Railroad Pocket Watches

Its great to see some new posts to this thread!  I always enjoy the craftsmanship that went into these watches.

 

Ben, if I may ask a question?  How does one find a skilled craftsman to service these watches?  I have gone on the internet to try and find someone to service my Illinois Bunn Special (from page 6 of this thread) but have not really had much luck.  I would appreciate any advice you might be able to offer, either on this thread or at jd-train@comcast.net

 

Thanks,

 

Jim

 

 

Ben, I tried to split the case but it doesn't want to come apart and I was fearful of damaging it. I figured I'd just leave it to a pro to take care of it, provided I can find one.

Ditto to what jd-train said.

Hello Ben,  I was given a Hamilton 992 circa 1919 16s watch for christmas a few years ago.  It is in fantastic shape .  The funny thing is that it is in a Ball marked case with the safety sturrip.  Is that normal for this watch.  Its a keystone case # 5414006 20 year J Boss.  marked Ball Model.  The movement # is 1606809  **992 adjusted 5 positions, double roller.  Any ideas would be great.  It wears a fantastic double sunk dial with  red minute marks.  

 

Glenn

Jim,

 

The NAWCC and AWCI both maintain lists of repairers by area.

 

http://www.nawcc.org/index.php/business-directory

 

http://directory.awci.com/page.php?id=1

 

Doug,

From the look of your watch, it appears as though your is either a screw back and bezel case, or a swing-ring case. For a screw back and bezel case, the back should simply unscrew with finger pressure.

 

If it's a swing ring case, you will pop the stem out to the second "click"(similar to the setting position on a modern wristwatch) and unscrew the bezel. The movement is attached to a ring that is held in the case by a hinge at 12:00, and can be lifted out by a notch at 6:00.

 

Glenn,

 

Hamilton-marked watches will not normally be found in Ball marked cases. With that said, though, a Ball marked case is definitely a very desirable and interesting piece in and of its own right.

A little bit earlier on this page, I posted a photo of a watch for Fred Pieper in Covington, KY. Here's another for Fred Pieper. This one is a 17j Illinois Bunn grade.

 

 

 

This is an interesting Illinois watch, although one which needs a lot of work and is overall poor cosmetically.

 

It is a gr. 65-E signed for Ambrose, Kent & Sons Toronto. What makes it interesting is the level of finish on it. It has gold jewel settings-a rarity on the gr. 65-E, and is marked "21 Ruby Jewels." I've had several 65-Es of varying levels of finish, and I would consider this one fully equal to a Bunn Special. As far as I know, these Ambrose, Kent and Sons watches(there were probably 10 of them) are the only 65-Es which were finished fully to BS quality.

 

Trying to keep the Illinois theme on this page going

 

Here's something that many folks would instinctively look at and declare to not be a RR grade watch as it has the winding stem at 3:00(to properly be fitted into a hunting case). None the less, at the time this watch was made, it would have been accepted for time service on most North American railroads. This is a 21j hunting case Sangamo grade

 

It's nice to see the activity on this thread.  I have a question about changing movements in a case.

 

I have an open face 18S Waltham watch, lever set with the stem at 3 o'clock.  If I purchase an 18S movement that is lever set with the stem at 12 o'clock, can it be used in the case that I have?  I should probably just buy another watch, but I do like to tinker with stuff like this!

 

Hi Jim,

 

The short answer is that yes, you probably can do that with no special considerations-any 18 size American movement would likely drop right in.

Here's the longer and more complete answer:

 

Waltham made 18 size movements in seven different models: the 1857 model, 1859, 1870, 1877, 1879, 1883, and 1892 models. The 1859 model is irrelevant to our discussion as it was only made in keywind and faded into obsolescence in the 1860s.

Of the remaining models, several have some special casing requirements.

 

The 1857 model, as a stemwind watch, was only made as a hunting case movement. The stemwind versions of these have a male stem on the movement(requiring a female stem in the case). The set lever is a bit of a different configuration from that typically seen on later watches, and requires a fairly wide slot as well as some special clearance in the bezel in order to fit.

