Railroad Pocket Watches

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:


And I respectfully request that you keep your opinion to yourself without knowing the full details of the transaction.

Sorry Ben, I would agree with Larry especially if I didn't know about watches but liked its look but then find a switeroo had been pulled under the hood and seller would not take back.

Bear in mind that dials have value alone-and in this particular dial regularly sells in the $80-100 range in this condition.

I'm not suggesting that novice buyers buy a watch based only on the dial, however it can be a significant clue to the quality of the watch. My intention in posting this was to point it out to prospective purchasers that if you see the dial, it's worth a second look. I go to a lot of flea markets and other places, and have been in situations where I've had 50 or 100 watches laid out in front of me. Knowing what to look for on dials can help a person snag bargains and just simplify sorting through a lot of chaff.

This particular dial is expensive enough, hard enough to find, and in demand so much that it's very unlikely it will have been switched onto a low grade watch. It makes no sense to put a $100 dial on a $50 watch, particularly when most people are looking for it to complete their Bunn and Bunn Specials.

I find the "Caveat Emptor" comment insulting when it is implied that I made a foolish move buying this watch(as the above post did). As I said, the poster had no knowledge of the transaction or what I paid.

quote:

I was making the comment based on the fact that you stated you purchased a watch on Ebay without seeing the movement. I can say without equivocation that only a fool purchases something from EBAY without seeing what it is. You were lucky in this transaction. For every "lucky" transaction there are several that are not so lucky.

Once again, I will state that you do not know the details of the transaction and therefore have nothing on which to base an intelligent opinion of the transaction. Therefore, I feel as though your comment is out of place, and furthermore is quite insulting.

This is my final comment on the matter.

And, yes, the Bunn Special is quite happy devoid of sunlight in my pocket!

EDIT(and this really will be all I say):

Just because a person may have the right to voice their opinion does not mean that one always should. Calling a person a fool based on a small part of a story(as has occurred here) does not fall within the realms of common decency as far as I am concerned.

I apologize to Rich for cluttering up this thread.

What a shame! We are trying to discuss Railroad Pocket Watckes, which are between 80 and 100 years old, and used automobiles suddenly enter the conversation. First let me ask, how many of you "used car experts" know ANYTHING about the Illinois Watch Company, Elgin Watch Company, Hamilton Watch Company, etc., etc., etc.?

I'm certainly no Railroad Pocket Watch "expert", but I darned sure know enough that, if I saw the subject watch that Ben first posted about, with that FANTASTIC 18 size Illinois Dial, AND I could purchase it for the RIGHT PRICE,,,,,I wouldn't care if it had ANY MOVEMENT AT ALL!!!!!

I carry some darned fine 16 size RR approved pocket watches, when I'm out on the road, and every day, SOMEONE always asks; "May I look at your watch, please?". I certainly know the value of what I have (especially the uncarried Hamilton 16s 950B in the safety deposit box), and I also appreciate Ben's continued posts on RR Pocket Watches. All you "used car experts", please butt out!

Thanks, Jack, for your comments.

I'm far from an expert, but I've spent a lot of time learning what I know-and I make sure that what I know, I know well.

And, I'm more than happy to take a "calculated risk" every once in a while when I know that the odds are in my favor. For what I paid for this particular lot, I would have come out alright if it had just been a dial with no movement behind it. I'm not fond of wasting what little money I do have to support my "habit", so you can darn well believe that I'm not just going to start throwing money around if I don't have good reason to believe it will pay off.

Plus, for what I ended up paying for the lot, apparently someone else saw something there to run the price up from the $9.99 starting bid.

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:
I'm far from an expert, but I've spent a lot of time learning what I know-and I make sure that what I know, I know well.

You're an expert. Don't be ashamed about that fact.

Thanks to you, this is one of the best threads on the "Real Trains" board! It's a treat every time I check in on a new post.

Perhaps in about 20 years and after a couple of thousand watches, I can call myself an expert . Like I said, I'm just happy to share what I do know.

I'll keep posting photos to this thread and answering questions as long as folks are enjoying them.

To bring this back on topic, here's another fairly recent acquisition. This was an Ebay buy with a broken balance staff. I ended up buying for about $10 less than the melt value of the sterling silver case. Now with it running well, I figure that my total investment is about $135, or about $15 over the silver value. Not too shabby for a good running movement. The Appleton, Tracy & Co grade was roughly mid-range in the 1892 model line-up, but was still adjusted to 5 positions and thus met most turn of the century(and later) railroad requirements.

