O Scale Locomotive Guide: Berkshires

Alan

I haven't submitted any articles to Allan although I am certainly open to doing so. 

As some others have suggested, just making a sticky for links to all of these threads on the top of the 3RS forum would be great! 

A good Berkshire history Ted and thanks for all your hard work.  Just a few thoughts to add regarding Lionel's reissued K-Line Lima A1 demonstrator.  Lionel released this model with an incorrect tender and has yet to correct the error (when I called their attention to this they basically ignored me).  The tender it comes with is what I believe K-line originally released it with years ago.  It appears to be a B&A passenger tender of sorts.  The tender Lionel uses with its NYC L-2A Mohawk would have been a closer match to what the Lima A1 actually had so why wasn't that taken into consideration?  Maybe I am being overly picky about things but when Lionel charges $1,200.00+ for a scale steam locomotive it should be accurate.  

I do have the MTH Southern 2790 and the P&LE 9401 in my collection.  Both are beautifully executed models and good  runners with excellent sound effects.  I especially like the Southern 2790 in its green and silver paint scheme even though it never existed in real life.  Thanks again and Happy New Year. 

Just a few thoughts to add regarding Lionel's reissued K-Line Lima A1 demonstrator.  Lionel released this model with an incorrect tender and has yet to correct the error (when I called their attention to this they basically ignored me).

There were variations among the tenders built for the early Lima 2-8-4s.  K-Line made tooling for one tender.  To make multiple tools for casting the various tenders would have been cost prohibitive.  Apparently Lionel feels the same way.  That is one of the disadvantages of diecast construction. 

If you really want a specific tender take a look at what Bob2 has done.  To get a model of an ex-B&M Berk as modified my the SP he started with a C&NW model, modified it and provided an SP whale back tender.  Great work Bob. 

Maybe I am being overly picky about things but when Lionel charges $1,200.00+ for a scale steam locomotive it should be accurate.

I especially like the Southern 2790 in its green and silver paint scheme even though it never existed in real life.

Wouldn't it be fun to be working in a model company marketing department trying to figure out what train buyers want! 

They do the best they can with the budgets they have to work with and their best understanding of what we would like to buy. Where there is a gap we can either decide one of the available models is close enough, modify it to our liking or wait for a manufacturer to invest more tooling money.  Fortunately we have quite a number of choices for out of the box dead on models of early Lima, Erie and several AMC Berkshires.

Having purchased the K-Line Lima Berk (for $400; probably way too much for what it is), and having a beautiful line drawing of same from David Weitzman, I am aware of the tender and trailing truck discrepancies.

I see these complaints, and have no sympathy.  Throwing rocks at a supplier is not the right approach - not purchasing the incorrect item would be a better way of going at it.  A purchase means you are at least somewhat satisfied with the bargain.

I have every intention of correcting the flaws on my Lima some day, but its small size relative to everything else in my collection gives me pause.  I am actually tempted to sell it and start from scratch in a scale more in consonance with my track.  

I will not blame K-Line.  It was my decision to purchase the thing, and to keep it when I discovered that hideous boiler belly.  K- Line, and now Lionel and MTH, are making great strides toward truly realistic models.  I am willing to bet that, now that such truly accurate models are coming for the 3-rail crowd, it will not be long before the track starts bothering folks a lot more than the curved top of a tender.

Two-railed, round boiler, motor in firebox.  Looks like a switch engine in comparison to most of my locomotives, but wonderful detail and castings are superb.

This is what the mechanism looks like after new driver tires and motor relocation

That light film of corrosion shows you how often I run trains.  My joy is making them run smoothly, and making them look good.

A great read!  Thanks for all the info and pictures! 

I do have a quick question, though: How do the new Lionel LEGACY Berkshires run on the minimum O-54 curve?  Do they look goofy?  Any issues?  I'm in the process of planning a layout, & due to space reasons 54" curves are probably as large as I can go.  It might be a tough sell to the wife to go larger....  Thanks for any input. 

- Neal

I would go with "less than ideal but tolerable".....FWIW.

I can get some video of mine running on 0-72 and 0-64 later on....if that helps.  Just let me know.

https://ogrforum.com/t...94#38596415723620994

Try going to the above link and scroll down.  Forrest Jerome posted this video and I believe those are 0-54 curves that the 765 is going around.

