Old Driver Identification and New Locomotive

Max Grey I think made a brass model of that loco in the 60s.    Might be easier to find one of those.     3 rail manufacturers have a tendency to overlook minor details like driver size.

PRRJIM nice to met you.  Your right Max Gray Made the 3460 class but it is rather scarce.  There was on evilbay about a month or so ago, if I remember right the starting price was over $2000.00, way out of my price range. 

The seller mentioned there was only 20 imported, weather true or not I don't know, all I know is it was the first one I have seen for sale in a lot of years I have been looking . 

By your name you must be a Pennsy fan,  I am rather fond of Pennsy steam myself.

Best Regards

Robert

https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/

They look like Lobaugh.  You are on the right track; the MTH drivers are strangely insulated.  You may need to make frame and side rods.  For sure measure the cylinder block - you may find it seriously undersize.

Consider a 653-6 NWSL gearbox.  You can re-adjust the bar code to keep four chuffs with white paint.  Been there . . .

Even the Max Grey didn't have exactly 84" drivers they come out to about 81"- 82" ,undersizing drivers a little isn't uncommon. A compensation for larger flanges I guess. Id guess the MTH has too short a driver wheel base.      ( cTr....Choose the Right )

BOB2 and STEPHEN BLOY and everyone else, thanks for the replies.  It looks like a frame , Trucks and Siderod replacement among other things will be in order to get this old girl looking right. Below is more photos showing how far off MTH was on the driver size.

As far as I can tell the tender isn't to shabby and the basic body of the locomotive is not to bad either, still a lot of mods will be in store for it.  I just hope I will be up to the task and with this forums help I will. Hopefully I will be able to produce a locomotive I will be proud of.

I tested it in 2 rail mode and it ran half way decent even with my Old Lionel ZW for power that I converted to do DC 2 Rail.

Best Regards

Robert

https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/

I have a stupid question. If you are going through all that extra work to make a new frame for the larger diameter drive wheels, have you checked to see if that MTH model of a Santa Fe 3460 class Hudson is dimensionally correct, overall?

Some years ago Weaver did the ATSF streamline[ Blue Goose]  Hudson in 2 rail and it to had undersized drivers .

As a comment from somebody who would want to go the other way with a number of two rail models, and who is not even a fan of Hudsons, l vaguely think that maybe l remember there was a Pecos River Brass AT&SF offering with a 4-6-4 wheel arrangement?  If that is wrong, .....Sorry..  They may not be common or cheap, either.

I passed one up at $300 at a local hobby shop.  It seemed flimsoid to me.

Bob is correct, the Hudson wasn't one of their better models.  Oh yeah, and that's just an opinion!

Jay

Several models were addressed above....Whose/which one was $300 and flimsy?

Hot Water you’re absolutely correct it would not be worth my time to rework the rest of this engine if it was not dimensionally correct.

Odd thing is the tender and main body seem to be pretty close, the funkiness seems to come from the frame and driver locations and the dimensionally incorrect cylinders. I think it would make a great looking locomotive with a lot of work.

I guess it boils down to how bad you want something , I have `loved the 3460 class Hudson’s since I was a kid, my Dad and I whenever we would go to Topeka would always stop and pay our respects to 3463 and for me those 84 inch drivers were always a site to behold.

As far as the dimensions here is some pictures comparing the MTH 3464 with an O scale dimensional drawing of 3460 also known as the Blue Goose, if you look at the drawing it shows some of the location points of some of the parts hidden by the shrouding. The MTH loco measure out and look right on with the drawing, except of course before mentioned parts.

Best Regards

Robert

https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/

I did exactly what you are proposing on an MTH NYC Hudson.  I also did the Lionel FEF, but used USH drivers.  The Lionel cylinders looked ok.  Sold the Lionel mech on eBay for $25.

I think you will be happy with the result.  Capture a set of AN Mountain cylinders for it.

Are you sure you want to do this?There are a number of things that could go wrong here.And you could void the warranty.

Franky-OGEE I may eventually get one of those Weaver Blue Goose to revamp as well.

