Postwar 773 tender (1960's)

"Close" and "spaced out" lettering applies to Lionel postwar tenders.

I'm not aware of that on 1964-1965 773's. In 1964, tenders were lettered PENNSYLVANIA; in 1965, NEW YORK CENTRAL.

I do recall what you stated, that there is a variation with close spaced letters.  It may be from Doyle's Standard catalog of Lionel 1942-1969, but I don't have access to it right now.  If I do find it, I will reply here.

Old Greenberg's lists a second 1965 version " tender has larger NEW YORK CENTRAL lettering. Possibly represents the earliest 1965 production. "

Bruce

Charlie,

Are you talking about this one?

If so, there's reference to it in both of the Greenberg books on "Rare & Unusual" as well as "Selected Variations."

In both cases, the books are wrong. It's an MPC replacement shell from 1970-71. It utilizes the hot stamping from the 1970 8041 2-4-2 steam locomotive. This loco used a shorter 1130-style tender -- hence the more "squished" lettering.

This is one of three interesting MPC replacement tender shells from the period.

I hope this helps.

TRW

Thanks to all, especially Todd.

I guess its not too hard to believe that it is an early MPC tender shell. All of the books on Lionel do contain errors. That written, I don't think I've seen any other 1970's MPC tender shells that share the following characteristics:

Blank number boards (tender end)

Oval on the sides with no markings

No divider or post cast inside the tender shell

Several depressions on the inside of the tender that almost look like a negative of coal chunks. These depressions are underneath the coal pile.

Were there any other MPC shells with any of those characteristics?

I have several of the shells that were offered to Lionel service stations with Pennsylvania, Lionel Lines, and New York Central lettering, and none of them have any of the above. I would have to get out my service station material to be certain, I think they are from 1971.

quote:

This is one of three interesting MPC replacement tender shells from the period.

What are the other two?

Here is what I have found in my papers so far:

in February 1971, Lenny Dean sent out a parts survey to see whether people would order enough parts to make running them feasible. Included were:

773-117 "Penna." tender body with a list price of $3.00

2671W-5 N.Y.C. tender body with a list price of $3.00

note that the part numbers are reversed. I also wonder whether the date is correct, because:

In a document dated June 1970 Lionel announced that the following tender shells were available:

773-117 tender body (NYC) @$3.00

2671W-5 tender body (Penna.) @ $3.00

I haven't found any paper mentioning the 2671W-5 style tender bodies labeled "Lionel Lines".
I remember purchasing several from Nassau Hobb. I think it was after they had moved from Church St to Merrick Rd. I do not remember the year, or when Nassau Hobby moved.

I had assumed that these announcements referred to the shells I got from Nassau Hobby, with the web and post cast inside, but perhaps the documents refer to the close spaced tender pictured above. If so, does that mean that there are also early MPC Pennsylvania shells with the same mold characteristics?

Where were the MPC shells with the web and post, decorated for NYC, Pennsylvania, and Lionel Lines made?

I'm looking at my 1972 8206 4-6-4 tender shell and it does not have the side number board, the rear light portholes are filled and the numberbox in the rear is 2671W-6

So maybe Lionel was using up already cast postwar shells from the 1964-66 773 locomotive for the closely spaced NEW YORK CENTRAL lettering. Also the color of the plastic on that version is a gray/black, not a true black color. By 1972 the square cut out in the coal bulkhead for the whistle sound has been filled in by MPC. Does the above picture have the hole open (postwar production) or filled (MPC production)?

 The later New York Central, Pennsylvania, and Lionel Lines (totally different larger font) were replacement shells from around 1977-78 if I remember correctly.

My tender shell with the close spaced lettering has a square opening in the back wall of the coal bin. The tender looks black to me. (funny in some light the tender looks black, as in the first photo, and in some light it does look grey, as in the bottom photo) Here are photos comparing the close spaced lettering tender with a MPC wide spaced lettering tender

Top picture - no comment necessary

Middle picture - top tender with the plain insides is the shell with close spaced lettering

Note the web and two posts that are cast on the inside of the bottom tender.

