwater. Just a nostalgia thing for me.
How is your layout coming? Can't wait to see what you are doing. Hope all is well.
John
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John, I agree if you really want the turntable and roundhouse, then the topside creeper is well worth the investment. I would love to have a turntable and roundhouse, but in my space there wouldn't be room for much else. 
I think I needed to see the layout in actual three dimensions before I could see how to fit in the wye, two-stall engine house, and yard below. If you go waaayyy back in my design and build topic, you can see how all were discussed in some measure during previous plans. It all started in January 2017! Wow, it has been that long to get this far. I call this plan that I am building Plan D. Plan A was scrapped on the drawing board. I started construction on Plans B and C, then I tore them apart and repurposed everything in Plan D. I am going to have a good bit of track and a few switches left over when the track is all done. So the inventiveness was more like Thomas Edison finding 1000 ways that don't work before one does.
I have been taking advantage of the warm but not hot weather trying to get some things done outside that I didn't get done in the summer or last summer before the knee replacement. Therefore I haven't had much to report on construction. In the evenings I did fiddle with trying to add another siding that didn't work a couple places, but I think I have found a place to fit it in.
I like the bottom plan with the two passing sidings, one on the yellow and one on the blue track. For me, elevation changes are hard enough to just get a steady grade with verticale easements at the top and bottom so I could cross over the other track, that I don't want to think of building the slight ups and downs like in reality. Making long straight stretches look better with some slight curves really looks great. Then again, I have enough trouble bending flex track to suit a small connection, that I didn't attempt the slight curvatures. Maybe you could do it on your much longer straight-aways with the largest diameter curved sections on the market.
Maybe the bascule bridge would work on the yellow track across the aisle from the yard. It would be great if you can fit it and some kind of saltwater in considering where you grew up.
I'm hoping to get something posted on my newest siding, but so far there isn't much to photograph. I hope someone else throws out some ideas on your plan and comments.
Well Mark you have a good eye then as your layout is coming along with great additions! How is your knee doing?
Yeah the trouble I am having with the bascule bridge is the twin main lines, needed a double track bridge lol.
Thanks for the suggestion on the largest curves to add some interest and break up the long straight ways !
John, My knee is doing pretty well. How is yours?
New knee really good the other, is bearable. Thanks for asking.
Ok, so progress up until now has been slow and unsteady. Finally the room is coming together, as in the walls and floor are painted. Lighting is being developed and in progress. Now if I had a better idea of my layout, things would be on the optimistic side of full speed ahead. I have read many post about my first question... Layout height! What is the overall range of heights. My gut instinct is 42" high. Range starting around 38" to 42" anyone with reasons to go to a different height? I am sure the lower the height, the more accessible the car corners are to reach.
next question, does anyone have instructions for making scenery on L-girder benchwork? Looks like lots of open holes to fill...
All help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks John
My 2 cents regarding layout height... One portion of my layout is at about mid-chest (around the top of the strike zone). This shortens my useful reach, but it also makes it easy to sit on a rolling stool underneath to work on wiring and gives a more interesting viewing perspective. It might also be a bit high if being viewable by small children was a consideration. The other portion is about waist high - easier to work on from above, but I need to work on my back on a creeper to do things underneath, which I don't enjoy.
When I do it over, I'm not sure which way I'll go.
It's a personal decision based on reach, mobility, and preferred viewing angle. Perhaps it would be useful to set up a table with some trains on it and raise/lower the height and see what works best for you.
Re scenery on L-girder benchwork... Mine is L-girder (quick, strong, uses less wood), but I haven't yet done any scenery on it. However, I laid plywood over it, so there are no holes to fill unless I create them. If you don't go the plywood route, it seems like gaps can be filled with thin plywood or rigid foam panels.
My plan has been to build raised areas using foam, and cut openings where depressions are needed. Sadly, due to inertia I can't report on how well that is working out.
@Mallard4468 posted:My 2 cents regarding layout height... One portion of my layout is at about mid-chest (around the top of the strike zone). This shortens my useful reach, but it also makes it easy to sit on a rolling stool underneath to work on wiring and gives a more interesting viewing perspective. It might also be a bit high if being viewable by small children was a consideration. The other portion is about waist high - easier to work on from above, but I need to work on my back on a creeper to do things underneath, which I don't enjoy.
When I do it over, I'm not sure which way I'll go.
It's a personal decision based on reach, mobility, and preferred viewing angle. Perhaps it would be useful to set up a table with some trains on it and raise/lower the height and see what works best for you.
Thank you for the input, I like the idea of setting up a table and adjusting the height with some trains on top. Reach is hopefully a secondary consideration as I am looking at an overhead creeper. I am 6' tall and working below decks is more of a concern as it will be a hard hat area for sure.
Again Thanks for the suggestions!
John
