Ted, I just read your article and was greatly impressed by the level of detail and content. It must have taken you quite a while to assemble the information prior to posting it here. Congratulations and keep up the good work. Looking forward to your next article.
Allegheny
I'm glad that you enjoyed it. It is fun to put the prototype and model information together. After the O Scale Freight Car Guide Series I have become pretty good at ferreting out what has been produced and I have discovered some locomotives models that I did not know about. The Lionel USRA light mountains were locomotives that I had missed. We'll be sticking with seven axle locomotives for the next installment. Stay tuned, we cover some more B&O and C&O power in the months ahead. 
Very informative. Thanks for posting.
-Greg
-Greg
I started reading this topic about Berkshires and it dawned on me I have a book by Pacific Fast Mail titled "The Berkshire and Texas Types". I figured owners were mostly northern or mid-western RRs, but the book shows that the old Norfolk Southern also owned the Berks. I thought...hey maybe that would be something I wouldn't mind having, just to get away from SAL for a while.
Well, it appears the Berkshires NS owned were a breed to themselves. The book says NS had Baldwin build 5 of the smallest 2-8-4 engines around. They weighed in at 335,000 lbs, 25 tons less than the lightest 2-8-4 predecessor. They also had semi-Vanderbilt tenders on 6-wheel trucks and had trailing booster engines, front-mounted pumps, and slanted cabs.
These were later sold to ASARCO in 1950, then to NdeM in the late 50s, early 60s.
In the end, it doesn't look as if any of the current models come close to the Berks NS owned 
I'm pretty sure the DT&I owned some small Berks too. They were tiny but well-proportioned, good looking machines. Even a scale model wouldn't look out of place on sharper curves.
If the DT&I and NS were close enough to be made from the same mold, that would further increase the potential sales base. -Ted
The NS Berks were very much the smallest of they type ever built. Apparently they had some older bridges that presented anything heavier from being use.
The DT&I locomotives were quite a bit larger and heavier, about 22 tons on the drivers alone.
I saw NKP 759 at Steamtown a few years ago and it was an inspiring sight. You don't really get a feel for the size of the classic Berk until you see one up close. I recently bought the MTH model of 759 in American Railroad decoration for the 1969 Golden Spike Centennial. A great model!
Rolland
If you ever get a chance to see first hand or ride behind NKP 765, do it. It's a glorious site that never gets old.
If nothing else, you can find a LOT of decent to really good video of the 765 on YouTube. Since you've seen the 759, you've got a terrific reference/starting point.
Originally Posted by RLaHaie:
I saw NKP 759 at Steamtown a few years ago and it was an inspiring sight. You don't really get a feel for the size of the classic Berk until you see one up close. I recently bought the MTH model of 759 in American Railroad decoration for the 1969 Golden Spike Centennial. A great model!
Rolland
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:
The K-line Berkshires have an unusual motor arrangement with a small motor placed forward in the boiler rather than aft in the fire box area.
K-Line's main reason for that motor was cost. They were looking for anything they could find to undercut the price of similar Lionel locomotives in the marketplace. By substituting a Mabuchi RS-385 motor instead of the USA-made Pittman that Lionel used, they were able to lower the retail price of their locomotive by about $100.
MTH and Lionel have both made AMC Berkshires and each has designed the tooling to allow them to change details to correctly model several of the specific versions of the AMC Berks. I believe the MTH models use separately applied brass detail parts for the sand lines. Do the Lionel models use separate parts for the sand lines or are they part of the boiler casting?
This is testing my memory a bit, but I believe the sand lines are cast into the boiler on the Lionel model, but the manifolds coming from the sand box were cast as a separate brass piece to give the detail in that area some depth. It was always a battle with the builder for add-on detail.
TRW
Really? At the time the Berk was first produced one could easily buy an 8000- series motor directly from Pittman in quantity for under $30. I was getting prices like that for quantities of 20. Difficult to see how they could save $100 by replacing a $30 motor with one for three bucks.
But that cannot be the reason for mounting the motor in the cylinder block and making a U-shaped boiler. That has to be chalked up to bone-headed design team efforts.
Speaking of Berkshires, I just this week married a Lobaugh Berkshire to a 3- rail Williams mechanism. The result is a very attractive locomotive. I shall try for decent photos this evening.
Originally Posted by Allegheny48:
A good Berkshire history Ted and thanks for all your hard work. Just a few thoughts to add regarding Lionel's reissued K-Line Lima A1 demonstrator. Lionel released this model with an incorrect tender and has yet to correct the error (when I called their attention to this they basically ignored me). The tender it comes with is what I believe K-line originally released it with years ago. It appears to be a B&A passenger tender of sorts. The tender Lionel uses with its NYC L-2A Mohawk would have been a closer match to what the Lima A1 actually had so why wasn't that taken into consideration? Maybe I am being overly picky about things but when Lionel charges $1,200.00+ for a scale steam locomotive it should be accurate.
I do have the MTH Southern 2790 and the P&LE 9401 in my collection. Both are beautifully executed models and good runners with excellent sound effects. I especially like the Southern 2790 in its green and silver paint scheme even though it never existed in real life. Thanks again and Happy New Year.
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:
Just a few thoughts to add regarding Lionel's reissued K-Line Lima A1 demonstrator. Lionel released this model with an incorrect tender and has yet to correct the error (when I called their attention to this they basically ignored me).
