Railroad Pocket Watches

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:
Unfortunately the only pocket watches I have run on batteries. It's not the same.

Sounds like a purchase is in order before 765 hits the road again.

While Jack might counsel you to look at a Bunn Special or a B. W. Raymond, I've always been partial to Hamilton (thanks to my father and frequent trips to Strasburg).

On eBay I've seen good condition 992Bs from around 1950 (in the stainless no. 15 case) going for as little as $200. A couple of weeks ago I got very lucky and won a 1947 992B (in a "shouldered A" case) for less than that (about $100 less than normal), and it's keeping perfect time.

Carrying a railroad-grade watch is one of life's little pleasures - treat yourself

JAC

quote:

Unfortunately the only pocket watches I have run on batteries. It's not the same.

Rich Melvin, Publisher

You mean like this?

Jim,

At least it sort of has a Montgomery dial



Just last week, I bought my first Bunn Special. I'll try and get it photographed and posted here sometime soon.

If you want something really impressive, though, go for a "Big Bunn" with 24 jewels

If you want to keep it to Illinois-made watches, Rockford(in Rockford, Illinois) also made some great watches, and are a bit less common than some of the other makes. Rockford went out of business in 1915. The Winnebago was one of their more popular RR models, although only 17 jewels. They made quite a few numbered grades, as well as some named grades, with 21 jewels that were the equal of anything else available at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by smd4:
The jewels were just that--small pieces of polished ruby. The jewels served as nearly frictionless surfaces for gear pivot points to rotate on. The more jewels--the thinking went--the better the watch quality.

Somewhat reminds me of the transistor radio craze of the late 1950s. The more transistors, the better the radio the public assumed. So you bought a 25 transistor radio. Only problem was 5 were working, the others weren't connected to anything and along for the advertising ride. Had a radio like that, took it apart and sure enough, only a few were active, the rest were stuffed in the board but their leads connected to themselves. But by golly, it was a 20 transitor radio!!

Of course I don't imagine watchmakers stuffed jewels in just for advertising.

quote:

Of course I don't imagine watchmakers stuffed jewels in just for advertising.

Believe it or not, yes it did go on, and in a big way.

I mentioned above a 24 jewel Bunn Special, which is just such an example.

More later.

quote:

Believe it or not, yes it did go on, and in a big way.

Ben,
I think the article I mentioned above speaks of this happening.

Interesting stuff. I've thought about collecting railroad pocket watches but just couldn't find the time.

Ben,
I sent you an email...if it came through.

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:

quote:

Of course I don't imagine watchmakers stuffed jewels in just for advertising.

Believe it or not, yes it did go on, and in a big way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_watch

quote:

by the early 20th century watch movements had been standardized to the point that there was little difference between their mechanisms, besides quality of workmanship. So watch manufacturers made the number of jewels, one of the few metrics differentiating quality watches, a major advertising point, listing it prominently on the watch's face. Consumers, with little else to go on, learned to equate more jewels with more quality in a watch. Although initially this was a good measure of quality, it gave manufacturers an incentive to increase the jewel count.

Around the 1960s this 'jewel craze' reached ridiculous heights, and manufacturers made watches with 41, 53, 75, or even 100 jewels. Most of these additional jewels were totally nonfunctional; they never contacted moving parts, and were included just to increase the jewel count. For example the Waltham 100 jewel watch consisted of an ordinary 17 jewel movement, with 83 tiny pieces of ruby mounted around the automatic winding rotor.

Thanks John.
So I guess never say never when it comes to thinking it can't be done.

While there were some crazy numbers of jewels being used in the 1970s, I'd argue that it stretches back even into the 1890s.

When you get right down to it, 17 jewels are all that are really necessary.

Ben: This is, as Rich said, a fascinating thread. I pulled the family RR watch down from the shelf and it appears to be much like the Waltham 21 jewel that you talked about earlier, marked 19 jewel. It does run, has two opening doors on the back, push the wind screw down and the front opens. It has a very interesting table top mounting, we were told that a family member was once a telegraph operator, which might account for the mounting.

Question.

How do you set the time?

 

Mike,

Very nice looking watch.

I'd guess it's a lever set. To set the time, you'll need to open the bezel and find the set lever, which is probably located at around the 4 minute mark(although it may be at the 56 minute mark or 12 minute mark). The set lever is pulled out and away from the watch in a sort of curving motion. You then turn the crown to set the time, and push the lever back in.

If that doesn't work, try pulling the crown out-just as you would do on a wrist watch-and turning it.

If you could provide the serial number off the movement, I could tell you more about it.

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:
When you get right down to it, 17 jewels are all that are really necessary.

Why the odd number 17? I would think you needed an even number, one for each side of almost every moving parts.

