Now comes the F3 from 3rd Rail

Ron,

We are in the process of discussing the project now that the announcement is out.  There is a lot to discuss and these projects do evolve once we dive into details.  Look for more detail soon!

DaveJfr0 posted:

As-built paint for Phase IV F3's for Southern is the green/yellow, (I believe units 4173-4206).

All SOU Phase IV had the big numberboards (not FT-style) and FARR SS grilles. 

I'm guessing since in general, an EMD Phase IV F3 almost looks identical (minus the grids?) to F7's, it's an easy tool modification (if at all) for Scott to offer these late F3's. For Southern at least…basically buying an F7 with F3 road numbers.

If Scott decides to offer the Black Tux Scheme with all of the spotting features below, I could be persuaded to get some. 

Black Tux spotting features includes:

• M5 horn and Firecracker antenna (put it in the box)
• dynamic brake fan near cab
• maintenance walkway on side/grab irons on the nose,
• de-skirted fuel tanks
• Rooftop Cooling Coils, much easier to make than the E8 air tanks (Unfortunately the F3A's with rooftop air tanks are an earlier phase..Phase II early with the chicken wire and other fun stuff.

Several (if not all) Southern F3 units were rebuilt to F7 specifications during the early to mid 1950s at Spencer Shops. Some of these passenger F3s were rebuilt to have their air tanks moved to the roof and a larger water tank mounted beside the fuel tank. Because of this, they looked liked a F7 from the outside, sans the stainless steel FARR grilles. If any were Phase II with the chicken wire, they were changed to the F7 vent style between the portholes. I have never seen an image showing a Southern unit as delivered showing the chicken wire, but Intermountain made them in black a few years ago for HO modelers.

The best way to model a Southern unit with air tanks using a Phase IV body would be F7 6119. Not sure when the tanks were installed, but it would be very close to the actual unit.

I have included some images found on the net to show what Southern F units looked like with roof air tanks.

I noticed 3rd Rail listed Seaboard Air Line. They purchased F3 Phase II units with the chicken wire. I think one unit was wrecked, but not sure what phase body was used to replace the unit. Usually it was the F9 body style, totally different from a F3 Phase IV. 

As for the Atlantic Coast Line, their F3s were numbered 336 - 347. They previously bought F2s, numbered 324 - 335. they bought these F3s in 1948, and started buying F7s by 1950. Looked identical except the number series. I will have to check further tonight when I can look over my reference books.

Larry Neal posted:

DaveJfr0 posted:

As-built paint for Phase IV F3's for Southern is the green/yellow, (I believe units 4173-4206).

All SOU Phase IV had the big numberboards (not FT-style) and FARR SS grilles. 

I'm guessing since in general, an EMD Phase IV F3 almost looks identical (minus the grids?) to F7's, it's an easy tool modification (if at all) for Scott to offer these late F3's. For Southern at least…basically buying an F7 with F3 road numbers.

If Scott decides to offer the Black Tux Scheme with all of the spotting features below, I could be persuaded to get some. 

Black Tux spotting features includes:

• M5 horn and Firecracker antenna (put it in the box)
• dynamic brake fan near cab
• maintenance walkway on side/grab irons on the nose,
• de-skirted fuel tanks
• Rooftop Cooling Coils, much easier to make than the E8 air tanks (Unfortunately the F3A's with rooftop air tanks are an earlier phase..Phase II early with the chicken wire and other fun stuff.

Several (if not all) Southern F3 units were rebuilt to F7 specifications during the early to mid 1950s at Spencer Shops. Some of these passenger F3s were rebuilt to have their air tanks moved to the roof and a larger water tank mounted beside the fuel tank. Because of this, they looked liked a F7 from the outside, sans the stainless steel FARR grilles. If any were Phase II with the chicken wire, they were changed to the F7 vent style between the portholes. I have never seen an image showing a Southern unit as delivered showing the chicken wire, but Intermountain made them in black a few years ago for HO modelers.

The best way to model a Southern unit with air tanks using a Phase IV body would be F7 6119. Not sure when the tanks were installed, but it would be very close to the actual unit.

I have included some images found on the net to show what Southern F units looked like with roof air tanks.

I was using my Withers SOU Diesel book exclusively with the info and 20ish pictures to do preliminary research for myself. Yes, all were rebuilt to F7 specs on the inside, but a lot of the Phase II units still retained chickenwire, etc.  Phase IV never had chicken wire from photo evidence I have (ATSF spec sheets for their own units I quickly read online also agree) , but earlier F3 phase units did and retained them for the most part, depending on unit. The book has photos of as-delivered or close to as-delivered paint with the chicken wire, etc, but again those are not Phase IV units. The Phase IV  units (late 1948+) came delivered with the stainless.