 

The 1870 model, like the 1857 model, when made in stemwind has a male stem also. These actually came with a couple of different setting mechanisms, including button setting, nail setting, and lever setting. The button and nail set versions are not readily adaptable to a case not made for them. The lever set versions operate similarly to the 1857 models, and carry the same considerations.

 

The 1877 and 1879 models have a set lever the same location and width as a "standard" lever. Most of these movements, however, have male stems on the movement that require a female stem in the case(some do have female stems on the movement). Incidentally, all 1877 models wind at 3:00(or are keywind) and all 1879 models wind at 12:00.

 

The 1883 model is the most common Waltham 18 size model, and shares casing characteristics with most of its contemporary 18 size watches from other makers. The stem and set lever configurations are the same. It's worth noting, however, that nearly all open face 1883 model movements are stem set, whereas all 1883 hunting case movements are lever set.

 

The 1892 model is a bit of a different breed but will fit any case that the 1883 model will fit. The better grade open face 1892 models(Vanguard, Crescent St, 845, Appleton, Tracy & Co) tend to be lever set, whereas the mid grade ones(PS Bartlett) tend to be pendant set when open face. Early open face 1892s tend to all be pendant set(pre SN 7.5 million or so). All hunting case 1892s are lever set.

Jim writes: I have an open face 18S Waltham watch, lever set with the stem at 3 o'clock.  If I purchase an 18S movement that is lever set with the stem at 12 o'clock, can it be used in the case that I have?

 

Hi friends, I am new to this forum and thought I would comment on Jim's message:

 

If a picture of the movement is not possible, just give the name and serial number of the movement. Many things can be determined from just the serial number.

 

It sounded to me like your watch, Jim, is a hunter movement in an open face case. These are sometimes called 'sidewinders'. As Ben suggested, if your watch is a Waltham model 1883, or 1892, then an open face movement should fit nicely into your case. OR, your movement should fit nicely into an 18s hunter case with a lever slot.

 

It's been a while, so I thought I'd update this post with a recent acquisition. This is a relatively early 18 size, 21 jewel Bunn Special 2nd pattern "Gold Inlaid Circle" with a fairly scarce movement signature.

 

I picked this one up at the Louisville, KY gun show a few weeks back. The watch was labeled "21 jewels" by a sticker on the back, but we couldn't get the back off and the seller offered me a great deal in light of this. With the style of dial on this watch, I thought that the watch had a very good chance of being this particular pattern Bunn Special. The scarce signature was a nice bonus.

Nice find!

 

--Greg

WOW Lot's of very nice looking watches. I don't think I could carry one of them because I would be concerned about breaking it. I am a Timex guy. If I break it I figure I had my moneys woth out of it and go back and buy another Timex.

 

Those watches pictured here are really FINE LOOKING TIME PIECES. Thanks to all for sharing them.

I send my Timex to hot line watch repair and for 12 dollars I get it fixed. Been using the same watch for 25 years. Al

I would LOVE to own one of these. Anyone know where / if I might be able to find one?

 

Ben,

 

Don't know if this has been asked...what makes a pocket watch a "Railroad" watch?  I know some brands/types of watches were preferred/required for RR use, but what makes the distinction between the two?

 

I'm like Allan Miller, the only RR watch I have is one of those inexpensive battery operated ones (kids got it for me).

 

Funny, I haven't worn a watch in 10+ years, but own maybe 10 of them, including an old Omega Seamaster I bought back in 1970 or so (and is no longer waterproof), I should get it fixed but it'll cost more than what I paid for it to fix it.

What is a Railroad Watch?