COLORADO HIGHRAILER, BOB2 and JAY C I have one of those PECO RIVER BRASS 4-6-4 3450 class Hudson’s and I love it, it runs great on my outdoor layout, It is scaled right and the LFM Disc Drivers look cool. The 3450 class Hudson’s were smaller than the 3460 class Hudson’s, they were more of a hopped up 3400 class 4-6-2 with a 4 wheel trailing truck and 79inch drivers in their later rebuilds.

Of course I agree with everyone it’s a matter of taste and opinion.

If you get a chance check out my blog I have a picture and a video of my 3451, made a mistake though it is not completely on the track when I took the picture of it,  I have been to lazy to change it out.

Best Regards

Robert

https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/

BOB2 thanks for the tips on the ALL Nation cylinders and other stuff, you made me glad I am not the only person who will take a perfectly good running engine and hack into it because you don't think it looks right.  Do you have any pictures?

Best Regards

Robert

https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/

SEABOARDM2 I think at this point a warranty will be the lest of my worries, as far as things going wrong you know the old saying you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Best Regards

Robert 

https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/

Robert,

The best of luck modifying the model.  Yes, the drivers are undersized and the rods are completely wrong.  I'm interested in the boiler dimensions of the MTH model.  What is the diameter of the smokebox and the rest of the boiler running back to the firebox.  If the model's boiler dimensions are very close to the prototype, then I feel that you picked a good candidate for modeling an accurate model.

As for the drivers that you intend to replace the undersized MTH drivers with; they might be the correct diameter (84"), but don't forget to take into account the axle spacing of the drivers when laying out the frame.  Model drivers have much larger flanges (exception being those who model P48) and you will have to see if the 3 pairs of connected drivers will fit between the rear of the cylinders and the front of the firebox without hitting the adjoining flanges.

Please keep us all posted of your progress

Steve

There are some pictures of Bob's frame for his Hudson under the thread for 17/64 scale looks great. I bumped it forward and added a little extra, look on page two.   ( cTr....Choose the Right )

Thanks Stephen.  I just realized I have no photos of the Lionel FEF as 2-railed.  Maybe a photo shoot in the next couple days.  Here is the MTH Hudson.  Those are 80" Lobaugh drivers, with the HCWT modified per NYC prototype with a jeweler's saw and some files.  Frame is brass, cylinders are AN Mountain, and l used all the rods and hangers from the MTH.  I adjusted the flywheel so I get four chuffs out of the PS-2, and some day I will get a factory reset and be able to do the bell and whistle.  Or I may rip the PS-2 out and put a Tsunami in.  Herewith:

Bob  I hope you don't mind but I thought your frame might look great with your Hudson. So this is Bobs frame for the above model. This makes it really easy to find.       ( cTr...Choose the Right )

Don't mind at all.  The only repetition I do mind is when folks endlessly repeat stuff in the same thread. ( read: endlessly = mindlessly).  I even considered re-posting that here.  I will disassemble the FEF for a similar shot.

Stephen Bloy

Thanks for posting that photo Bob2's frame and drivers.

Bob2...can you add any comments on how you fabricated that frame?  Did you publish an article on that project?

Steve

No - but my frame construction technique is well known, both to OGR readers and OSN.  I use 1/4" x 5/8" brtass bar and brass F/H machine screws.  Once all machining is done and I am happy, I solder the entire thing together and sand off the screw heads.  Looks a lot like a Lobaugh frame when I am done.

I did not disassemble the FEF as promised,  but did get some side shots.  In the photos, I think all will agree that the Lionel drivers look better than the USH, but at least I did not have to machine eight steel tires.  I have tired of making tires!

Here is a broadside:

And for reference, the original before the new frame, drivers, and side rods.  I think I should add that the patterns for those side rods were my very first attempt at lost wax patterns, and I have gotten considerably better at it!

Steve thanks for the advice, I hope it will be half as good as BOB2.

BOB2 your work is fantastic!  Beautiful locomotives!  Hope you don't mind if I ask you for advice when I get ready to start on this project.

Best Regards

Robert