There were variations among the tenders built for the early Lima 2-8-4s. K-Line made tooling for one tender. To make multiple tools for casting the various tenders would have been cost prohibitive. Apparently Lionel feels the same way. That is one of the disadvantages of diecast construction.
Maybe I am being overly picky about things but when Lionel charges $1,200.00+ for a scale steam locomotive it should be accurate.
I especially like the Southern 2790 in its green and silver paint scheme even though it never existed in real life.
Wouldn't it be fun to be working in a model company marketing department trying to figure out what train buyers want! 
They do the best they can with the budgets they have to work with and their best understanding of what we would like to buy. Where there is a gap we can either decide one of the available models is close enough, modify it to our liking or wait for a manufacturer to invest more tooling money. Fortunately we have quite a number of choices for out of the box dead on models of early Lima, Erie and several AMC Berkshires.
Ted,
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that caught the irony in Allegheny48's post.
I can't think of a better post to illustrate the dichotomies that exist in the hobby. I completely understand the guys that want things as accurate as scale modeling allows. And I completely appreciate the guys that buy what appeals to them, regardless if something is a perfect scale model or not.
But there are problems when both viewpoints are expressed by the same individual (and Allegheny48 is hardly unique in this regard.) Exactly what message are you trying to send to the managers making the decisions at today's manufacturers?
TRW
Originally Posted by bob2:
Really? At the time the Berk was first produced one could easily buy an 8000- series motor directly from Pittman in quantity for under $30. I was getting prices like that for quantities of 20. Difficult to see how they could save $100 by replacing a $30 motor with one for three bucks.
But that cannot be the reason for mounting the motor in the cylinder block and making a U-shaped boiler. That has to be chalked up to bone-headed design team efforts.
The delta between the cost of the motors is about $25, give or take a buck or two. Typically, in consumer products companies where the vast portion of their sales is via third-party retailers, that equates to a $100 retail price difference.
As for the forward mounting, and this is just a guess on my part, but it might have had to do with using an existing Lionel motherboard for the locomotive electronics. It's possible it wouldn't have fit if located above the front drivers.
TRW
Originally Posted by Ted Sowirka:
Ted Hikel: To answer your question (from December!)... The Hudson and Lima berk were redesigned to have their motors in the firebox, where it belongs. 1,000,000 scale railroaders can't be wrong! Lionel made three colorful Pacifics (C&A, Crescent, and Blue Comet) which also had the motor in the firebox. The Crescent might have been based on K-Line tooling.
The Lionel Blue Comet and Chicago & Alton locos are derived from the tooling based on the USRA Heavy Pacific.
The Southern Crescent is definitely NOT based on any K-Line tooling, but was new from the ground up. It's a great piece.
Of course, we're talking about Pacifics now, and Ted hasn't done that compilation yet!
TRW
Of course, we're talking about Pacifics now, and Ted hasn't done that compilation yet!
Well, I haven't posted anything on Pacifics yet. But you just made a valuable contribution to a future thread.
Thanks for sharing your insider knowledge on this and so many other O Scale Guide threads.
My first real conversion from 2-rail to 3-rail:
Originally Posted by kjstrains:
Early in this post a few commented about the MTH Southern Kanawha. The pictures of Southern Kanawha, 2716 on MTH product page don’t do justice to the detail of this engine; so I overlooked it when it was in the 2010 catalog.
Ken you are so correct about how the original MTH presentation of the 2716 (20-3188-1) was depicted. When it was first cataloged it caught my eye until I realized how not to prototypical it was. It was cataloged in the subsequent catalog issue with revised graphic but still not prototypical.
I rode the May 29, 1982 excursion out of Charlotte that 2716 pulled. The next day I took my dad to the station to see her when 2716 pulled the second excursion that week end. Took pictures of dad standing at the pilot, this was just a few years before he pasted. Bottom line have been up close I knew what 2716 looked like and MTH graphic depiction was not like it.
Well I was at the local toy train shop the day his order of the 20-3188-1 arrived. We unpacked one. It was not like the graphic depictions but pretty much spot on. Bought it instantly. It depicts the Claytor bother's Southern steam excursion 2716 Kanawha.
Ron
Great thread with lots of useful info in one place! I'm considering a Legacy Berkshire and was wondering if anyone had any actual photos of either 6-11452 C&O or 6-11453 Erie. I have searched for a while and have not seen either of these. I assume they look similar to their TMCC predecessors but would like to know for sure. I have seen images of the PE, NKP and PM versions.
Randy: Try searching for videos on YouTube. I've seen the C&O that you're looking for...but don't recall having seen anyone post the Erie....but that doesn't mean it's not out there.
Thanks! I'll try running through some more YouTube videos and see if I can track them down. The only C&O Berkshires I have been able to find so far are the ones from 2009 and the older TMCC one. I'm hoping the newest version is identical to these two minus the yellow window frames and 'C&O' on the tender and of course road number.
Is the NKP the only modern one that has 'whitewalls?'
I believe so....but I'm not 100% certain on that.
For an extra $50, you can get some "spinners" to put on the "whitewalls".
Originally Posted by Randy_B:
Thanks! I'll try running through some more YouTube videos and see if I can track them down. The only C&O Berkshires I have been able to find so far are the ones from 2009 and the older TMCC one. I'm hoping the newest version is identical to these two minus the yellow window frames and 'C&O' on the tender and of course road number.
Is the NKP the only modern one that has 'whitewalls?'