Bottom picture - tender on the right is the shell with close spaced lettering. Note the opening in the back wall of the coal bunker, and the blank number board.
The shell on the left does not have the opening, the number board is marked "2671W-6"

The 1972 catalog 8206 picture shows the closely spaced lettering. So the closely spaced lettered shell is using up already cast late postwar shells for replacements and used the early MPC 8041 lettering stamp. By the time the 8206 was released the tender mold had been modified.

quote:

So maybe Lionel was using up already cast postwar shells from the 1964-66 773 locomotive for the closely spaced NEW YORK CENTRAL lettering. Also the color of the plastic on that version is a gray/black, not a true black color. By 1972 the square cut out in the coal bulkhead for the whistle sound has been filled in by MPC. Does the above picture have the hole open (postwar production) or filled (MPC production)?

 The later New York Central, Pennsylvania, and Lionel Lines (totally different larger font) were replacement shells from around 1977-78 if I remember correctly.

I am a little confused. Which shell has the gray/black color?

I would have guessed earlier than 1977-78 on those replacement shells.

Does anybody need a photo of the Lionel Lines shell?

Was it used on any modern era product?

quote:

The 1972 catalog 8206 picture shows the closely spaced lettering

I looked up the 1972 catalog. The lettering on the 8206 picture on page doesn't seem to match my tender shell. In the catalog, the word "new" starts below the water tank area, with the "W" appearing right around where the shell curves upward for the coal bunker area. On the shell pictured above, the word "new" starts below that curved area.

And here is a picture of the 8206 from the 1973 catalog, the tender has wide spaced lettering.

Here's the 1965 version which I've had since 1965

Not that I've found. The tooling was modified for the 8206's electronic whistle in 1972.

 You've hit the nail on the head... the Pennsylvania and the Lionel Lines.

TRW

My service bulletins are buried at the moment, but I think you've got it right. I thought the Lionel Lines shells were listed in that second bunch, but perhaps not. I'll have to do some digging.

I've never seen a Pennsylvania tender shell that would match the characteristics of the New York Central with the compressed lettering. What makes the NYC interesting is that weird, not-quite-true-black, UNPAINTED body. The Pennsy and Lionel Lines are clearly painted.

As for where they were made, good question. I thought I had a pretty good idea of what-was-made-and-where, but I was able to spend some time last summer with one of the few guys involved with both Hillside and Mt. Clemens in the early years. While his memory wasn't the best on specific items (he was 97 when I spoke with him!), he did explain that there was a LOT of back-and-forth going on, with Hillside being the final assembly/shipping point for more items than I had thought.

I do know that the 8206 (which was the first MPC item to use the 2671/773 tender) came out of Hillside. And given that Lenny Dean was based there in those years, my guess is that those shells came out of Hillside. Having said all that, I may have an internal memo around here that contradicts the above. Again, I need to do some digging.

TRW

Chuck,

Yup, it's possible that the closely-spaced NYC tender shells utilized left-over postwar blank shells, and that they were simply stamped with the 8041's NYC lettering by MPC.

Unfortunately, my shells are also buried, but I'll be able to dig them out in a few weeks. Like Charlie's photos below, I'm almost positive the shell shown in my first photo above has closed rear portholes.

Do you have any paperwork that documents the 1977-78 date for the NYC (regular lettering), Pennsy and Lionel Lines shells? That sounds a bit late to me, because Lenny greatly curtailed his "parts surveys" following Hillside's closure at the end of the 1974. I can understand the regular NYC's being available in those years (77-78) as they were used for the 8206 and the 8600, but it would be nice to nail the dates down for the PRR and LL.

TRW

The 8206's tender shown in the 1972 catalog appears to be decaled -- hard to believe because they must have had some NYC hot-stamped tenders around somewhere!

TRW

Todd, no I can't confirm with certainty the 77-78 date, but I remember they were shipped in plastic bags, but I would guess the date is pretty close. 

I think Chuck was referring to the not-really-true-black color of the compressed-lettered NYC's. I think the biggest difference can be attributed to the unpainted body.

Here's a photo of the Lionel Lines. MPC really shunned "Lionel Lines", Circle-L's and the like in the 1970's, so the stamping used on this shell remains unique and was not used anywhere in regular production.

TRW

Robert,

Thanks for providing a photo of the mid-1960's 773W tender.

Can you tell if it's painted black or molded in color? Also, are the "portholes" on the rear of the tender body open or closed?

Thanks!