As for modeling the rooftop air tanks, I'd need to go look at other photos not in the book. I didn't want to spend much time on this until Scott and his team shore up what they plan on doing.  #6119 might be it for tanks, but since Scott's builder tries to minimize differences on units, all built models would need the tanks...not sure if there are any other numbers out there with the tanks (I think 6119 was a specil unit, I'd have to read the roster notes again). The F3's seem to be the mostly widely-varied when it comes to unit detailing.

IIRC, rooftop tanks for some units came around 1956, but that might have been the fuel-tank deskirting. I'd have to check my book again, but its not with me at this time.  In any case, I'll wait and see what Scott and his design team decide for phase and go from there.

Note to other SOU modelers, the coils are not the same as rooftop air tanks.  I have modeled those on my MTH F7 units already.

In any case, we will have the green vs. black debate on what to do for these units or offer both and see which one makes it to 20 first.

In any case, I may just wait and do what I was originally thinking to model the chickenwire F3's (to get variety in my F unit fleet), get some AtlasO Phase II F3's and do some heavy modifications to get them where they need to be, though I don't like the thought of super-detailing/modding 4 F3A units.  I am kind of thinking I want 4 F3A units and 2 F3B units to mix into various freight consists, but I am in no rush, I have so many other projects to get off my workbench first. Off the top of my head, I have 2 SD35s, 2 GP35s, S12, RS1, RS3, Some Geeps, 3 or so SW9's, a 44T, 2 SD45's, and 2 GP30's...all sitting in various states of taken-apart-ness on my workbench that I need to finish before I contemplate any more serious locomotive detailing projects. Oh and I forgot, I have a bit of detailing work to do on my 3 SOU E8's too.  Maybe I'll finish all of that by the end of 2020...we'll see. My SD9's have been apart since I got them and I finally found the time to finish all the detailing/weathering.  Hope to have them back together and running in a week or two, with or without them fuel breather pipes.

Also, IIRC, AtlasO cancelled their SAL F3's...so yea, guess those are not going to sell.

David,

I think we are on the same page, just talking about different chicken wire. You are referring to the wire for the intake grills below the roof, which did remain. What I referred to in my post was the chicken wire found on Phase II units between the two portholes, which I am not sure Southern ever had any (but Intermountain modeled). I have that book too, and also check southern.railfan.net for additional images as well. 

It would be nice for 3rd Rail to make Southern F3s after the 1950s era rebuilds, but not sure if the market would generate 20 - 30 orders. Maybe he could look at making a standard Southern F3 Phase IV (F7 clone) and an F3 with the roof tanks as an AA pair. Would definitely be a one of a kind set!

Larry,

Yep same page.  Yes the chicken wire between the portholes...I would need to look at some more photos again, but I also don't think they existed.  When I mentioned heavily modifying the AtlasO units, filling that area in with styrene and correct louvers would be part of the heavy modifications I don't really want to do.  In either case, I have too much to work on to even contemplate that work at this time. I am not sure if the E8 tanks are the same as the F3 tanks, but that would be interesting to know.

Jonathan,

Please, please make a note to make sure the pointed roof overhangs are corrected on the F-3's , especially the "B" units, as they were incorrect on both the FT's an F-7's for most roads.  Understand the reasoning behind going with the phase IV, as the most major change from the F7 shell would be chicken wire instead of stainless farr grills. Early phases with full chicken wire down over the portholes would be great if possible. 

BH

Scott and I have chatted a bit and the phase IV is not necessarily set in stone.  There should be some images going up on the website very soon of each road name for everyone's consideration and thoughtful criticism.  As always these are a work in progress until it goes into full design.

Jonathan - cool.  Depending on Phase, and units models modeled (I know site says green, but if Scott gets enough requests for black, and maybe w/ or w/o rooftop air tanks), then I am in for 4 A's and 2 B's.

For The Grand Trunk Western the choice should be the 1960's era diagonal stripe scheme. 

 

 

Andrew

 

 

How many months before more details are released?

Details should be forthcoming by the end of the month.  With PAs in production, the research on the F3s still needs to be completed.  Of all of the F-units, this one will be the hardest to figure out as there were so many variations beyond even the so-called 5 phases of production.  Compiling that information across all the proposed road names and then determining what is feasible versus what is not in a single production run is a huge endeavor. 

Need to correct the shape of windshield and headlight. Look at Athearn newest F-units based upon Highliner tooling

Interested in a C&NW, depending upon the paint scheme.  No to "Zito yellow/safety yellow/pantone 102c/etc." or whatever the terrible yellow was that Lionel used on their last F7's.  Yes to a traditional yellow/green scheme to match the MTH/K-line bi-level cars...

Uh Rex, the gem models f3 is very difficult to convert to three rail. 