Ben:
A couple of different numbers. Back door and inside back door. 35270. On the silver inside back 14057587 With the front open there appears to be marks at both 4 and 10, where someone has dug at the white watch face, but I don't see a lever or mechanical piece.
I'm glad I asked, your first thought is to just move the hands to the current time.

Yes, I found the set lever at two o'clock, out in a curving motion up toward the stem which engaged the winding screw to set the time. Time set, carefully push the set lever back in and close the face. .

Mike

Sam,

I'm working on a long explanation, but in short you are correct that jewels come in pairs for moving parts. The exception is the one odd jewel, called the roller jewel, which is one of the seven fundamental jewels found in every quality watch.

If you will look back through this thread, you will see that almost every watch posted has an odd number of jewels.

Mike,

Glad that you found it.

What you have is a 19 jewel model 1892 Vanguard. This was Waltham's best grade of the premium 1892 model, and they were made with jewel counts ranging from 17 jewels all the way up to 23 jewels. The 19 jewel variation is actually somewhat uncommon, with only 4490 having been made in open face.

You have a nice watch, and one which is worth holding on to and taking care of.

Thanks again Ben
Mike

My latest acquisition.



Ben,
Knowing little about pocket watches, can the second hand be stopped right on the 60 mark to set the time just right?

Jim,

Sharp looking watch with a nice Montgomery dial.

There's no built in mechanism to stop the second hand when setting the time. As far as I know, this feature-called hacking-doesn't exist on any American made PW save for the Hamilton 4992B(a purpose-built WWII era 24 hour watch).

You can have a watchmaker tighten the canon pinion-the clutch that slips to allow hand setting-so that when the crown is turned backwards it will stop the watch. I don't like this option, however, since I personally feel as though it puts too much strain on the watch when setting the time forward.

There are two other options-both done strictly at your own risk, but both of which I have used.

The first is to use a small folded slip of paper to stop the balance wheel when the hand reaches 60. You then set the time to the next minute, and remove the paper to restart the watch when the references time reaches the top of the minute.

Finally, the option which I personally use most of the time, takes advantage of the fact that the second hand post is usually somewhat of a loose fit on the 4th wheel pinion. What I do is set the minute hands as accurately as possible(pull the lever out, set the time to the next minute, hold backward pressure on the crown to keep the hands still, push the lever in when the minute is reached). I then use a toothpick to carefully nudge the second hand around until it syncs correctly with the reference time source.

If the second hand offers any resistance, stop. At best you'll stop the watch, and at worse you'll sheer the second hand right off its tube(and they're a bear to reattach).

Thanks Ben. I think I'll just let things be then.

quote:

Originally posted by OGR Webmaster:
This is an absolutely fascinating thread.



Unfortunately the only pocket watches I have run on batteries. It's not the same.

Yes it is!

quote:

Originally posted by Big Jim:
Thanks Ben. I think I'll just let things be then.

Ah, the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" What the fun in that?

Here's my latest acquisition, that I've had for about two weeks now.

This is an Illinois 16 size model 9 21 jewel Bunn Special. The Bunn Special was Illinois's most popular railroad grade watch, and was always near the top of the Illinois line. This particular damaskeen variant is known as the "4th Pattern Rayed" and is the most common seen on the 16 size Bunn Specials.

This was an Ebay purchase that just went to show why I don't like to buy on Ebay as it had numerous undisclosed problems and ran very poorly when I received it. Fortunately, the seller and I reached an amicable resolution, and I now have it running well. The nice Montgomery dial made up for some of the issues, too

I had a neat experiance today.
A few days ago, I was looking at my late father-in-law's B.W. Raymond pocket watch and could not get the back to unscrew. Yesterday, I took it to my regular jeweler to see if he could remove the back. No dice, it was stuck. He thought it might be because of a loose case screw and suggested a particular man at another jewelry store that might have better tools in order to remove the back.

Today, I took the watch to the jewelers to see if this man could repair it,never figuring he would actually be there. As luck would have it, he was there and was able to get right on it. I walked around the mall while he did his thing, waiting for a return call to tell me it was ready.

After about 45min., I returned and was able to speak with the repairman. He was able to remove the back and said that a case screw had been the culprit. He had also taken the time to polish some unsightly marks off of the back. With the exception of some very small dents due to normal wear, it now looks as good as new.

As it turned out, this man had been a former watch inspector for the N&W. Better yet, he had actually worked on my father-in-law's watch back in 1960. We spoke for some time about how things used to be on the RR regarding watch inspections and such. This all may sound trivial to you, but, it really made my day!