A railroad watch is an antique or vintage collectible time piece that once earned official certification by one or more railroad companies as meeting stringent qualifications. Also known as a railroad standard, this type of time piece had to undergo the scrutiny of each particular railroad firm’s watch inspector togain certification. According to the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors (NAWCC), the standards for judging railroad watches changed frequently over the years. As timepiece technology developed and as new inspectors came on board, certification guidelines underwent many alterations.Railroad watches are popular among collectors for several reasons. A certified standard timepiece exudes the popular romance of railroad history. Their enduring quality means that many collectible railroad watches are still inservice today, offering contemporary railroad buffs the chance to enjoy their own pocket-size pieces of bygone days.

 

Prominent Railroad Watch Makers

The following U.S. watch manufacturers are among the mostwell-know railroad chronometer makers.

Company	Dates of Operation	Location
Ball Watch	1879-1969	Cleveland, Ohio
Columbus Watch	1874-1903	Columbus, Ohio
Elgin Watch	1864-1964	Chicago, Ill.
Hamilton Watch	1892-present	Lancaster, Penn.
Hampden Watch	1877-1930	Springfield, Mass. and Canton, Ohio
·  Howard	1858-1903	Roxbury, Mass.
Howard Watch/Keystone	1902-1930	Waltham, Mass.
Illinois Watch	1869-1927	Springfield, Ill.
Rockford Watch	1873-1915	Rockford, Ill.
Seth Thomas	1883-1915	Thomaston, Conn.
Waltham Watch	1851-1957	Waltham, Mass.

My Father had a Waltham and father-in-law had a Hamilton, both of which I have passed on to my two sons

As for me, I had a "dollar watch", an Ingersoll to go with my 1938 Marx NYC winder.

While there are always exceptions, as a basic rule of thumb, RR watches *generally* were open-faced (no closed "Hunter" cases), had Arabic, not Roman numerals, were "lever" set, meaning you opened the crystal and lifted a tiny lever that allowed the watch to be set--you didn't pull up and twist the crown (This was a safety feature to prevent the watch from changing time while in the pocket); had 21 jewels (in earlier days less jewels could be used); had a separate second hand--not a sweep second hand, and had the crown at the 12 o'clock position, not the 3'o'clock position. Those are generally the visual clues that you can often use to tell if a watch was railroad grade.

Interesting find. I'm guessing that's a fake.

Here is what I consider to be something of a definitive reference on Railroad Watches, written by RR watch authority Kent Singer

 

http://ph.nawcc.org/Railroad/Railroad.htm

More cool watches. WOW VERY VERY NICE!!!!!!

Here's a really nice watch that I owned briefly not too long ago, a 992B with box and papers

 

 

Agreed, it is a fake. Notice that it is actually a STOP WATCH. Looks very similar to the old Hamilton, black face, Naval artillery stop watch I have someplace in my small collection.

Actually, I wouldn't immediately dismiss it off-hand as being a fake.

 

I've seen a fair number of fake railroad engravings, and this one does not strike me as one of those. The engraving at least looks period correct.

 

Gallet has a picture of a this watch(as well as a time-only watch engraved for Webb C. Ball) on their website. The fact that Gallet claims it makes me think that it's probably real.

By the way, this is a chronograph and not a stopwatch. A stopwatch does not have a timekeeping function separate from the start-stop-reset as does a chronograph.

Are you sure about that? My Hamalton Naval artillery "Stop Watch" is essentially a 992/992B movement with the stop watch function added on top of it.

I'm mostly being pedantic, but as I said a stopwatch by definition is a device which can only serve as a timer.

Your Hamilton 23 and the Gallet pictured above are chronographs. A chronograph by definition has a timekeeping function as well as a start/stop/reset timing function that can be operated independently of the time train.

I see that now.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of pocket watches with the OGR forum.

The pix below is of the Illinois Watch "Santa Fe Special" that has been in the family for over 100 years.

Would you please provide the background history for this cherished family heirloom.

I wish to have the watch serviced. Can you recommend a watchmaker in the southeastern USA? 

Thank you.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

Bill,

I would recommend mailing the watch to Mark, address at website below. 

 

http://www.watchdoctor.biz/Default.aspx

 

Thanks for the lesson on RR watches

 

If I ever win the lottery I may get one (and get my Omega Sea Master fixed).

