Question about PRR's Broadway Limited

@GameBreaker64 posted:

Would someone be able to list the primary steam and diesel locomotive classes that pulled the BL over the course of its life?

My first suggestion would be to visit the Pennsylvania RR Technical & Historical Society website.

Probably just about any of the Passenger locos the RR owned starting whenever the train started which I think was before 1910.     So conceivably you could have a D16 or other 4-4-0 in the early years.     K4s predominated.   The 2 K5s probably made an appearance.     I don't know about the dual service M1/M1a.    they seemed to stay mostly on fast freight.     the T1 duplexes for sure, and probably some of the other duplexes, and possibly a few times the Turbine.   

As for diesels, you the Alco PAs, the Baldwin Passenger Sharks (not freight version), The FM Erie-builts, and the EMD E7s and E8s which probably got it the most.      Another thought there were various diesels around the system that were bought with steam generators to "protect" passenger power schedules.     For example, 2 Baldwin AS616s were delivered with Steam generators as passenger protect power.    They were delivered to Mingo Jct, Ohio for primary freight work, but were supposed to be able to pinch-hit for passenger power on the Pan-Handle Division passenger trains.    I don't know whether they ever did, however.

So you would probably be pretty accurate with any passenger power, and might find a photo somewhere of some odd assignment.

Also in addition betwee NYC and Harrisburg, they probably used GG1s and other electrics once the electrification was in.

After about 1935, GG1 engines pulled the train between New York City and Paoli, PA.  West of Paoli steam pulled the train until about 1947 when diesels started taken over.

Pictures of the BL show mostly K4 steamers pulling the train, with the K4 Torpedo being the preferred engine from about 1936 until WWII.  Some of the four streamlined K4 engines also pulled the train.

Other steam engines, such as the S1 and T1, also pulled the BL after WWII.  Probably the legs closer to Chicago where the track was straighter.

The E7, then the E8, were the primary diesel engines after about 1947 until the 60s.  The passenger sharks probably pulled the BL, but their poor reliability forced them to secondary trains fairly quickly.  Same for the Centipedes.  The Pennsy only had five PA ABA sets and I think they were mostly used on other trains; I have not seen anything on a PA pulling the BL.  Doesn't mean it never happened, just have not seen anything.

The Erie Builts were originally dual service but re geared to passenger only in 1949 and also pulled the BL until 1951, when they were re geared for freight.

Lots of choices.

@CAPPilot posted:

After about 1935, GG1 engines pulled the train between New York City and Paoli, PA.  West of Paoli steam pulled the train until about 1947 when diesels started taken over.

Pictures of the BL show mostly K4 steamers pulling the train, with the K4 Torpedo being the preferred engine from about 1936 until WWII.  Some of the four streamlined K4 engines also pulled the train.

Other steam engines, such as the S1 and T1, also pulled the BL after WWII.  Probably the legs closer to Chicago where the track was straighter.

The E7, then the E8, were the primary diesel engines after about 1947 until the 60s.  The passenger sharks probably pulled the BL, but their poor reliability forced them to secondary trains fairly quickly.  Same for the Centipedes.  The Pennsy only had five PA ABA sets and I think they were mostly used on other trains; I have not seen anything on a PA pulling the BL.  Doesn't mean it never happened, just have not seen anything.

The Erie Builts were originally dual service but re geared to passenger only in 1949 and also pulled the BL until 1951, when they were re geared for freight.

Lots of choices.

Only one addition, starting in 1938 the GG1s would continue past Paoli to Harrisburg where the non-electrics you mentioned would take over.

Did not the R1 electric also powered the BL?

Would the change to non electric locomotives happened in the Harrisburg station or across the river at Enola?

Thank you all for the info! I'm looking to make a short video montage of every locomotive class that pulled the BL. Does anyone know of any video that specifically feature the locos on the BL trip? Seems like footage of that is kind of rare.

Engine changes for east bound as well as west bound PRR passenger trains was done at the Harrisburg station, which was also a division point where train crews changed as well.  Efficiently and quickly done while at the stop. 

Unmentioned are earlier times at Philadelphia, when the BL and other west bound trains from NY City were hauled in reverse observation car first, out of Penn Station, then backed into the old Broad Street terminal.  Engine change was done by cutting off the one from NY City and putting another on the front end for the run west. The trip to NYC was done that way as well, with east bound trains heading in at Philly.  Another loco was put on the tail end to haul the train backward to NY.  S.Islander

@David Johnston posted:

Would the change to non electric locomotives happened in the Harrisburg station or across the river at Enola?