As I said in a previous post, the only pocket watches I currently have run on batteries. And they are all dead!

If I wanted to buy a good #16 size pocket watch, where should I look and what should I be prepared to spend?

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:
As I said in a previous post, the only pocket watches I currently have run on batteries. And they are all dead!

If I wanted to buy a good #16 size pocket watch, where should I look and what should I be prepared to spend?

Rich,

Ebay is a great source for watches, but you need to be careful. As a general rule, if the seller is a member of NAWCC you can feel confident in your purchase. The sellers feedback is also a good indicator.

If you want a really good 16s, the 21 jewel Bunn Special is a good choice. The Bunn Special is adjusted to Heat, Cold, Isochronism, and 6 positions, the 6th position being bow down. The Ball Standards did not originally have the 6th position for that adjustment, but the Bunn Special was designed for that position anyway.

They really are nice watches. On Ebay, there are plenty to choose from in all states of condition. A good running Bunn Special is a decent case with very little or no brassing will set you back about $300 or less if you catch the right auction.

There are always some fine 19 jewel watches available right now at a descent price. ($150 - $200).

Hope you get a nice "wind up" and kick the "battery" habit.

Larry

Forgot to mention that pawn shops are a descent source for pocket watches, but you need to do your homework before going down that road. If you develop more than a passing interest in RR pocket watches, membership in the NAWCC is a good investment.

So, any idea how to find a reputable pocket watch repair service?[/QUOTE]

Pittsburgh Jewelery and Watch service
4110 Butler Street
Pittsburgh Pa. 15201
412-605-0328
email: services@pjaws.com
John Iarussi Watch expert.

Custom work and repairs.
Tell them Mark "Skip" Harley referred you!
harleyhouse

Rich,

Although the Illinois 21 jewels "Bunn Special" 16s watches are really nice, just remember that the Illinois Watch Company was purchased by the Hamilton Watch Company in about 1928 or 1929 (as best as I can recall reading). Thus, the Hamilton watches became SO MUCH better from the early 1930s thru the late 1950s. It is probably easier to find a VERY NICE Hamilton 992B from the 1940s thru 1950s, with an EXCELLENT dial, and more reasonable prices than the Illinois "Bunn Specials". Plus, it is EXTREMELY rare to find an Illinois watch WITHOUT a cracked dial.

I'm sure Ben can advise you further, maybe off line.

Rich,

A Hamilton 992, 992B, Elgin BW Raymond, Illinois Bunn Special, and Waltham Vanguard can all generally be had in the $200-300 range(or perhaps a little more). You can also save a little bit of money if you want to step down a little bit and get a watch that's not necessarily top of the line, but still a good quality product. The Illinois A. Lincoln, Waltham Crescent St., and Elgin Father Time would all fit into this category. Watches in this category are not generally finished as well as the top grades, but can keep time just as well provided that they've been gone over by a competent watchmaker.

Regarding 5 vs. 6 positions: I personally wouldn't let this be a decision point. A watch that rates well in 5 positions will still rate well in the 6th position. For really high grade watches(higher grade than most RR grades) I actually would take a 5 position watch over a 6 position watch. The reason is that there is a theoretical limit to how well a watch can be adjusted in 6 positions due to the pinning point of the hairspring.

Also bear in mind that a watchmaker can easily destroy the positional rating of the watch in one cleaning or one poorly done staffing job. A well-maintained 3 position watch will keep better time than a 5 or 6 position watch that has been poorly cared for.

My opinion-as someone who has both owned and serviced examples of all of the above watches-is that, of the bunch-the Hamilton 992 and 992B(and other higher grade Hamilton products) consistently have the best fit and finish.

The 992B is at a further advantage because it was designed from the ground up for easy servicing. The friction-fit balance staff makes it possible to replace the balance staff with minimal potential for disruption to the timekeeping. I mentioned above that I also picked up another 992B the other day. This particular one was beat to heck, had a broken balance staff, and was gummed up to the point where it wouldn't have run had the staff been good. It took me 2 hours to replace the balance staff, clean, reassemble, and oil it. I checked it on the timing machine last night, and the variation between the slowest and fasted position is 3 second/day-well under the original factory specs for the watch.

As far as where to buy watches-if you'll e-mail me I'd be happy to provide some contact info for a few folks who would likely have something which would interest you. I hesitate to post any of their contact information here where it's publicly viewable by all, but I'd be happy to provide it privately.