Thanks!  I suppose that'll probably do, though I wish I could do at least O-60 or O-63, if not larger.  Maybe in time.  First have to get the basement cleaned out & re-done, though.  And the honeymoon out of the way.  And a new (to her) car for the wife....  It'll be awhile.  Should be able to fit an outer loop in FasTrack for around the Christmas tree in O-60, though.

are you limited by space or money/time?

FWIW, many builders wish they would have used wider curves.  All it takes is one large steam engine....or diesel nowadays....for that matter. 

My 072/064 will be getting replaced by 096/088 and 084/076 Ross Sectional Curves.....but that's all I have room for.

Ted Hikel: To answer your question (from December!)... The Hudson and Lima berk were redesigned to have their motors in the firebox, where it belongs.  1,000,000 scale railroaders can't be wrong!  Lionel made three colorful Pacifics (C&A, Crescent, and Blue Comet) which also had the motor in the firebox.  The Crescent might have been based on K-Line tooling.

The K-4 is a tough call... the firebox of Lionel's Odyssey K-4 was much too long.  The K-Line model had nice proportions, but the goofy motor arrangement.  And MTH's was an early effort with undersized driving wheels (perhaps a nod to operation on sharp curves, since hi-rail layouts were still uncommon in 1995.)

Unfortunately Lionel's reissue of the USRA light Mikado is still saddled with the small, cheap motor leaning forward in the boiler.  Lionel showed their new heavy Mikado at York.  I loved the appearance, but when I found out it had the small motor in the boiler, I decided not to order.  No way will I pay $1200 for a loco with a $5 motor!

From what I can tell by peeking under the K-Lionel K4 is that the motor placement is the same but the thing has been re-geared to run very smoothly under Legacy control. This is another Lionel steamer that can be pushed by hand to roll the drivers. First engine I remember Lionel doing that with was the CCII ESE Hudson.

If Ted wants to start a K4 thread, I will pop the shell and snap some pics.

In the immediate term, money & time, but my future layout is bounded by the concrete walls of the house on 3 sides, so space is somewhat of a concern.  O-72 would be...ambitious, but I may be able to work O-63 for the main line. 

The problem is that we'll need to have at least part of the room for useable space outside of the layout.

On second thought, a larger radius curve may be necessary to reduce the grade up to the overpass on the main line....

Neal

I am happy to hear that you have enjoyed this thread.  Thanks for contributing to it.

Are you planning to build your layout around the walls style?  That will get you the broadest curves and longest run in a given space, minimize reach in problems and allow the most space in the middle of the room for people.

Ted S.

Thanks for the info on the Lima Berk and other K-Line/Lionel steam locomotives.  They are an interesting piece of O scale business history as well interesting models in their own right.

If Ted wants to start a K4 thread, I will pop the shell and snap some pics.

Norm

Sooner or later I will be happy to take you up on that offer.  I have one O Scale Freight Car Guide left to restore and a few more new ones before that series goes into occasional update mode as newly tooled models come out.  And I am working on more Locomotive Guides.  One way or another the K4 has to figure into that, either as a thread on Pacifics, Pennsy steam or as a thread just on K4s.  I am shooting for about one new guide a month, say 10 or 12 a year.

So far the Berkshire and Mountain threads seem to have been well received.  I think the next edition of the O Scale Locomotive Guide will take on another seven axle wheel arrangement. 

I understand that threads now will get locked if their is no new post in 6 months.  Feel free to post a photo, info or a question to keep these threads growing and available as an active (and interactive) resource. 

Great reading, thanks Ted; a good education for a 3-rail newbie like me.

If I might add my $0.02, here's a link to the only two Berkshires built in Canada.

#201 & #202 were built by MLW for the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo. 

http://www.thbrailway.ca/steam/graphics/thb201.jpg

These still have the forward mounted motor, likely because being mounted the "traditional" way would have interfered with the whistle steam smoke unit.

Having said that, I believe the motor in the Lionel may still be a bit larger than the original K Line. FWIW there have been no posts about issues with pulling power.

One forum member posted video with 12 scale passenger cars behind it and pulled them without issue. It can still be found on youtube.

I have one of these, great sound and a supersmooth runner.

