Railroad Pocket Watches

Since the 18 size watches where "no longer approved" after the late 1920s, I think, when I purchased my first "approved" RR pocket watch in 1956 or 57, in order to start railroading, it was a Hamilton 992B. As I added to my small collection over the years, my all time favorite is still my Hamilton 950B.

I use this Waltham Vanguard 23-Jewel watch every day I go to work on the Valley Railroad. Also have an old Hamilton as a collector's item. It needs work, so I don't use it. I've owned the Waltham since I started on the Erie in 1960.

Lee

I carried an Illinois Bunn Special in a gold filled case, for 30 years, and gave it to my oldest son when he married.

I had bought the watch from the railroad time inspector for $42 in 1970. It went with me out the door and over the handrails of ATSF 2394 during a sideswipe in the yard in 1974. It rode up on a flatcar with me when an opposing UPRR train ran the slack in and jacknifed right in front of my light helper engine. It was used to check a mile at 90 MPH through Hodge while I was running number 17, six rednose EMD's and 15 stainless steel cars, glowing in a desert sunrise. It told me that "Big Andy" Anderson was going 105 MPH through Bryman. It was in my pocket when I almost rear-ended a UPRR caboose without lights, in a cut on a curve.

Mostly, though, it just told me if I was within the seconds passing stations and meeting points, checked thousands of Chicago Pneumatic and Barco speed recorders, and helped me get to work on time. It never wavered.

Hot Water,

It's hard to argue that the 992B and 950B aren't the most reliable timekeepers ever made among the American railroad watches. Not to mention the fact that they were from the ground up designed with the watchmaker in mind.

Take five 992Bs completely apart, throw them into a pile, and from that pile you can assemble five fully working watches which are equally as good at timekeeping as the five watches you started with. Doing the same with any watch made prior to the 992B, and many made after, would result in five watches that wouldn't run, or at least wouldn't run very well(and keep lousy time). The only part not fully interchangeable is the hairspring, which must be matched to the balance.

Plus, innovations like the friction fit balance staff made repair mindlessly simple. I did one for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and it took me about 30 minutes never having done one before. Replacing a normal riveted balance staff is about a 2 hour job, and requires truing(making sure the balance is both perfectly round and perfectly flat) and poising(making sure all the weight is distributed equally around the rim). The friction fit allowed you to make the repair without disturbing either of these.

My 992B is from about 1958. It's in a Model 15 stainless steel case with a 151 "Blind Man's" Montgomery dial. I'll have to get a picture of it up here.

Lee,

Waltham of course made fine watches. Your Vanguard incorporates many of the same innovations which made the 992B great, including the friction balance staff(which Waltham used long before Hamilton) and the use of easy-to-replace friction jewels.

I also love the model 1908 plate layout, which Waltham was still using when your watch was made. In my opinion, it's one of the most attractive 16 size watch models.

Tom,

Buying Illinois(in 1928) was the smartest move that Hamilton ever made. There's little question that, during the 1920s, Illinois was on top. The fit and finish on their watches was top notch.

You can see a lot of their technology in the later Hamilton models.

I have a Waltham Railroad watch and like to have it repaired. I have emailed several "watchmakers" on the internet but got no replies. Does anyone know of a good watchmaker that would repail this watch.

Since Marcus Jewelers in Hoboken (where I bought my Waltham in 1960)
went out of the business, I know of no other watchmaker in NJ. But
now that I live in CT, Louie's Watch Repair in Guilford, CT does my work.
He's good. 203-453-6991.

Lee

Like Number 90, I have an Illinois Bunn Special that was made for the I.C. R.R. It has a 60 hr movement and lever set. Was made in 1927, just before Hamilton bought Illinois. Due to its value, I don't carry it often. My other "gem" is an 1885 American Waltham, much larger than the Illinois. My daily watch? A Westclox Pocket Ben from prob sometime in the '50's or'60's. I also have a nice Russian-made with cover and transparent mechanism. As someone said earlier, the quartz mechanism is very precise, but it has no soul. In "the day," Hamilton's slogan was "The Watch of Railroad Accuracy."