Big Jim,
And what's nicer is that gentleman took the time to remenice about the good old days (which of course always seem sweeter and memorable as time moves on and the ugly fades). Glad he could get that watch going for you.

quote:

Originally posted by ddurling:
Thanks for the concern. Turns out I was totally wrong about the shop! With a bit of sleuthing, I found out the owner had to undergo a medical procedure and was out for a bit. His answering machine filled up and stopped working properly. He'll be back to work soon and will give me an update on the watch. It would've been helpful to post a notice at the shop, but perhaps there was a medical emergency and he didn't have time.

Well, I had a not-so-nice day today. Without going into all the messy details, I went and picked up my pocketwatch from the repair shop. Still not fixed after being there two months. He said he replaced the main spring but it still needed a click spring, but when I picked it up he didn't charge me anything which makes me think he never actually did any work on it.

So, any idea how to find a reputable pocket watch repair service?

Here are two recent acquisitions.

The first is a recent Ebay purchase, and a project that I hope will be quickly completed. It is a 23 jewel Illinois Sangamo. This what is known as a "Getty" model, which was one of Illinois' earlier 16 size designs. The Getty model is distinctive for having a a single large winding wheel(most watches have 2), and a crescent shaped winding click.

The Sangamo was near the highest grade Getty model produced. What's interesting, however, is the location of the additional jewels for a total of 23. On this watch, the 3rd wheel is cap jeweled. The 3rd wheel turns very slowly(about 6 times per hour), and the advantage of a cap jewel here is questionable. Even so, it's still a very attractive and high grade watch.





The second is one which many folks would dismiss as not being a railroad watch, due to its hunting case and roman numeral dial. This watch, however, was produced in 1888-well before either were banned from entering service. Thus, this Waltham model 1883 Crescent Street would have been widely accepted for use on the railroads.

I'm a sucker for a good deal.

I attended the Southern Ohio Regional Meeting of the National Association of Watch and Clock collectors a few days ago. I was mostly on the hunt for Early American watches-I bought three Walthams made during the Civil War(the oldest from 1862), as well as a watch from the United States Watch Company of Marion, NJ. I found a couple of Railroads really inexpensively, though, and couldn't pass them up.

The first of which was a friend who pulled out a Waltham model 1883 Appleton, Tracy and Company movement only and offered it to me for $40. I couldn't pass up such an attractive movement for that price.



The second was a Hamilton 992 on which the winding was frozen. The condition was really great, though, with no wear-through on the case and a perfect double sunk Montgomery dial. A quick cleaning, and it now keeps perfect time.

This is an example of what's known as the second pattern damaskeen. This is similar to what is seen on the 992B, and less elaborate than what is seen on the earlier(type I) 992. Still a very attractive movement, though.

Ia m amazed at these watches like your Civil War one. Just like that corny Timex jingle "takes a likin and keeps on tickin". Wonder how many things we posses today will endure (and work) like these RR watches?

Here's the best of the early Walthams I bought on Friday. Despite being filthy, it actually started right up once I replaced a broken part(the mainspring click).



It even keeps decent time now that it's been cleaned.

quote:

Originally posted by ddurling:

quote:

Originally posted by ddurling:
Thanks for the concern. Turns out I was totally wrong about the shop! With a bit of sleuthing, I found out the owner had to undergo a medical procedure and was out for a bit. His answering machine filled up and stopped working properly. He'll be back to work soon and will give me an update on the watch. It would've been helpful to post a notice at the shop, but perhaps there was a medical emergency and he didn't have time.

Well, I had a not-so-nice day today. Without going into all the messy details, I went and picked up my pocketwatch from the repair shop. Still not fixed after being there two months. He said he replaced the main spring but it still needed a click spring, but when I picked it up he didn't charge me anything which makes me think he never actually did any work on it.

So, any idea how to find a reputable pocket watch repair service?

All I had to do was look on this forum. Ben Hutcherson offered to help get my watch running so I sent the watch off to him. In about a week he sent it back to me in perfect working order, for a modest service charge. To hear that watch ticking away after all these years is pretty gratifying. Thanks, Ben!

Dave,

I was certainly happy to get your watch running again. I get a lot of satisfaction out of taking watches that have been silent for a long time, and getting them running again.

There's nothing quite like the feeling when you wind the mainspring a few clicks, drop the balance in the watch, and have it take off running for the first time in who knows how long.

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:
Dave,

I was certainly happy to get your watch running again. I get a lot of satisfaction out of taking watches that have been silent for a long time, and getting them running again.

There's nothing quite like the feeling when you wind the mainspring a few clicks, drop the balance in the watch, and have it take off running for the first time in who knows how long.

Not unlike taking a basket case engine, car, or accessory and restoring it to like new and get it running like a fine watch.

I bought a few watches this past week, and also took the chance to catch up on some photography for some watches which I've had for a while.