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:
If I wanted to buy a good #16 size pocket watch, where should I look and what should I be prepared to spend?

Following on from the other comments, if you're simply looking for an accurate watch as opposed to a collectible watch, it shouldn't be hard to find a post-1950 992B on eBay for less than $200. Case model 15 is a simple stainless case introduced in 1950, case model 16 is "rolled gold plate" (i.e. not as good as gold-filled) introduced in 1951. Neither is particularly rare or targeted by collectors.

I use the search term "Hamilton Pocket Watch" since some sellers neglect to put the model number in the title.

Ben is correct that the 6th adjustment position is superfluous – Bunn Specials.

The first pocket watch I purchased was over 35 years ago at a TCA meet in Pittsburgh Pa. The watch was not running but I bought it anyway cause the movement “looked pretty”. Truly, I knew absolutely nothing about watches. It was an 18 size Bunn 17 jewel HCI5P lever set. One of my model railroad buddies said the balance staff was broken. I had no idea what he was talking about so to the library… That trip led to corresponding with several people through the U. S. mail (today communication is much faster but more precarious ) and the gathering of books and information over the next couple of years. Finally, I decided to disassemble the Bunn to discover the problem. My wife was upset that I used a bed sheet as an apron. The problem was not a broken balance staff but one of the balance hole jewels was split in two and loose inside the movement. I also noticed that one of the jewels on the pallet fork was loose. The watch was put away in parts.
My pocket watch adventure was over.

Fast-forward a few years. At a jewelry shop, I spotted what appeared to be a pocket watch disassembled on the jewelers’ workbench. The jeweler, an elderly Italian gentlemen, took a kindly interest in my questions. My next trip, I brought the Bunn and Joe let me watch as he fixed the loose pallet fork jewel and the balance staff jewel. He reassembled the watch explaining everything as he did it. I gladly paid him and over the next couple of years, I watched him work on pocket watches asking questions and getting answers from a craftsman. Also, the watches I purchased from him were a big plus. Then one day when I walked into his shop, Joe handed me a package, told me the price and said to have fun with what I’ve learned. Inside that package was a Bunn Special, disassembled, cleaned and ready to assemble. After assembly, I took it to Joe and he checked the timing. That’s why I like Bunn Specials.


Addendum:

Just wanted to add that the more I learn about horology, I realize that I don't know squat!

Larry,

Thanks for your great Bunn story. I can understand why you like them.

I was not totally happy with the first photo of my 18 size 21j I posted, so I retook it.

Ben,

Very nice movement! And the dial is awesome!

Larry

Thanks Larry.

I've been carrying this watch every day since I got it, and it still brings a smile to my face every time I look at it.

I don't know why I'm so attracted to that dial, but it's quickly become one of my favorites.

Here are a couple of movements for which I'm going to be looking for cases.

First an example from one of my favorite grades-the Waltham Crescent St. This is a model 1883 example, similar to one already posted. At the time, the workers were given some freedom in the operation of the damaskeen machines. Later Crescent St. grades were very elaborate-see this poster produced by NAWCC Ch. 149 for some great examples of the best of the best

http://cgi.ebay.com/PHENOMENAL...&hash=item1c15f1ea93

The square pattern on this one is similar to one already posted, but slightly different when compared side-by-side



The next is a 21j Model 1892 gr. 845. This was a grade similar to the 1892 Crescent St., but lacked some of the nicer finishing touches like gold jewel settings

Great antique watch collection

I went to an NAWCC regional meeting today. I didn't buy much(I was mostly trying to sell). I did bring home two RR watches, though.

The first is a fixer-upper project. It needs a balance staff, and I'm going to keep my eyes open for a dial. It should come out nicely, though. This is an Illinois Model 9 A. Lincoln





The second is one I looked at all day, and finally gave in and bought it. It's a 21j Illinois Sangamo Special. This variant is what's known as a true bridge, and also has a diamond endstone on the balance. The condition on this one is superb, with a perfect dial and a movement nearly so.

This is one of the best finished Illinois watches I've seen. Pay careful attention to the edge finish on the plates, as well as the mirror polish on all of the steelwork.

I have 3 Pocket watches a Howard from 1870 and a Waltham from 1905 and a 21 jewel Majestic which I know absolutely nothing about. The Howard and the Waltham have been in the family since new.Grandad use to leave his watch in his pants and grandma would run it thru the ringer I bet it had the glass replaced 20 times

I don't collect watches but I love to take the back off get out my magnifying glass and read the repair dates inside . It's like a history lesson

David

David,

Any chance you have photo or other information on your watches? I can probably tell you something about the Waltham and Howard with the serial number off the movement.

