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Watched a really long tank car train go by led by a UP and two BNSFs and a lonely loud, slightly smoking UP pusher bringing up the rear.  I know the engineer controls the rear engine from the cab.  How does s/he know the pusher is really shoving and not slacking?  Pusher amperage readout, wheel RPMs or ? so right amount of push/retarding is applied, especially around curves and hills.  What about excessive pusher wheel slippage and other things not evident unless someone was riding the pusher? 

 

When engineer begins brake handling, does pusher begin pushing/exhausting air from its end to speed up brake release/application?

 

This is just for a general "generic" train, knowing there are probably a lot of "it depends" involved.

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Originally Posted by rrman:

Watched a really long tank car train go by led by a UP and two BNSFs and a lonely loud, slightly smoking UP pusher bringing up the rear.  I know the engineer controls the rear engine from the cab.  How does s/he know the pusher is really shoving and not slacking?

 

Because he/she can see what the rear DPU is doing by watching it on the computer screen in the laed unit.

  Pusher amperage readout, wheel RPMs or ? so right amount of push/retarding is applied, especially around curves and hills.  What about excessive pusher wheel slippage and other things not evident unless someone was riding the pusher? 

 

When engineer begins brake handling, does pusher begin pushing/exhausting air from its end to speed up brake release/application?

 

This is just for a general "generic" train, knowing there are probably a lot of "it depends" involved.

 

Because he/she can see what the rear DPU is doing by watching it on the computer screen in the lead unit.

 

HW  can you give us a little more, watching what?,  gauges?  Wheel slip, amp meter   I suppose if radio communications is lost the engine drops  it's  load?  Do these rear pushers  engines get skidded the odd time when the train  brakes are used?  Can you reset a ground relay from the lead engine?

Originally Posted by Gregg:

Because he/she can see what the rear DPU is doing by watching it on the computer screen in the lead unit.

 

HW  can you give us a little more, watching what?,

 

No, the actual computer screen right in front of the lead unit's Engineer.

 

  gauges?  Wheel slip, amp meter   I suppose if radio communications is lost the engine drops  it's  load?

 

No, the rear DPU will stay in its "last state" for some 30 minutes, or until it senses a brake pipe reduction, then it drops its load.

 

  Do these rear pushers  engines get skidded the odd time when the train  brakes are used?

 

No, they do not "get skidded", whatever THAT means. The rear DPUs are totally controlled by the lead unit's Engineer.

 

 

  Can you reset a ground relay from the lead engine?

 

No.

 

No, they do not "get skidded", whatever THAT means. The rear DPUs are totally controlled by the lead unit's Engineer.

 

I was curious whether the  pusher engine's brakes were set up  the same as a ordinary box car.  Or can you bail off the independent.   Any way Thank you for the additional info.

 

 

GTG    got to go

Last edited by Gregg

Slightly different situation but perhaps a similar question.  The CSX Old Main is pusher territory from Brunswick, MD eastbound to Parr's Ridge in Mt. Airy, mostly for coal drags. The pushers cut off on the fly just past the ridge crest.  Are the pushers DPU's going up the grade or independently controlled by the pusher crew?  And how is the "on the fly" cutoff accomplished between the lead units and the pushers?

 

Thanks.

 

Poppyl

Originally Posted by poppyl:

Slightly different situation but perhaps a similar question.  The CSX Old Main is pusher territory from Brunswick, MD eastbound to Parr's Ridge in Mt. Airy, mostly for coal drags. The pushers cut off on the fly just past the ridge crest.  Are the pushers DPU's going up the grade or independently controlled by the pusher crew?  And how is the "on the fly" cutoff accomplished between the lead units and the pushers?

 

Thanks.

 

Poppyl


They're not DPU's, they have their own crew.