 

Watches and firearms are pieces of artwork to me, can't imagine making some of these pieces.

Just stumbled across this thread; don't have much to add except that, back in the 1980's

an uncle of my wife's gave me his old Hamilton "Railway Special", which he

had purchased when he was hired by the Northern Pacific (BN by the time I met him) as a young man (18 or so). I believe that he said that he actually started out firing steamers,

right at their end on the NP. He gave it to me because he knew that I was a rail fan/

modeler, and to him, railroading was a job: out of sight, out of mind. He did his job (engineer) and took pride in doing it well, but it was understandably not a hobby also.

 

I'm looking at the watch right now. I had forgotten about it, but now I give it a little wind every day or so just to keep it limber. I know very little about watches, but I always regarded the Hamilton and Elgin brands as the best, in general. Not sure why.

 

Anyway, the wife is gone, the uncle is gone (I guess), the BN is gone, but my ex-NP,

Spokane-area watch is alive and well on the Alabama Gulf Coast.

D500, how about a pix of your Hamilton "Railway Special".

thanks,

Bill

Ben, thanks for the info regarding my Illinois "Santa Fe Special" PW.

I attempted to open the back of the case to expose the movement without success.

Did not wish to damage the case.

I would be grateful for a referral to a trusted watchmaker in the Southeast that can service my PW. I am in Atlanta.

Thanks again for sharing the details of my Santa Fe Special PW.

Bill

For those in the Kentucky area with an interest in watches, there is an NAWCC regional on January 17-18 in  Lexington, KY.

 

NAWCC regionals consist of a mart(swap meet) as well as a variety of educational talks and exhibits. Admission to the mart room requires a current membership in the NAWCC, but all educational activities are free and open to the public.

 

This year, we will be hosting a talk by my friend John Cote( www.interstatetime.com ) on "Collecting Watches without Going Broke." The talk will be at 11:00AM on Friday, January 17th.

 

The Lexington Regional will be held at the Clarion Hotel on Newtown Pike in Lexington. Please contact me for any additional details. 

Also, nice watches.

Ralph

My wife passed away May 3 and I haven't been posting much, but today as I was going thru some of her things I found this:

 

 

 

The face notation says "Ball Official RR Standard Cleveland".

 

I don't think it came from anyone on her side of the family that was a RRman, I know her grandfather was on the Vicksburg Police force (I have 2 of his badges, one is a captains badge).

 

Not sure how long this watch has been sitting, at least 25 years.  Should I try to wind it up or what's the first thing I should do?

 

(it must work, the second hand has moved 8 seconds since I took the photo)

Hi Bob,

First of all, my sincerest condolences on the loss of your wife.

 

From your photo, I'm going to throw out a guess that you have a 16 size Ball Hamilton with either 21 or 23 jewels(most likely 21). All RR grade Balls are superb watches, in any case.

A photo of it with the back removed(it should screw off) would reveal a lot.

 

As far as winding it-I'd give it at least a partial wind, and probably a full wind(until tight) and then set the time on it. You don't want to do this regularly with a watch with unknown service history, but at least on a running watch you're not harm it by winding it infrequently.

Ben,

Thanks for the condolences, she had not been in good health the last 3-4 years.  It was not unexpected, but I didn't expect it to happen when it did.  She had been in the hospital for a few days (thought she was doing good) and I saw her the night before and called her that morning to tell her I was on my way.  Before I could get a shower the hospital called and said to get up there ASAP.  Final determination was it was cardiac arrest (she had juvenile diabetes for 53 yrs).

 

I haven't taken the back off a watch in some time, anything I should look (out) for?

 

I don't know when her grandfather died or gave her mom the watch, but I'm pretty sure it was his.  Her mom had a habit of "putting stuff up" and it never seeing the light of day afterwards so it could have been "put up" for way longer than we were married (almost 25 yrs).  I'll ask my step-daughter, she may know.