Ha! I'm not too fond of the whitewall treatment so I was trying to avoid it. 
At this point for me, aesthetics still plays a big part. The Lionel catalog images aren't the best reference material so I want to see actual photos and video first if I can.
Re: Whitewalls-
It is truly trivial to get rid of white rims on model wheels. It is not nearly as easy to add them, although it is not difficult. Surely you guys would not nix a purchase because of white walls, or the color of window frames?
Re: Whitewalls-
It is truly trivial to get rid of white rims on model wheels. It is not nearly as easy to add them, although it is not difficult. Surely you guys would not nix a purchase because of white walls, or the color of window frames?
I was fine with the yellow window frames but just pointed out that the new one probably doesn't have them. I don't really care for the pinstripe either but that looks unavoidable except for the PE. Maybe I will like it better when I see it. I know that details like these are trivial but I have my preferences.
Randy, I'm not an expert on the C&O. But most of the photos I've seen suggest their Berks a.k.a. "Kanawhas" had a large sand dome AHEAD of the steam dome, as on a postwar 2026.
[Aside: I'm convinced that the C&O Kanawha, with its large sand dome and air aftercooler on the pilot deck inspired retooling of the venerable 1666 into the "2026" circa 1948. If you look past its O27 size, in many ways the 2026 captures the style of real Berkshires better than Lionel's 2-8-4's did!]
Fast-forwarding to 21st Century scale models, MTH's version has the authentic C&O dome arrangement. Lionel's C&O Berk, although handsome, appears to be based on the NKP and Pere Marquette common design with a large sand dome centered near the middle of the boiler. These are pricey locos, so if you're looking for the most accurate model, you might want to hold out for a MTH version. If you don't care about pinpoint accuracy, they're all mechanically sound, fully-featured smooth runners and powerful pullers.
Let me close by saying that I love Berkshires! Even more so than Hudsons, they are the "big, black steam locomotives" in my childhood storybooks brought to life. That squat, chunky boiler set over medium sized driving wheels, big square cab and rugged modern appointments never cease to capture my imagination. The fact that they were used all the way through the transition era and continue to operate in modern excursion service mean that they're at home on any layout! -Ted
Question...i have the MTH 2727 and noticed the tank is longer than a NKP berk actually a full side panel longer. Im thinking they took the Allegheny tank and put a 3 axel truck in the place of the four.....it never looked right to me.....then i thought they used what they had on hand....they wouldnt would they ????.......opinions . i cant find any photos of the big tank with C&O Kanawha...conrail john
Randy, I'm not an expert on the C&O. But most of the photos I've seen suggest their Berks a.k.a. "Kanawhas" had a large sand dome AHEAD of the steam dome, as on a postwar 2026.
[Aside: I'm convinced that the C&O Kanawha, with its large sand dome and air aftercooler on the pilot deck inspired retooling of the venerable 1666 into the "2026" circa 1948. If you look past its O27 size, in many ways the 2026 captures the style of real Berkshires better than Lionel's 2-8-4's did!]
Fast-forwarding to 21st Century scale models, MTH's version has the authentic C&O dome arrangement. Lionel's C&O Berk, although handsome, appears to be based on the NKP and Pere Marquette common design with a large sand dome centered near the middle of the boiler. These are pricey locos, so if you're looking for the most accurate model, you might want to hold out for a MTH version. If you don't care about pinpoint accuracy, they're all mechanically sound, fully-featured smooth runners and powerful pullers.
Let me close by saying that I love Berkshires! Even more so than Hudsons, they are the "big, black steam locomotives" in my childhood storybooks brought to life. That squat, chunky boiler set over medium sized driving wheels, big square cab and rugged modern appointments never cease to capture my imagination. The fact that they were used all the way through the transition era and continue to operate in modern excursion service mean that they're at home on any layout! -Ted
Not an expert. The typical Kanawha has a longer tender than NKP. I believe it is a larger locomotive, too, but not sure. Only real difference between the really big Berks is the dome placement and pilot - maybe headlight and bell. Opinion, from an SP modeler.
To John Penca:
I went online and saw pictures of the actual C&O 2727 on display in St. Louis. A view showing the back of the tender lists the coal capacity at 30 tons and water capacity at 21,000 gallons. NKP and PM Berk tenders held 22 tons and 22,000 gallons so yes the tender would have to be larger to hold the extra 8 tons of coal. So, it appears that MTH is correct. The Alleghenies tenders held 25 tons and 25,000 gallons as per Al Staufer's C&O Power. Hope this helps.
Hey everybody
There seems to be a little confusion about the prototypes upon which some of our accurate O scale berk models are based. Let's take a look back at page one.
Regarding the Lionel C&O (ex-PM) Berks:
After the PM was folded into the C&O in 1947 the first fifteen PM Berks were relettered for the C&O and renumbered 2685-2699. Lionel has offered models of the PM Berks in C&O livery. They are distinguished from the 2-8-4s purchased by the C&O by their PM style boiler tube pilots, center mounted head lights and forward steam domes. They have been offered with two different styles of tender lettering.