The only railroad-approved watch I own is a Hamilton 940 from 1910, a gift from a relative who collected clocks and watches. Even though it was a bit bulky to wear with a suit, it was my regular watch for years.



The fob on the left is a reproduction of an actual fob Hamilton made - the front view of a locomotive, with the smokebox front fashioned as a watch face. "940" is imprinted on the face.

The fob on the watch is one I bought on eBay. Some months after, I learned that the design is a "Gibson Girl" drawing of Evelyn Nesbit: http://community.livejournal.c...nefashion/61821.html

For the last 10 years or so, my timepiece has been my cell phone - never need to set it or worry about time zones, and it's one less thing to fiddle with at airport security.

Maybe this is as good as place as any to ask this but how do you carry a pocket watch properly and how does the fob come into play?

A fob is convenient if you're keeping it in the watch pocket of jeans, where it's unlikely to fall out - use it as a handle to pull the watch out. (Over the years my watch chain caught on all manner of obstacles, but a fob can be stuck down in the larger pocket so it's less of a hazard.)

But a watch chain, or a leather lanyard, is more common around the railroad.

I saw an Amtrak conductor on the Pacific Surfliner that had a standard pocketwatch like these but it was in a leather case that clipped to his belt. Any idea where one could buy one of those cases? He just lifted it up to check the time as I think it hung upside down.

I carry a pocket watch every day, and have several that I keep on a rotation(the one pictured in the initial post is one of them).

Most days, I wear blue jeans. Most even today have a watch pocket, which is the small pocket on the right side above the main pocket. Unfortunately, though, many have a tiny and mostly useless watch pocket that won't hold anything larger than an American 12-size.

Some, though, do still retain a full sized pocket that can comfortably hold an 18 size watch.

I normally place the watch in the pocket, and tether it to my belt loop using a short(6-8") chain that has a large spring ring on the other end. I never much liked using a fob, as it feels too insecure to me.

Here's another favorite, a 16s Illinois A. Lincoln from about 1917 with a Montgomery dial. This was a step below the Bunn Special in quality. Unfortunately, this one isn't mine, but rather one I worked on. It's a beautiful watch, though.

quote:

Originally posted by bazonkers:
I saw an Amtrak conductor on the Pacific Surfliner that had a standard pocketwatch like these but it was in a leather case that clipped to his belt. Any idea where one could buy one of those cases? He just lifted it up to check the time as I think it hung upside down.

Just Google 'pocket watch belt holster' and you'll find lots of them.

I did search google but all the ones I found looked more like a case. This was something that surrounded the watch and let it hang down but the face was always visible. All he had to do was lift it up. It was like this but fit a standard sized RR pocketwatch:

Hey Ben i'm not shure if this is a rail road watch,the watch is E Howard Watch co. from boston. i found the watch about 20 years ago, it has a W on the back inside on back it has ATW ABW 12-25-25 i felt bad not having anyway to return this watch to it's owner. also on the other side was keystone extra then #1521130 any info would be great, thanks shadowman

Ben #1335840 not realy sure how to post pic thank you for info, it's cool finding out about the watch all these year's i found it by iron foundry in detroit mich thank's again. shadowman

Definitely a Keystone Howard, and from somewhere in the neighborhood of 1917.

The next best thing to a picture would be all of the markings on the movement itself. If you could list all of those, I could offer some additional information.

Thanks,
Ben

Ok here we go Howard.co 1335640 boston usa pat D12 17 jewels temperature 3pos. and on outer edge#1130 that's all i see. it is missing the glass and i doen"t think it work's can it be repaired, looks good inside. thanks again shadowman ps number90, Tom gave me a great idea, my son he 6 years old so i think it would cool to get it fix and hand it down to him later. thanks.