Yes, I am planning on running the layout around the walls in a sort-of "C" shaped configuration. The issue comes from the turn-arounds at either end pinching off the useable space in the middle.  I was trying to only use about half to 2/3 of the room (that may be pushing it).  Probably using 3/4 of the room if I go up to O-72.  Pretty sure I could get at least a TV, the wife's love seat & chair in if I use O-63 (Atlas) - that'd be 6' wide table to handle the turn-around - not certain w/O-72.  The room's about 12' x 24', with a 6' deep & 8' wide cutout into the long wall (space I plan on using for a small loop & some yard/siding space. I'd only be about 4' out from the back wall w/my main table, but the turn-arounds would use half the length of the room.  I'm willing to sacrifice a little on the prototypical side of things, as long as the engines/rolling stock don't look incredibly goofy or have issues negotiating the turns.  When planning I try to break up my S-Curves w/at least a 5.5", if not 10" straight section. 

Thanks again for all the advice & input!

Early in this post a few commented about the MTH Southern Kanawha. The pictures of Southern Kanawha, 2716 on MTH product page don’t do justice to the detail of this engine; so I overlooked it when it was in the 2010 catalog.  However, when I saw pictures of it on MTH’s Facebook page a few years ago, it became must engine for me to have but by then in 2011 it was sold out at most hobby stores.  However, I finally got it.  I really like the sound and the passenger station announcements of this engine.  It is one of the most detailed engines I have in my collection.  Below are a video and pictures of my own engine as well as pictures of the green Southern Kanawha engine from MTH’s Facebook page.  Ken

If I might add my $0.02, here's a link to the only two Berkshires built in Canada.  #201 & #202 were built by MLW for the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo.

Firewood

The first copy or Trains I ever owned had an article on the TH&B.  They were the largest locomotives in Canada when they were built.  MLW built them because they could use the ALCO patterns from the C&NW Berks without paying the import duties that would have been paid on locos built in the US by Lima.  They were a great example of what an ALCO built NYC Berkshire would have looked like.  One of Bob's Lobaugh models of the C&NW Berks would be the place to start for a TH&B locomotive.

The pictures of Southern Kanawha, 2716 on MTH product page don’t do justice to the detail of this engine; so I overlooked it when it was in the 2010 catalog.

Ken

I think that happens a lot.  The illustrations in both the Lionel and MTH catalogs frequently fail to do the products justice.  If they spent a little more on photography they just might be rewarded by more sales.  Thanks for sharing the photos and video of your Southern Kanawahas.

Ted, I just read your article and was greatly impressed by the level of detail and content.  It must have taken you quite a while to assemble the information prior to posting it here.  Congratulations and keep up the good work.  Looking forward to your next article.

Allegheny

I'm glad that you enjoyed it.  It is fun to put the prototype and model information together.  After the O Scale Freight Car Guide Series I have become pretty good at ferreting out what has been produced and I have discovered some locomotives models that I did not know about.  The Lionel USRA light mountains were locomotives that I had missed.  We'll be sticking with seven axle locomotives for the next installment.  Stay tuned, we cover some more B&O and C&O power in the months ahead.     

I started reading this topic about Berkshires and it dawned on me I have a book by Pacific Fast Mail titled "The Berkshire and Texas Types".  I figured owners were mostly northern or mid-western RRs, but the book shows that the old Norfolk Southern also owned the Berks.  I thought...hey maybe that would be something I wouldn't mind having, just to get away from SAL for a while.

Well, it appears the Berkshires NS owned were a breed to themselves.  The book says NS had Baldwin build 5 of the smallest 2-8-4 engines around.  They weighed in at 335,000 lbs, 25 tons less than the lightest 2-8-4 predecessor.  They also had semi-Vanderbilt tenders on 6-wheel trucks and had trailing booster engines, front-mounted pumps, and slanted cabs.

These were later sold to ASARCO in 1950, then to NdeM in the late 50s, early 60s.

In the end, it doesn't look as if any of the current models come close to the Berks NS owned

I'm pretty sure the DT&I owned some small Berks too.  They were tiny but well-proportioned, good looking machines.  Even a scale model wouldn't look out of place on sharper curves.

If the DT&I and NS were close enough to be made from the same mold, that would further increase the potential sales base.  -Ted

The NS Berks were very much the smallest of they type ever built.  Apparently they had some older bridges that presented anything heavier from being use.

The DT&I locomotives were quite a bit larger and heavier, about 22 tons on the drivers alone.