And the MTH C&O Kanawahas:
MTH is the only maker of a correct diecast C&O 2-8-4 Kanawha in O scale. While identical to other AMC 2-8-4s in overall dimensions the C&O locomotives have the sand dome in front of the steam dome, a foot board pilot, shielded air compressors mounted on the pilot deck, a low mounted headlight, oval number plate centered on the smoke box door and a larger tender. MTH tooled up to capture all those details. First offered in 2005 the MTH Kanawha is a must have for fans of C&O steam.
The Lionel and MTH C&O 2-8-4s are accurate models of different prototypes. If you are modeling after 1947 get at least one of each. 
Excellent reply/clarification, Ted.
Well I commited the worse act yet. I've got at least six or ten engines waiting for PS installs. I got many more RTR just came in. I'm going into debt further and I want to cut back a bit. So I buy and order even more.
Along comes the '99 MTH release of the #765 NP Berk in 2 rail!
I let it go! 1 bid for 350. Yuck. Congrats to who ever scored that one.
MTH's latest Berk release is not even in 2 rail.
Well to go further off the track....
I bought this three rail version now on an impulse buy.
SOU 2716, 20-3188-1 2005 Volume II
Looks like I'll have to build that three rail loop soon!
There have been some beautiful O scale Berkshires put on the market in regard to boiler and tender detail but it seems that the same level of attention to detail is not paid to the running gear in regard to modeling the drivers and rods.
For instance, one detail often overlooked on most of the O scale Berkshires is the use of tandem rods as shown in the attached photo with the forked end main rod. The Max Gray and US Hobbies NKP engines got it right but even the nice Overland model did not have it.
Ted Hikel- Very nice article on the Berkshires.
I have several photos of the C&O 2756 Berkshire on display in a Newport News, Va. park. There was a good fence around it. Is the engine still there ??
How about a restart on this very informative thread? What scale Berks have been produced since 2015? Lionel has cataloged some very nice Legacy Berkshires for release later this year in several road names including a couple of Fantasy Polar Express versions.
Has MTH put out one later than the 765 Nickel Plate Road from their 2020 catalog? They cataloged 4 of them - 3 Nickel Plate and 1 Pierre Marquette. These had wireless drawbar and quilling whistles but no whistle steam.
I just received this one and she's a beauty! Will get her first rail test tomorrow (Friday) at friend Bob's large layout.
Some threads are worth going back to. This is one of them.
@Ted Hikel posted:The 2-8-4 Berkshire type locomotive is an icon for fans of modern steam locomotives. The wheel arrangement made its debut in the mid 1920s and the last were built in 1949. A total of 611 Berkshire type locomotives were built in North America and most Berkshires were built to one of just three designs. Models of each of those three plus one unique class of Berkshire are available today in O scale.
The original Lima Berkshires
In an era in which many new locomotive designs came from the ideas of a railroad mechanical department the Berkshire type locomotive originated with the Lima Locomotive Works. The first locomotive took shape in steel as a factory owned demonstrator to show railroads what Lima's super power concepts could do for them.
The original Lima 2-8-4 was built in 1924 and numbered A-1. It was an effort by Lima to continue the development they had done with the 2-8-2 Mikado type. The Lima built H-10 class Mikes of the New York Central System had demonstrated superiority over earlier locomotives of the same wheel arrangement by producing more peak horsepower and doing so with greater overall fuel economy. They did this through the use of a large fire box as well as other refinements. The fire box on the H-10 was near the limits of what could be supported by a single axle trailing truck. Lima provided the A-1 with 100 square feet of grate area and a two axle trailing truck to support the huge fire box. The A-1 retained the 63 inch diameter drive wheels of a typical Mikado and it was equipped with a booster engine for starting and low speed heavy hauling. The combination of a powerful boiler, booster engine and medium sized drivers made the A-1 a versatile locomotive that could handle substantial tonnage on grades and make good time with fast freights on the flatter portions of a railroad.
Among Lima's first customers for locomotives based on the A-1 design were the Boston & Albany of the New York Central System and their competitor the Boston and Maine. The new engines worked on the grades of the Berkshire hills, the geographical feature that provided the popular name for the wheel arrangement. The Illinois Central also ordered 50 Berkshire locomotives from Lima and purchased the A-1 itself. All together Lima built over 150 locomotives to their original design between 1926 and 1930.
K-Line produced models of the A-1 type Berkshire in both two rail and 3 rail O scale. Both conventional and TMCC equipped versions were manufactured. Lionel offered three rail models produced from the K-Line tooling in the 2013 Signature edition catalog. The latest Lionel Berkshires come with Legacy electronics and were cataloged in seven road names. The road numbers and 2013 catalog numbers are listed with their respective catalog illustrations.
By 1945 the B&M had received twelve A-B-B-A sets of General Motors FT locomotives. The new Diesel road freight units made some of the Lima Berks surplus to the B&Ms needs. With the war effort swinging to the Pacific there was a great need for motive power on western railroads. Seven B&M berks went to the Santa Fe in 1945. Lionel has represented them with AT&SF 4199 cataloged as 6-11387.