Here is the above pictured A. Lincoln with some work done on the movement. I cleaned it, replaced the mainspring, and re-blacked the movement lettering. It looks and runs great now.

Ben,

I have a pocket watch with no names or marking of any kind that I can fine. It has a porcelene(sp) face and is driven by a tiny, tiny chain wrapped around a drum. Keeps good time. Any idea what vintage or type it might be? Years ago I bought a large, expensive book on pocket watches and still couldn't find anything like it.

Hi Gary,

It sounds like you probably have an English, or possibly Swiss made watch.

The small chain is called a fusee. If you look carefully, you'll see that one end of the chain is attached to a tapered, grooved pully. When fully wound, the chain pulls on the smallest part of this pulley, and when run down it pull on the largest diameter part of the pulley. This serves to equalize the power of the mainspring, which is greatest at full wind and decreases as the spring runs down. The shape of the pulley was actually worked out by Leonardo DiVinci.

The use of a fusee was required to get anywhere close to respectable timekeeping out of the verge escapement, which was widely used from around 1700 to the early 1800s. Its use was continued in English watches with the introduction of the lever escapement, and continued for the most part until the death of the English watchmaking industry(late 1800s).

There are certain clues about the construction which can help at least give a ballpark date. Also, many English made watches were originally in English-made Sterling Silver cases. The hallmarks can give as much of an exact date as one would require.

If you can provide a photo of the movement-both a frontal and side view-and a picture of the inside of the case back, I'd be happy to tell you all I can about it.

Ben,

Thank you. That's a thousand times more information than I've been able to find in the thirty-five years I've owned it. I'll get pictures by mid-week. Thanks again.

Hello All,
I was given a box a mostly railroad items a week ago and these watches were inside. They do not run and I doubt that they are anything special but I thought I would show them to you. Malcolm

They look square to me.

I too love this thread. I started a bit of an interest in old watches when I received by great-grandfather's Waltham a few years ago. One reference I found that explains the history of watch development is the book titled WATCHES 1850-1980 written by M. Cutmore. There are explanations of the progression of movement development in attempts to provide greater accuracy at each step.

Some pictures of my watch:




I had the watch serviced by a local jeweler. It runs quite well, but I don't wear it often. I've found that the ticking a bit distracting in an office meeting. My great-grandfather carried it every day as evidenced by the scratches on the crystal. The back cover is gold plated with most of the plating worn away. I feel very lucky to have a watch like this and knowing some of the history.

Note that the number of positions at which the watch was adjusted is not specified on the movement. A little research at the Waltham Collectors web site may turn up specific information if you want to know more about a watch before you buy it. Of course, after more than 100 years, even a carefully adjusted watch may not keep time as well as a watch adjusted at fewer positions (right, Ben?).

Jim,

Thanks for the photos of your watch.

Your watch, while not RR grade, has a couple of other interesting things going for it.

The first is this frosted finish. This was applied to only a relatively small fraction of Waltham model 1883 movements. The pattern on yours is not one I've seen before, although that's not a huge surprise as the artists at Waltham were given relatively free reign over the decoration on the early 1883 models. Even on watches that look similar there are always slight differences.

I really like the frosted movements, although I didn't own one until last weekend.

The other thing that your watch has going for it is that it has a non-magnetic balance wheel. Notice the white color of balance wheel(most balance wheels are brass on the outside). Also notice the four white color screws on the balance-these are platinum. Both of these are hallmarks of non-magnetics. Unfortunately, it appears as though the matching white non-magnetic hairspring(also made of a platinum alloy) is missing. The non-magnetic hairsprings were very soft and often got out of shape.

All Waltham watches at the time could be ordered as non-magnetic, but only a small percentage were.

Thus, the combination of a frosted finish and non-magnetic-while not rare-makes for a desirable watch.

Thanks for sharing it.

Hey guys,

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to show you my Grandfather's NYC RR pocket watch.

It's a Ball (Cleveland), Official RR Standard, in a 10K Goldfilled Keystone Watch Case.

21 jewel, 5 position serial number B270815 (case is 9735458). Its inscribed "sapphire pallets" on the movement back.

I know its not a really expensive watch, especially since my grandafther said the NYC garnished his wages to pay for it...