Well...I don't have a "railroad" pocket watch, but I do have a Waltham that was my great grandfather's. It was given to him upon his retirement as a printer.
On the back it is engraved with the following:
"Presented to James J. Kenny, by San Francisco Stereotypers and Electrotypers Union No. 29, I.S. and E.U., July 20, 1907." I took it to a watchmaker and had it repaired. I still use it when I wear my 3-piece suit.
Matt

Photos of my Howard and American Waltham watches

17 jewels and adjusted to 3 positions would make it in the mid-grade category. Still a very nice watch, although it would not have been railroad grade at the time it was made(5 positions were required by then).

It may very well be in a solid gold case, also-that's probably something worth checking out.

It can definitely be repaired, although Howard parts are a bit difficult to find. Fortunately, Keystone Howard parts are easier to find than Boston Howard parts. Boston Howard parts are nigh on impossible(ask me how I know).

If you found it on the ground, it probably fell out of someone's pocket. Most likely, the balance staff is broken-something which is a fairly routine fix, although somewhat complicated. A good watchmaker should be able to make it right.

Since we're talking Howards, here's a photo of my Series IV keywound Boston Howard from 1873. It's in a Dueber 4 oz. coin silver hunting case, which is unfortunately not original to the movement. This is an "N" size watch, which is just slightly larger than 18 size

Ben brings up an important point here, about the movement and case not being original to each other. Getting involved with these watches is akin to fooling with toy trains or old cars: sometimes items are not original or quite what they seem to be. Even in "the day," there was a lot of altering going on, with cases and movements being switched around. Sorta like what the I.C. did at Paducah with its steam re-building program. Go to a flea mkt and talk to a serious watch person for a real education. There is even a sub-cult that collects the "dollar watches", like my Pocket Ben. Look for some of the Ingraham dollar jobs, many of which are quite handsome and look like they would have cost more. Maybe you can even find a Hamilton 992-B for less than a fortune................

What Jim says is true-there's a whole lot of switching that goes on these days with watches. Movements and cases are especially common, since watches were, by and large, made in standard sizes and, until the 1920s, movements weren't cased at the factory.

It's surprisingly common to find old Howards in non-original cases. Most of them were originally in 18K gold cases, many of which have made it to the scrappers over the years. Since an N size Howard is both larger and thinner than an 18 size watch, a standard 18 size case has to be modified to accept one(and it still doesn't look right). If you look at mine above, you'll see that there's a noticeable gap between the watch and the rear rim of the case(as well as the fact that the dust cover doesn't have the winding hole in the correct location).

Fortunately, many switches are easy to spot since the movement screws leave a scar on the case rim. Of course, if the switch is between two different movements that have the same screw location, the switch isn't so obvious.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that 992Bs have been switched like crazy, and if you're considering buying one, it's worth taking the time to do some research. 992Bs were made from 1940-1969. All were cased at the factory, in one of several different factory cases. The cases came and went over the years, and there were also variations both in the style and construction of the dial, and in the hands. Other design features, like the gold center wheel, disappeared as production went on. Thus, you really shouldn't spend a lot of money on one until you take the time to ascertain whether the dial, case, and hands are correct for when the watch was made(which can be determined from the serial number).

The Complete Price Guide to Watches is a decent(and readily available) reference on this, as it shows most of the dial and case styles for the 992Bs, and the years they were in production. The Complete Guide is also full of errors, though, so don't use it as an absolute, infallible source.

Considering the popularity of 992Bs in general, and specifically in this thread, I'm surprised that a photo of one hasn't been posted.

For your enjoyment, here's my c.1958 992B, in a model 15 stainless steel case, and a glossy melamine 151 Montgomery "Blind Man's" dial





The only unfortunate thing about the 992B is that the decoration wasn't quite up to the same standard as the earlier 992 movements(and most other older American movements). What it lacked in "prettiness", though, it more than made up for in functionality.