While the catalog shows an A1 class Berkshire for the Santa Fe, that was not what was produced.
The Berkshires of the Boston and Main were classified as T1a (1928) and T1b (1929) https://locomotive.fandom.com/...n_%26_Maine_Class_T1.
More photos
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bmrrhs/46692554581
https://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/bm4024.htm
The Legacy Berkshire produced by Lionel is an excellent representation of the class T1b.
Santa Fe bought 7 Class T1's from the Boston and Main is beef up power during WWII and put into the 4193 class. However, the Santa Fe bought T1a's, not the T1b's. The difference is in the shape of the sand dome among other minor visual differences. Also, the tender is for Santa Fe #4198. Santa Fe #4199 I believe had a smaller tender with 4-wheel bogies. Even though, the Lionel model is not a perfect representation of the Santa Fe 4199, it is still an excellent representation of the T1b Berkshire.
Also, Santa Fe rebuilt #4197 and make it look much more like a Santa Fe locomotive. Brass hybrid candidate?
man i need a berkshire i don't have one yet cuz i'm broke right now
i would love to have multiple
can you make a locomotive guide for the SD70ACe my favorite diesel?
Not new, but new to me is this Weaver brass 3 rail Berkshire in NKP. Got it for a ridiculous price at a TCA auction.
Was able to operate my new NKP Berk this weekend at a friend's large layout. She's nice and smooth and beautiful! Has MTH produced any of them since these from 2021? Mine has a lot of features I've not had on a scale steamer as they are all fairly older pieces. I have the Legacy B&M Berk and a very early MTH Erie Berk that needs the new board repair to operate again. None of them have whistle steam. Neither does this #765 but she does have the cab curtains which are very nice as well as the drop plate between the cab and the tender..
Has Lionel made any recent Berkshires since 2015 or so - That was 9 years ago now!
@prrjim posted:You have neglected to mention that Max Grey imported a nice brass NKP Berkshire in the late 50s. This was scale 2-rail
US HObbies also imported an NKP Berkshire in the 60s and 70s in brass. I think there were more than one run, maybe 2 or 3. This was similar the MG mentioned above but with much better lost wax castings. this is my favorite of the brass ones and a very good runner with a very well-built mechanism. This was only done in 2 rail also.
Weaver also imported a brass one in both 2 and 3 rail. These came painted. They are nice but since they were also done in 3 rail, the front pilot deck was extend and the pilot pulled forward to compensate for the sharper 3 rail curves. This is a very nice conventional runner worth installing your favorite electronics in in 3 rail.
While the newer diecast has gotten very good, I think (opinion here) that the details are sharper and finer on the handbuilt brass models. I think all the brass stuff is hand assembled in smaller runs.
Overland Models made an NKP berk about 1985 in 2 rail brass. It is the best one made.
Would like to see a photo of it HR if possible.
It will really have to pull out all the stops to best this recent MTH Premiere model!
@harley rider posted:Overland Models made an NKP berk about 1985 in 2 rail brass. It is the best one made.
It sure is, a beautiful model.
A 2 rail o scaler lives close to me, his collection is in the millions, no joke. I’ve repaired at least 8-10 OMI Berk’s for him. Gorgeous models with beautiful castings. Sure miss OMI.
Any body able to share some pics of those Overland Models?
Is there room inside for TMCC and a Super Chuffer?
@GG1 4877 posted:Not new, but new to me is this Weaver brass 3 rail Berkshire in NKP. Got it for a ridiculous price at a TCA auction.
Ah - that nice thin brass look. But, like many brass locos, it needs a little "adjustment" - looks from head-on like the boiler is clocked a little to the left.
I miss Weaver and Samhongsa.
I have a R-O-W C&O brass Berk. I believe that Ajin made R-O-W brass. One of those things awaiting an ERR upgrade that'll never come.
As a 2 rail modeler, I like brass steam engines. I just think they look more realistic than the diecast ones. This is just my opinion.
I found one.
More details please, Joe!!
@Berkshire President posted:More details please, Joe!!
Unfortunately (for me), this is a 3 rail pilot model of the MTH 2005 release. I just fired it up and it works!
20-3186-1 is hand written on the box
20-3186-1 | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS (mthtrains.com)
I wish it was 2 rail.
@c.sam posted:Was able to operate my new NKP Berk this weekend at a friend's large layout. She's nice and smooth and beautiful! Has MTH produced any of them since these from 2021? Mine has a lot of features I've not had on a scale steamer as they are all fairly older pieces. I have the Legacy B&M Berk and a very early MTH Erie Berk that needs the new board repair to operate again. None of them have whistle steam. Neither does this #765 but she does have the cab curtains which are very nice as well as the drop plate between the cab and the tender..
Has Lionel made any recent Berkshires since 2015 or so - That was 9 years ago now!
C Sam,
Berks are in the 2024 Vol 1 catalog, not yet been delivered:
http://catalogs.lionel.com/2024/BB/
JohnB
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