Passenger trains would switch between non-electrics and electric engines at Harrisburg Station.

I'm not entirely sure about freight. I believe if the freight was coming-up/ going-down the low-grade line from Parkensburg or from Perrysville Md, the change would most likely happen at Enola while others would exchange at a yard just north of Harrisburg station. This is just a deduction based on the orientation of the electric lines approaching the Harrisburg area, someone else may be able to give a better picture about where freight changed over between electrics and non-electrics 

@GameBreaker64 posted:

Thank you all for the info! I'm looking to make a short video montage of every locomotive class that pulled the BL. Does anyone know of any video that specifically feature the locos on the BL trip? Seems like footage of that is kind of rare.

https://youtu.be/dViL4fP8idg?t=1394 

Here's a GG1 on the westbound trip somewhere around Merion Station, (I think the link should take you to the right time in the video, if not start at 23:14). What's particularly exciting is that you can see the lit drumhead on the end of the train. I really like this video because it shows the Phila. - Paoli part of the mainline before steam was phased out and the GG1s still had pinstripes instead of the widestripe scheme of the late 50s. 

Also the film Broadway Limited (1941) does a historically accurate job of portraying a K4 and GG1 pulling the train. The only 'inaccuracy' is when they have 1223 (a 4-4-0 D16sb) step in to pull the train, but this is only a stunt to add to the plot of the movie. As mentioned above, the days of 4-4-0s pulling the Broadway ended in the first decade of the 1900s.

Here is a compilation of just the train related scenes in the movie: https://youtu.be/6SwBlDsb7-w?t=71 

The BL started in 1912 when the predominant power for PRR passenger trains were E2 and E3 Atlantics.  It is doubtful a D16sb would have been able to pull the heavyweight Pullman cars.  With the K4 not arriving until 1914, it is likely that K2s and and K3s may have seen some service in those early years also.

As for the later history of the BL post PRR, E8s continued to be the predominant power for PC with an occasionally E7.  Under Amtrak E8s pulled it briefly until SDP40Fs got the assignment.  Conrail banned the SDP40F which brought back the E8s until F40PHs took the train over and it was converted to full HEP.  In it's final years the train would see an occasional GE B32.  Upon retirement of the GG1 in1981, the power change happened at 30th St. Station with an E60 taking over for the final leg to NY.  It was finally discontinued in 1995.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The BL started in 1912 when the predominant power for PRR passenger trains were E2 and E3 Atlantics.  It is doubtful a D16sb would have been able to pull the heavyweight Pullman cars.  With the K4 not arriving until 1914, it is likely that K2s and and K3s may have seen some service in those early years also.

I agree with you about D16's not being able to pull heavyweight Pullman cars. I do have a bit to add about the start date of the Broadway. The service was started in 1902 as the Pennsylvania Special, the name was changed to the Broadway Limited in 1912 as the original name was often confused with the Pennsylvania Limited (a completely different train). I do believe that pre-1912, the train would have been pulled by D-class locomotives. There's a book about the Rockville Bridge that shows a picture of the Pennsylvania Special with wood cars and a D-class locomotive. I don't want to risk copyright issues by posting the specific picture, heres a link to the book:  https://www.amazon.com/Rockvil...ehanna/dp/B003VZZKC4 (It is an awesome read and has a lot of cool pictures from the construction and early history of the bridge!) 

The introduction of metal cars on the PRR started in 1906 as preparation for the opening of the Hudson River tunnels, they didn't want wood coaches in the tunnels as they would be a fire hazard: https://rrmuseumpa.org/wp-cont...uploads/PRR-1651.jpg This said, the Broadway/Pennsylvania Special service would have operated with wooden cars until the opening of the tunnels. 

On a side note, the DD1s are another locomotive that would have 'technically' pulled the train until the NEC was fully electrified, although only for a few miles (Manhattan Transfer to Penn Station NYC). 

Good call on the electrics that were used in the tubes prior to completion of electrification on the NY-DC main.  The L5 also had a brief role there.  About as brief as it's service on the PRR in general.

I was on the BL in May of 1977, EB.  Train was powered with 3 Amtrak E units.  But in front of those was an ex CR in PC black to provide cab signals.