One watch dealer I met had two 992-B's with cases that had clear backs on them, so that the movement was visible. He said that these were salemens' samples designed to showcase the movement. If the jeweler bought the movement, it would then be installed in a case which the salesman would supply. The salesman would try, of course, to sell the most expensive case he could.

quote:

Originally posted by revolgnad:
Photos of my Howard and American Waltham watches

You probably know this, but for those that don't, this one wouldn't have been approved for railroad use. The stem on a railroad timepiece had to be at the 12 o'clock position.

Hunting cases (with the pop-open cover) were also not welcome on the railroad.

To follow-up on John's comments above, Maybe Ben10Ben can give us the exact dates the 18s size watches where no longer approved, as well as the minimum requirement of 21 jewels effective date. I thought it was in the 1920s.

quote:

You probably know this, but for those that don't, this one wouldn't have been approved for railroad use. The stem on a railroad timepiece had to be at the 12 o'clock position.

Hunting cases (with the pop-open cover) were also not welcome on the railroad.

Actually, that's not totally correct.

The requirement for open face, lever setting watches with arabic dials that wind at 12:00 was not firmly established until somewhere in the 1906-1908 time frame. Before that, they were pretty much universally accepted.

Even after the requirements were changed to prohibit hunting cases, roman dials, and pendant setting, watches in use were grandfathered in and some were still in use as late as 1940.

In any case, hunting case movements, which, by definition, wind at 3:00, were not expressly prohibited after 1908. It was a simple matter to take just such a movement, fit it with a so-called conversion dial to relocate the winding to 12:00 and the second hand to 3:00, and then case it up in an open face case. Provided that it met all the mechanical requirements, and was lever set, it would be permitted to be used.

So if I was interested in getting a RR watch, what's a good place to get one from? I'm not looking to spend a fortune, but would like one that the RRs actually used and is in working order.

The only pocket watch I have is one of those "RR" watches that has a battery in it, given to me by my kids for Father's Day

I haven't worn a watch since I retired 3 years ago, but if I could get a good RR pocket watch I may start wearing one

yeah, i'd be interested, too.

As a side note:

The Ball Watch Company ran a small ad every month in the Locomotive Engineers' Journal until the BofLE stopped publishing the monthly magazine (in 1957, if memory serves me).

Despite the advertising, I do not recall ever seeing a Ball pocket watch registered at any watch register on Santa Fe's Los Angeles Division.

Your watch number was like your military serial number -- burned permanently into your brain.

Flea mkts often have knowledgeable watch collectors present. Also, the web has many sites selling pocket watches. Put something like "R.R. pocket watches" in a search engine. Lots of them show up on e-bay, and the usual cautions about buying anything there apply. Happy hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:

The requirement for open face, lever setting watches with arabic dials that wind at 12:00 was not firmly established until somewhere in the 1906-1908 time frame. Before that, they were pretty much universally accepted.

Even after the requirements were changed to prohibit hunting cases, roman dials, and pendant setting, watches in use were grandfathered in and some were still in use as late as 1940.

Thanks. With all the changes going on around that time (air brakes, boiler inspection laws, unionization conflict, etc.), railroading was definitely going through interesting times.

Just out of curiosity...who served as the "Pocket Watch Police?" Who checked and enforced who had the proper watches that met regulations? The conductor?
Matt

quote:

the web has many sites selling pocket watches

maybe more trustworthy than ebay, but how would one know.

some recommendations would be appreciated.

I've had good luck with this firm:

Old Watch.com

My son found a pocket watch at a garage sale and bought it for me. It is an American Waltham made in 1897. On the back is what appears to be a copper inlay of a 4-4-0 and perhaps a pond. Other markings show a lake to the left of the engine with a sail boat, tracks under the loco and a tree to the right of the engine. Can anyone shed more light on what I have. Oh, by the way, it doesn't work and a local jeweler quote me between $500 and $800 to fix it.






Rear of the watch with copper inlays?

IMG]http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx6/budgerman/1897PocketWatch003.jpg[/IMG]

Couldn't get the second picture to work. I'll try again.





That's better.

Sorry guys.