TRW

Interesting. Let me see what I can locate when I do a paperwork dive in a few weeks. My other comment is that whenever I've run into these replacement shells at a service station or old dealer, I've rarely found a Pennsy shell without a Lionel Lines being close by (and vice-versa).

TRW

Maybe you guys can help with a set of questions that I've always had, along with a few that have popped-up as the result of our discussion above.

1) Are the tender shells for the 1964-66 773 and 1964-66 736 painted black or molded in color? Also, do these shells have open or closed portholes on the back?

2) How does the New York Central heat stamping on the 1960's 773 tender compare with the stamping used on the tenders for the 8206 and/or with the 8600? Are there any differences between the 8206 and 8600 tender shells?

3) How does the Pennsylvania heat stamping on the 1960's 736 tender compare with the stamping used on the MPC replacement shell and/or with tender used for the 8304? (This last one is lettered in gold, but I'm more curious how the actual hot stamping compares).

Thanks!

TRW

Another reason I'm thinking '77 on the Lionel Lines tender shell is, Isn't the lettering size and font (or typeface) the same as the shell for the C&O 8603 4-6-4. Does someone have a C&O tender that can post a picture? (Todd?).

 I had a 736W tender and a 773W tender in easy reach.

It appears to me that the Postwar 736W tender was painted, heat stamped, and has closed port holes on the back. It also has the blank oval on the side.

Same goes for the Postwar 773 New York Central tender.

I was able to lay my hands on an MPC New York Central (wide lettering) tender shell and a Lionel lines tender shell (My Pennsylvania must be buried). These are the shells with the webbing and posts inside.

IMHO they are both painted. I compared the New York Central shell to an original Postwar one. I did not see any difference in the shape or spacing of the lettering. However, it is not clear to me that the MPC shells are heat stamped. If they were, the setting had to have been as light as possible. The lettering does not appear to be pressed into the shell at all. Rather it appears to sit on the surface like silk screening.

(Admittedly, I have trouble telling sometimes)

By the way, I believe that all three shells with the webbing and the posts were made available at the same time. (NYC, Pennsylvania, and Lionel Lines)

PaperTRW - sorry, I didn't see your question until just now - painted tender - portholes filled.

Chuck,

The lettering on the Lionel Lines tender is definitely a different font than the 8603 C&O. The LL's lettering is similar to the postwar original, only bigger and thicker.

The C&O uses the prototypical font that C&O used.

TRW

Charlie,

Thanks for checking some of the details. It sounds like tenders used for the 8206 and 8603 used the same hot stamp as the 773W.

I happened to have one of the Lionel Lines shells handy. (Like many of them that I've found over the years, the internal webbing/walls have been carved-out to fit an air-whistle chassis.) It was definitely heat stamped. One side was fairly obvious, and the other didn't show many clues other than a slight gloss to the lettering. I'll have a chance to dig-out my box of those shells soon, and will verify that the NYC's, LL's and PRR's are all heat-stamped and painted.

Your last point about the NYC, LL and PRR being available together makes sense. I should have included the NYC (widely-spaced) shell when mentioning that I usually have found it along with the PRR and LL together.

TRW

Thanks for checking, Robert!

So it looks like painted shells are definitely the norm for the time period, which definitely makes the tightly-spaced NYC tender a bit of an anomaly with its unpainted body.

Just for kicks, I looked through the tender section of the Greenberg Guide to Selected Variations (Volume 7). And interestingly enough, there is a listing for a 736W Pennsylvania tender with an unpainted black body.

Has anyone ever seen one? And if so, I wonder if it matches the unusual black sheen of the tightly-spaced NYC? If it really does exist, it could be the mate to the NYC as listed in the February 1971 service bulletin that Charlie mentioned in one of his earlier posts.

More mysteries...

TRW

quote:

I happened to have one of the Lionel Lines shells handy. (Like many of them that I've found over the years, the internal webbing/walls have been carved-out to fit an air-whistle chassis.) It was definitely heat stamped. One side was fairly obvious, and the other didn't show many clues other than a slight gloss to the lettering. I'll have a chance to dig-out my box of those shells soon, and will verify that the NYC's, LL's and PRR's are all heat-stamped and painted.

For the longest time those three shells just didn't show up for sale very often. But in the past few years, I've seen quite a few available, unused with the webbing and posts intact. I think they are coming out of the woodwork as parts hoards are being liquidated. I have several of each.