They have posted artwork for some of the roads.  I was going to order Chicago Great Western A and B units.  Unfortunately I have no interest in what is shown.  Was hoping for the as delivered paint scheme. 

Send me some photos of the scheme you are looking for.  This project is still fluid on design decisions.  PAs are the focus now.  My email is in my profile.

 

I was hoping we would see the SF freight "cat whiskers" scheme. 

Was hoping for something closer to this scheme:"

Vs

I'll probably be passing.  

As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking for an ABA set with at least two powered units and all with sound.  To meet my sound requirement will probably require buying three powered units which is OK.

There is no current production PRR F3 set.  The last one done by Lionel was in 2005 and with only one TMCC/powered A unit.  MTH did a PS-2 ABA in 2006 with two powered units but only the lead A with sound.  Atlas did not do a PRR with their F3 releases.  It seems like the market could use a PRR set with modern electronics.

As Jonathan stated, there is a lot of F3 variants and I'm not sure if the PRR's variants matched up with other roads.  What I know I would buy is an F3 ABA set with full chicken wire at top third panel to distinguish it from an F7.  Not knowing GGD's strategy, the Phase III seems to be a good choice because they may be able to use a modified F7 tooling with the four horizontal louvers and low pan top of the F7 body.  A Phase II (late) with low pan tops but replacing the louvers with chicken wire might also be doable, and would be preferred by me.  The paint scheme needs to be as delivered as shown below.

 

Jonathan Peiffer

E-mail has been sent.  Thanks

Again notice the PRR OEM Numberboard/class light bezel that has yet to be done in o gauge correctly. NONE of the MTH and Lionel Scale PRR F3's have made them with the correct OEM Numberboard/classlight bezel. 

Apparently these are too pricey for Rich Trowbridge. He has not made any comments or requests for the Grand Trunk Western F3/F5 from 3rd Rail. 

Andrew

Note the straight "passenger" pilot on the PRR F3 in the photo.  With the exception of a handful of  initial order F3 and E7 A units, follow on orders by the PRR for F3, F7, FP7, E7, and E8  A units specified straight pilots equipped with coupler shrouds.  Coupler shrouds were removed in the 1955/6 time frame. With the many detail and lettering variations/modifications on PRR F units over the years, IMO the only way to achieve a reasonable degree of prototype accuracy is to first pick the batch being modeled, and then adjust the details to the time frame being modeled using dated photos.   Fortunately a wealth of information on PRR F units can be found in a lengthy 2 volume article in the PRRT&HS's The Keystone several years ago.

The GN Man posted:

Is it correct that the WP only had the passenger version F3's?  I will be in for a WP F3B unit to run with my FP7. 

Yes, you are correct.  WP bought A-B-B F3's for passenger service only. 

However, the Sacramento Northern, WP's former interurban subsidiary, bought three F3A's from the New York, Ontario & Western when the NYO&W went bankrupt in 1957.  One of those was transferred to WP and renumbered 801-D, a passenger unit.  The other pair of F3A's worked in freight service on Sacramento Northern, wearing WP colors and SN lettering.  SN, like other dieselized interurbans, was not a fast freight railroad.

Keystoned Ed posted:

Note the straight "passenger" pilot on the PRR F3 in the photo.  With the exception of a handful of  initial order F3 and E7 A units, follow on orders by the PRR for F3, F7, FP7, E7, and E8  A units specified straight pilots equipped with coupler shrouds.  Coupler shrouds were removed in the 1955/6 time frame. With the many detail and lettering variations/modifications on PRR F units over the years, IMO the only way to achieve a reasonable degree of prototype accuracy is to first pick the batch being modeled, and then adjust the details to the time frame being modeled using dated photos.   Fortunately a wealth of information on PRR F units can be found in a lengthy 2 volume article in the PRRT&HS's The Keystone several years ago.

All PRR F3's except 9518 and 9519 had the so called "passenger" straight pilots. 9518 and 9519 had "freight" style pilots. ALL PRR F3's had STREAMLINED number boards. Road numbers 9500 through 9505 had high fans. The only F's that I am aware of that came without coupler doors (shrouds if you like) were 9518 and 9519 which were (for a time) equipped with shop made coupler doors. 9518 and 9519 were ordered for pusher service on the CURVE. Other than those two engines, ALL PRR F's (3's and 7's) came from EMD with straight pilots and coupler doors. ALL F7's had the large 45 degree number boards.

HINT: ALL the info you need to know is in the 2 issues of the Keystone that Ed mentions above. Maybe you should contact the PRR T&HS

Simon

 Do 9500 thru 9505 AS BUILT in BRASS, and I'm IN! LOL

 

I'm a member of the PRRT&HS and have both Keystone issues relating to the F3 and F7.  Great organization and a great publication. 