The DP or DPU (depending on which RR calls it what) can be mirrored to the lead unit, or the engineer can put the fence up and run it independently. Its a locomotive(s) back there, and runs as a locomotive, no braking as a box car. When mirrored, it does exactly what the lead unit does. When run independently from the screen on the lead unit, it does whatever the engineer tells it to do.
Originally Posted by Gregg:

  I would still  still like to know what happens if communications are lost, I can't believe the engine would carry on with the last instruction for any length of time.... 

As I stated above, the DP/DPU stays in what ever state it was previously in when a communication fault/failure occurs. The reason for that is, take foe example heavy mountain grades with lots of curves; you sure wouldn't want the rear DPU to drop its load, for just a 1 or 2 minute comm failure!  Thus, the rear DP/DPU will continue to do what ever it was doing, UNLESS the brake pipe pressure drops, i.e. air brake application, then it drops to idle.

Originally Posted by Wyhog:
Originally Posted by Gregg:

I would still  still like to know what happens if communications are lost, I can't believe the engine would carry on with the last instruction for any length of time.

I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that the DP's will continue the last command if radio communication is lost.

 

From rule 105.8.2 of the BNSF Air Brake & Train Handling book of rules.

(Emphasis is mine)...

If a radio communication has been interrupted, each remote consist will do the following:
1.Continue to operate on the last throttle and air brake command received via the radio.
2.If no changes in the actual brake pipe pressure are detected at the remote:
a.Continue to act on last command received for no longer than 90 minutes.
b. If radio communication has not been re-established, at the end of 90-minute override, remote will drop throttle (or dynamic brake) to idle at a rate of 3 seconds per throttle position, and automatic brake valve will cut out.

As HW said, you sure as heck don't want those pushers to drop to idle when you are  climbing a long hill and they lose radio contact. The train at best would stall and most likely would be in several pieces.

Even the old 1970s era Locotrol had an OverRide button that did basically the same thing (but for only 30 minutes as I recall). We engineers were ALWAYS pushing that OverRide button just in case the radio comm was temporarily lost. The current era DPs just automatically do what we always did anyway.

 

Further BNSF rule...

If a remote unit senses a brake application or release via the brake pipe without receiving a radio command to reduce brake pipe pressure or to release the brakes, the unit will:
Try to check with the lead unit via radio.
1.If no response is received, the remote unit will:
a. Step the throttle or dynamic brake to IDLE at 3 seconds per step.
b. Cut out the brake valve on the remote.
c. Limit to an ISOLATE mode.
Note: The engineer uses the brake pipe as a backup communication tool, as described in steps 1 and 2 above, to eliminate tractive effort or dynamic braking.

 

More BNSF rule..

 

During a communications interruption between the lead and remote(s), keep the train moving, if possible, to a location where communications might improve.
While using a remote DP/IDP unit at the rear of the train without a two-way ETD, a communication interruption that exceeds 5 minutes should be considered an en route failure of an ETD.

That last sentence means reduce max speed to 30 mph.

 

 

Ok thanks for the replies...  It seems you can find them in the middle of the train as well on non mountain territory  , You and HW work with these unit? Next thing coming  a  satellite will be telling you when to throttle back or isolate a unit.

Originally Posted by Gregg:

Next thing coming  a  satellite will be telling you when to throttle back or isolate a unit.

We already have that.....it's called PTC  It doesn't tell us to isolate a unit but they already do that any way based on horse power restrictions and fuel conservations rules.

PTC calculates estimates of how long before you need to be at a certain speed or come to a stop. It's starts a timer, counting down, for you to react to its estimates, and if you DON'T react, either by setting some air, notching back, or increasing the dynos, it will stop the train for you. PTC controls how you run the train now....when it works!

Originally Posted by rrman:
Originally Posted by rrman:

 

When engineer begins brake handling, does pusher begin pumping/exhausting air from its end to speed up brake release/application?

 

 

Have not read a reply to this part of my question yet.

In DP/DPU operation,,,,YES.  For regular "maned helpers", NO the brake valve on the maned helper MUST be cut-out.

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