BUT, the best part is everytime it was inspected, the inside back of the case was inscribed with the date, with the earliest from April 17th, 1934.

I'll post some pics when I'm back at work on Monday.

Thanks,
Mario

As I promised...

Can anyone offer more details about the watch (date, model...?)







Thanks,
Mario

Hi Mario,

Thanks for the photo.

It looks to me like you have a Ball-Waltham. Ball did not make their own watches, per se, but rather ordered watches made to their specifications from the major manufacturers. It appears as though yours was made by Waltham, as can be determined from the shape of the hairspring stud.

I don't know a whole lot about Ball watches, and don't have any reference material here with me at work. I'll be back with more when I get home today.

I would like to know if the Elgin is worth repairing. I just want to use it because I am not a wristwatch guy.
Thanks, Malcolm
'

quote:

Originally posted by Brother_Love:
Hello All,
I was given a box a mostly railroad items a week ago and these watches were inside. They do not run and I doubt that they are anything special but I thought I would show them to you. Malcolm

Hi Malcolm,

Can you post a photo with the back removed from the Elgin? It should screw off.

This would tell a lot more about what type of movement it is, and whether or not it's worth repairing.

Does anyone know of a jeweler who culd or would repair this watch? I would like to get it repaired so I can use it. Malcolm

Here is the photo. If it is worth repairing, who would you recommend? Thanks, Malcolm

This has been a great thread. I have had only a passing interest in railroad pocket watches, at least up till now!

Ben, what's the normal accuracy in a watch like a Hamilton 992 or 992B? Would it be more than 15 seconds in a day?

Thanks,

Jim

quote:

Ben, what's the normal accuracy in a watch like a Hamilton 992 or 992B? Would it be more than 15 seconds in a day?

RR time service requirements were that a watch be capable of holding its rate to +/- 30 s/week, which allows for an error of a little more than 4s/day.

Watches in good running order can do a lot better than this. Just as a real-world example, I've been carrying a 16 size Illinois A. Lincoln for about a month now, and once I cleaned it and got regulated well, it's been running about -30s every 10 days-I think that I can get it closer than this even. RR accuracy requires that a watch be well set up, though-the balance pivots must be true and well polished, the balance must be both in true and in poise, the hairspring must be correctly shaped, the beat needs to be pretty darn close, and the balance amplitude must be acceptably high. After 100 years of watches being handled by watchmakers of varying competence, whether or not a watch will give this performance is questionable(although most can be brought back to this with enough work).

The Elinvar Extra hairspring combined with a monometallic balance wheel in the Hamilton 992B all but eliminates middle temperature error. Middle temperature error can amount to 1-2s/day in watches with monometallic balances. So, all else being equal, a 992B will be more accurate than any older watch.

Here are a few recent acquisitions

First a couple that are new to me, but are similar to ones that have been posted here before

A pair of Waltham Vanguards-one in 16 size, and one in 18 size. The 18 size differs in having the 1908 Ohlson's patent regulator rather than the star wheel regulator



Next, a 16 size Vanguard. This one is nicer than mine posted earlier, with a diamond endstone on the balance and gold jewel settings



This one also has a Montgomery dial



A Hampden Wm. McKinley



And, then, finally, a really interesting Illinois private label. This is a 21j gr. 65-E, a fairly scarce grade to start with. This one is a private label for John C. Pierik, a Springfield jeweler. This particular watch is an upgrade from normal 65-E quality, but a small step down from Bunn Special quality. It also has a Bunn Special grade dial.

A long-time collector who has several Pierik watches(but not one just like this) has told me that Pierik was sometimes used as a close-out agent for old inventory.

I believe that this particular watch would have been fully railroad approved at the time of its construction.

Ben is correct about the Hamilton 992B.

Just got one and it is a beautiful piece of work. Runs nice too!

Larry

Here are a couple of 1883 model Walthams. The first is a Crescent St. grade with a different damaskeen pattern than any I have(I've yet to see two of these that are exactly alike)



Next is one which I've had for a while, but didn't realize what it was. This is a grade 35. The finish on it is roughly equal to an Appleton, Tracy & Co. grade. Contemporary advertisements stated that the gr. 35 was adjusted to hot, cold, and 6 positions.

Casey Jones carried a Waltham gr. 35



As I said, I had this one for a while, and didn't realize just what exactly this attractive movement was. I primarily bought it for the dial, which would not pass railroad inspection. It's awfully nice to get a $1200 dial on a $200 watch