I saw NKP 759 at Steamtown a few years ago and it was an inspiring sight.  You don't really get a feel for the size of the classic Berk until you see one up close.  I recently bought the MTH model of 759 in American Railroad decoration for the 1969 Golden Spike Centennial.  A great model!

Rolland

K-Line's main reason for that motor was cost. They were looking for anything they could find to undercut the price of similar Lionel locomotives in the marketplace. By substituting a Mabuchi RS-385 motor instead of the USA-made Pittman that Lionel used, they were able to lower the retail price of their locomotive by about $100.

This is testing my memory a bit, but I believe the sand lines are cast into the boiler on the Lionel model, but the manifolds coming from the sand box were cast as a separate brass piece to give the detail in that area some depth. It was always a battle with the builder for add-on detail.

TRW

Really? At the time the Berk was first produced one could easily buy an 8000- series motor directly from Pittman in quantity for under $30.  I was getting prices like that for quantities of 20.  Difficult to see how they could save $100 by replacing a $30 motor with one for three bucks.

But that cannot be the reason for mounting the motor in the cylinder block and making a U-shaped boiler.  That has to be chalked up to bone-headed design team efforts.

Speaking of Berkshires, I just this week married a Lobaugh Berkshire to a 3- rail Williams mechanism.  The result is a very attractive locomotive.  I shall try for decent photos this evening.

Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

Ted,

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that caught the irony in Allegheny48's post.

I can't think of a better post to illustrate the dichotomies that exist in the hobby. I completely understand the guys that want things as accurate as scale modeling allows. And I completely appreciate the guys that buy what appeals to them, regardless if something is a perfect scale model or not.

But there are problems when both viewpoints are expressed by the same individual (and Allegheny48 is hardly unique in this regard.) Exactly what message are you trying to send to the managers making the decisions at today's manufacturers?

TRW

The delta between the cost of the motors is about $25, give or take a buck or two. Typically, in consumer products companies where the vast portion of their sales is via third-party retailers, that equates to a $100 retail price difference.

As for the forward mounting, and this is just a guess on my part, but it might have had to do with using an existing Lionel motherboard for the locomotive electronics. It's possible it wouldn't have fit if located above the front drivers.

TRW

The Lionel Blue Comet and Chicago & Alton locos are derived from the tooling based on the USRA Heavy Pacific.

The Southern Crescent is definitely NOT based on any K-Line tooling, but was new from the ground up. It's a great piece.

Of course, we're talking about Pacifics now, and Ted hasn't done that compilation yet!

TRW

Of course, we're talking about Pacifics now, and Ted hasn't done that compilation yet!

Well, I haven't posted anything on Pacifics yet.  But you just made a valuable contribution to a future thread.

Thanks for sharing your insider knowledge on this and so many other O Scale Guide threads.

My first real conversion from 2-rail to 3-rail:

Ken you are so correct about how the original MTH presentation of the 2716 (20-3188-1) was depicted.  When it was first cataloged it caught my eye until I realized how not to prototypical it was.  It was cataloged in the subsequent catalog issue with revised graphic but still not prototypical.  

I rode the May 29, 1982 excursion out of Charlotte that 2716 pulled.  The next day I took my dad to the station to see her when 2716 pulled the second excursion that week end.  Took pictures of dad standing at the pilot, this was just a few years before he pasted.  Bottom line have been up close I knew what 2716 looked like and MTH graphic depiction was not like it.

Well I was at the local toy train shop the day his order of the 20-3188-1 arrived.  We unpacked one.  It was not like the graphic depictions but pretty much spot on.  Bought it instantly.  It depicts the Claytor bother's Southern steam excursion 2716 Kanawha.

Ron

Great thread with lots of useful info in one place! I'm considering a Legacy Berkshire and was wondering if anyone had any actual photos of either 6-11452 C&O or 6-11453 Erie. I have searched for a while and have not seen either of these. I assume they look similar to their TMCC predecessors but would like to know for sure. I have seen images of the PE, NKP and PM versions.

Randy:  Try searching for videos on YouTube.  I've seen the C&O that you're looking for...but don't recall having seen anyone post the Erie....but that doesn't mean it's not out there.

Thanks! I'll try running through some more YouTube videos and see if I can track them down. The only C&O Berkshires I have been able to find so far are the ones from 2009 and the older TMCC one. I'm hoping the newest version is identical to these two minus the yellow window frames and 'C&O' on the tender and of course road number.

Is the NKP the only modern one that has 'whitewalls?'