Pennsy Question

I've always been told that true Brunswick Green is almost black. Add to that road/smoke grime, it wouldn't look green very long. And I'm not sure if the GG1s are the same shade, because they always looked green, but they may have been cleaned regularly.

I've always heard that the term "Brunswick Green" was a railfan/hobbyist term. The true technical PRR name was Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, i.e. DGLE (if I have that in the correct order). 

You might try the  PRRpro site on Yahoo. Those gentlemen have several formulas for mixing your own colors, just don't mention oscale help dries up faster than a stranger in a small Hungarian town. All in all Prr paint is a tough subject seems there is and was a standard but it changed as paint became more durable. So as I read it the newer colors are correct and the older ones are too. To me the older more red Tuscan is more to my desire and Brunswick green will always be 5gallons of bright green mixed into 55 gallons of black. Any body got a blunt end observation kit or otherwise they are willing to part with? Got lots of virgin kits and stuff to trade.

Sorry but it really wasn't a 55 gallon drum of black paint with some green added. The true chemical make-up was a green copper compound base "preservative" paint, which tended to look even greener as it aged. 

 

But  Hw that's the old wives tail I was told as a kid so I'll perpetuate the myth. The paint you describe sounds lie the copper green protective stuff we used on the Joslyn castle bronze greenhouse about 4 years ago it just keeps turning prettier each year like the patina on a bronze statue

Exactly. Anybody who's ever mixed paint would know that even if you mixed in 5 gallons of white paint into 55 gallons of black--you'd still have black paint.

I have a copy of an article printed in the PRRT&HS Journal many years ago.   I don't remember the date, but it lists the painting directions for PRR steamers as of that date.   

 

the directions definitely called for the boiler, cab, cylinder covers, tank body etc to be painted DGLE.    The frame and under workings were to be painted black.   Esssentially the boiler everything above the running boards was to be DGLE, everything below was to be black.    The exception was the cylinder covers I think.

 

On the tender, the tank body was to be DGLE and the trucks and frame black.   

Pinning down colors is always difficult. Colors are affected by weather, service, fast running, slow running, dust/dirt from the right-of-way, the environment - such as ex-GTW 0-8-0's at Sterling Steel - and a host of other factors. And then colors vary according to photo processing, exposures, printers' ink and whatever befalls them on the Web.

 

As an example I'll post two photos of the NS Reading Bee-Line Heritage Unit that I found online. In one photo the yellow is dark; in the other, light.

 

 

 

Here is a photo of 1067 MU'ed with the Jersey Central Heritage Unit. The yellow is another shade and weathering is evident on the trucks and fuel tank.

getting to the original question:

Yes PRR steam engines were painted DGLE (you have the correct term Jack) from the boiler/running boards up. the reason why your model engines look too green is because the paint rendition used on them by the builder is too light to be anywhere near the correct dark color.

OK, but what do those Reading Railroad painted modern diesel units have to do with the original question about PRR DGLE?

Attached is a copy of the published by the PRR historical society.   I scanned my hard copy.   The notes say this was the standard in 1929.

 

 

I vote for this being the most popular perennial topic.  I like the redder Tuscan (as opposed to brown) and mix my own Brunswick green to suit my taste - which means it has a slight green hint.  Obviously, PRR green is a lot more black than my preference.

Here are photos from the Altoona museum from this past weekend. I imagine they have been repainted, but FWIW...

 

Good evening everyone, thanks for everyone replies on this question.

I just found it unusual for a major railroad to go thru the trouble of painting their engines a color that is so close to black especially back in a time when there was not that many colors to choose from.

 

I remember a program I seen about Henry Ford making the comment that you could get his Model A in any color as long as it was "black".

 

Thanks again for all the replies.

Bob2 whats your source for PRR Tuscan? I am almost out of floquil and have a gazillion cars to paint this winter. Would really like to match some of the Vintage doorstops I've refurbished, but the color is maroon? brown?

So that they would not use the same color as New York Central? 