Thanks to those who supplied photos of the various schemes so far!

Thanks Bigjohn for suggesting the SF freight livery.  I model PRR but I've liked the look of the SF freight F units since I was a kid in the late '60s, enough that I reserved a couple of these.

 

My Atlas Q  F3 was a lot of work, I sure Scott will bring you a fantastic rendition. 

 

Received an email from 3rd Rail stating they had details on their web page for the F3.  Checked it out and they are going to produce the Phase IV.  To me the Phase IV looks too much like the F7, so I'm going to pass on this one.  Nice looking engine, though.  Hope they do a Phase III (or earlier) in the future.

Interesting! All Powered units for the F3's. NO dummy units. I see on the website the PRR is being pictured with the 45 degree large number boards! Say it ain't so Otherwise I will have to withdraw my order.

Because the F3 phase IV is so close in looks to the F-7 (Farr Grills and shared details) it would be a natural to do and not require any new tooling.  But, for this reason, I don't think it will sell as well as the F-7's. 

 

BH

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Interesting! All Powered units for the F3's. NO dummy units. I see on the website the PRR is being pictured with the 45 degree large number boards! Say it ain't so Otherwise I will have to withdraw my order.

You are correct, ALL PRR F3's had the smaller streamlined number boards!

Simon

Again, no research has truly started on the F3s.  Phases are still to be determined along with a design matrix to see how to capture accurately the most amount of road names without compromising on prototype fidelity while meeting the design and construction budget.  We should have a better idea of the scope of the project sometime late November maybe?

For PRR, there will be the original number boards.  As you may recall from the E7 project, the DGLE as delivered E7s had the small number boards while the Tuscan versions had large number boards.  Granted they were not the offset number board actually used by PRR, but the Tucsan PA's will have the correct type of number board. 

As always, contributions to the data base of information are always welcome.  My email address is in my profile.

 

Originally from GG1 4877:

Granted they were not the offset number board actually used by PRR, but the Tucsan PA's will have the correct type
of number board.

That's Ok, Bill Davis of American Scale Models has the correct Offset Number board bugeye Marker light combo that can easily fix those E7's!

http://americanscalemodels.com/O?product_id=2163

Here are pics I pulled off Da Bay of an O scale Phase III PRR F3

I think I got this data from one of the Mainline Modeler magazines:

Phase I..January 1945 to June 1947 Same as a F2..small combination numberboards/class lights; 3 portholes and no filters in the middle side course; tall fans; chicken wire screening in three pieces on the upper side course.

Phase II..June 1947 to June 1948 large numberboards; tall fans/countersunk low fans optional; two portholes, center porthole eliminated and substituted with four horizontally slotted air filters between them; larger openings at the rear of the upper course; chicken wire screening covering the upper course and the entire area between the portholes in the middle course.

Phase III..June 1948 to February 1949 large numberboards; Countersunk fans with grill type openings;two portholes with four horizontally slotted air filters sets between them;chicken wire covering the entire upper course only.

Phase IV..August 1948 to February 1949 same as Phase III with a fabricated horizontal stainless steel grill covering the upper course; two portholes with four horizontally slotted air filters sets between them; These were equipped with F7 traction motors and are sometimes referred to as F5's.

Here's SAL 4027:

and SAL 4030:

Fans and filters are the most prominent differences I see.

William McClure's "Atlantic Coast Line In Color" book has a beautiful photo of purple F3A 344 (phase IV) on page 34.  On page 35 there's a color photo of F7A 393, I can't see any external differences between it and F3A 344, except maybe the horns and the color swap on the nose medallion.

Bob Delbridge posted:

I think I got this data from one of the Mainline Modeler magazines:

Phase IV..August 1948 to February 1949 same as Phase III with a fabricated horizontal stainless steel grill covering the upper course; two portholes with four horizontally slotted air filters sets between them; These were equipped with F7 traction motors and are sometimes referred to as F5's.

Bob, Per a couple of sources I have it looks like the first Phase IV engines still had the D17 traction motors when they came out in Aug '48. In Oct '48 they got the D27 motors and became the "F5".  I don't think there is any external difference between the Phase IV and F5.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

 

I really like the Phase II (early) engine.  Who made it?

645 posted:

CAPPilot posted:

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Here are pics I pulled off Da Bay of an O scale Phase III PRR F3

645,

I apologize. I did not look closely at the unpainted F3 to see that it is really a Phase II.  Must be in the wrong box.  I thought the painted one was a different model.  The paint really shows the center panel chicken wire between the two portholes while it is harder to see on the unpainted model.  However, the high, flat-top radiator fans should have tipped me off.

Thanks Ron!!!

Here's a photo by Wiley Bryan of ACL purple F3A 324 and F3B 324B:

BEAUTIFUL!!!