I had someone locally ask me if I had a 23j 16 size Vanguard to sell. I didn't, but a quick trip to Ebay led me to not one, but two watches needing fairly simple repairs. I bought them both, and will probably keep one and sell the other.

Once just needed a quick cleaning, and took right off.





Here's the other-awaiting a simple yet important part called the shipper spring(which I had to order) and a balance staff(which I fortunately have).



And, a couple of others which I've had for a little while.

Here's a private label Hamilton 940.



And, a high-grade 17 jewel Illinois Getty Model-a grade 187. Note the glass-enamel dial with a gothic style signature-a mark of quality on Illinois watches. Although this one doesn't offer a lot of eye candy, the quality of finish on it is superb. These are interesting in that they were advertised as being adjusted to 6 positions-one of the few 17 jewel watches so adjusted.





This is a fairly scarce watch to begin with. It was made in both an open faced and hunting cased versions. Total production of this variant is listed as 5,160. Of these, 1610 were hunting cased, and 3750 open faced.

The open faced versions, however, can be broadly divided into two categories-single roller(which mine is) and double roller-which were later. There were only 1500 made in single roller.

This can be further broken down, as among the 1500 single roller OF watches, there have been four observed marking variants. According to the reference I'm using(the Illinois Encyclopedia), more than half of these 1500 movements were randomly marked with grade number. So, that means that my watch is one of only about 700 unmarked gr.187 movements.

Furthermore, some are simply marked "Adjusted" and some marked "Adjusted 6 positions, Isochronism." This is related to age, with newer movements(by SN) being fully marked.

So, by my calculation, this is probably one of 300-500 fully unmarked gr.187 movements. Certainly not rare, but not common either. This is probably of little interest to most here, but at least I think worth pointing out.

Here's another interesting one, a very recent lucky Ebay find.

I spotted this one in a large lot with little information about each individual watch. There were no pictures with the backs removed, and no serial number information was included. There was a junky looking 992B in a stainless case, and then this unknown watch with a good dial.



Prospective purchasers take note-if you see this dial, you know there's a good watch behind it.

In this case, this is what I found behind it.

WOW! That has to be one of the very nicest Illinois watches I've ever seen, especially with no cracks in the dial (from what I can see in your photo).

How much do you want for it?

There is a small hairline in the outer chapter that runs through the 2 numeral and the 11 minute mark, although it soaked out to being nearly invisible.

Not sure I want to sell this one just yet, as I have been looking for an 18 size Bunn Special for a little while. Plus, it has some lingering issues that I'd like to fix before I sell it(if I ever do). If you're seriously interested in one, though, e-mail me at bhutche0@gmaill.com and I can probably find one for you reasonably. I'm going to an NAWCC regional at the end of June, and possibly another in August, and would be happy to look for one there.

Thanks for the offer Ben, but I didn't realize that was an 18 size Illinois. I prefer the 16 size since they fit in my bibs watch pocket better. Although I don't have a big collection of RR pocket watches, I do have two Illinois 21 jewels "Bunn Special" models; one from 1927 and one from 1928, both 16 size. Sad to say I had to sell my 1906 Illinois 23 jewels "Bunn Special", when we got into "income tax" trouble back in 2000. Oh well.

I still have some nice ones left to "look the part" when on the engine.

Thanks again.

Totally understand on the size issue. 18 sizes are more difficult to carry since they are not only larger but also considerably thicker. Since I carry a pocket watch almost every day, I shop for pants with a watch pocket large enough for an 18 size watch. They're few and far between, and even a 16 size is a tight fit in some.

I hate to brag too much, but I'm really happy with this watch. The damaskeen pattern on this is called the Illinois "Bright Spot" pattern. It's most common on the 18 size 21 and 24j Bunn Specials, but also shows up on some early 16 size model 9 Bunn Specials. The most common 16 size model 4 and 5 Sangamo also use this pattern. It's really quite striking in person, although it doesn't photograph terribly well.

As I said, I really bought this one more or less blind. That particular dial was only used on 18 size Bunn, Bunn Special, and A. Lincoln watches. Finding a 21j Bunn Special behind the dial was as good of a find as it could have been aside from a 24j Bunn Special.

I cleaned the Bunn Special last night, and it kept perfect time when I carried it today.

Hopefully, the 992B out of the same lot will turn out just as well. I just finished cleaning it and changing the balance staff a few minutes ago, so we'll see how it keeps time.

quote:

Originally posted by LLKJR:


Ben,

Your admonition to trust the dial as an indication of a good watch behind it (when there are no pictures of the movement) is akin to a used car salesman pointing out the great body on that used car but not letting you look under the hood.

Caveat Emptor.

Larry

And I respectfully request that you keep your opinion to yourself without knowing the full details of the transaction.