 

Just kidding, of course.  But, seriously. weathering the engines with plenty of soot would probably eliminate any concern about the paint color.  I must disclaim: I never did see an actual PRR steam engine in service, but they generally appear to be pretty grimy, especially after World War II.

Did you read my explanation of what DLGE really was? The PRR used it more as a preservative as well as a "paint". 

Hot Water,

 I agree with what you have posted.

Years ago when my family vacationed in Lancaster, we saw a GG1, in the RR museum.

I don't know what the color was called, but it certainly was a green color, especially up close.

I would imagine, with most of the natural environs, grease and smoke of the locomotives, normal wear and tear and weather, that the painted color became grimy, or faded, causing the appearance of a different color, than the norm.

Just, look under the hood of a car, not even with its' motor on, and I guarantee there will be some grime on one's hand(s).

Ralph 

Regardless of the color, it's nice to have most of the model steam locomotives on the shelves somewhat the same color and finish. IMO.  There have been discussions about the oxide red cab roofs also.  The model "Pennsylvania" gold always seem to be pretty close across manufactures.

Can't remember for sure, but the PRR stopped using the red stuff on the cab roofs, sometime in the early to mid 1940s.

I grew up in central PA along the PRR's Middle Division and would conservatively guess I saw thousands of their locomotives.  It wasn't till I was in my late 30's and started buying books about the PRR that I realized what I had always seen as black was, in fact, DGLE or Brunswick Green.

Even when new, a PRR engine looked black when I saw one.  When they were dirty or faded, they always appeared to have been black.

And other than new PRR, the only other clean engines I ever remember seeing were run through CB&Q or UP locomotives (mid 1960's, of course).

Curt

Mark

 

 

 

Here is a comparasion of the paint colors on two PRR 44 Ton units.

 

 The front unit is 9331 and is probably in Brunswick Green circa 2006 paint or best guess.

 

9339 is behind in DGLE the specified color for the 44 ton units circa 1993 paint per the PRR blueprints. Look closure and you can see test panels of modern DGLE painted under the engineers window. It is a test panel of Modern DuPont mix of the original DGLE DuLux color formula. The trucks are painted in gloss black. there is very little difference between black and the DGLE. If you hold your head just right on a sunny day you can see the green in it. FYI DuPont says there is green and yellow in the paint but I don't have the percentages.

 

To answer your question on what colors were used on engines, I've been digging around for is there were not not a Brunswick green engines by design, "until they were dying and painted what ever and used what was one the shelf". is the best response I have gotten. I would think some passenger train would have been done at some point like the GG's, but just a guess on my part, and that was in later years.

 

On the red oxide roof's I have seen the 44 tonners done with red roof's. reasons I was given were for lower heat in the cab, which I totally agree. The other reason is dirt, they could paint a roof with plentiful red oxide paint than with the more expensive DGLE.

FYI Chrysler offered a very good looking Metalic DGLE like color on the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee. In any condition the car looks black, get it out in the sun and it is dark metallic Green.  Good looking paint.

Jamie

 

Hello Jamie, thanks for the explanation.

Also thanks to everyone that commented on this question.

With regard to PRR painting standards for postwar steam locomotives.  I have a copy of a 1952 era painting instruction obtained from the state archive and at that point in time the entire cab was specified to be painted DGLE.  None of the modern era locomotives (J1, J1a, Q1 ,Q2,S1, S2, T1) were delivered with red cab roofs.  Base on close examination of color photos it seems the red cab roof practice ceased along with other economy moves during WWII).  However several PRR locomotives selected to haul postwar excursions were "dolled up" with red cab roofs.

 

When you see a color photo of a freshly shopped Pennsy steam or diesel locomotive on a sunny day it is easy to spot the difference between areas painted black and those painted DGLE.

If you want to know what REAL black is, look at what Penn Central did to the GG1's after the merger.  See if you can find videos of the RFK funeral train.

Ed yes you are right on the black vs. DGLE. When we repainted the walk way decks next to the DGLE it draws out the green in the DGLE. It is subtle but there. Very difficult to photogragh on what we have done so far but hopefully noticable when we paint the whole thing.

 

Jamie