Railroad Pocket Watches

I received a package in the mail today containing two nice Hamilton railroads.


Here are they are



The one on the right is an ever-popular 992, the one on the left something a little more special, a 990.

First the 992:



This was one of the most popular 16 size 21 jewel Railroad watches. It was made from 1903 through the mid 1930s(when it was replaced by the 992E and later the all-new 992B). There were over 400,000 992s made.

This one's not in the best of shape. The case is rough and is much too late for the watch. Also, besides the obvious missing second hand, the balance staff and mainspring are broken.

Now, the 990:



The 990 was an upgraded version of the 992. Where the 992 has a gold center wheel, the 990 has gold train. The damaskeen is much nicer on the 990, and extends to the pallet bridge. The regulator spring has the edges nicely rounded and polished.

Also, all 990s were fitted with a double roller escapement, where the 992 was initially fitted with a single roller(although later runs were fitted with a DR-the 990 was phased out about the same time the 992 went to DR).

Even more interesting, the 990 was made in much smaller numbers, with total production only around 16,000.

This one is cased in an unoriginal but very nice sterling case, and runs great.

Ben, you seem to know your stuff when it comes to pocket watches. Just a suggestion, but I'm sure there are many guys out there like myself who have wanted an authentic, reliable pocket watch but do not have the knowledge to justify spending a couple hundred bucks on one of these and guarantee it not to be a 'crap shoot.'

I always come across threads like these when disposable income is at an all time low, but I would feel comfortable buying a serviced watch from a person such as yourself, and paying what it's worth. A small internet store front may be in order here.

Montclaire,

My big problem is that once I get one, I don't want to get rid of it . Such is the curse of a collector.

If you'll send me an e-mail, though, I can give you a few names of reliable, honest sellers, one of whom should be able to set you up with a good and reliable watch.

Ben I haven't forgotten you but I'm chasing one locally that has a little history...

Not at all a problem.

My reason for continuing this thread is two fold-to create a sort of reference for some common(and not so common) and otherwise interesting RR models for folks who might be interested in buying one, and also just to show off watches in my collection.

I find the fine craftsmanship that is evident in all these watches to be absolutely amazing. When you realize that all that fine work was done BY HAND, not on some computer-driven CNC machine, it is even more amazing.

Ben, you obviously know your stuff and I have a question for you. What does the word "damaskeen" mean?

If I may, the damaskeen is the wavy, decorative patterns that are etched into the internal watch surfaces.

What I find fascinating is that all the decorative damaskeen was put there even though it would not be visible most of the time--maybe the only person who would ever see it was the watch repairman!

Imagine that--craftsmanship done purely for the sake of the art.

Steve is absolutely correct on the meaning of damaskeen.

It was done on a type of lathe called a rose engine. The basic set-up is something like the spirograph I(and many of you all I'm sure) had as a toy. Instead of a pencil or pen, though, used a small ivory buff with an abrasive to make the pattern.

Damaskeen is still practiced today by some Swiss companies, but it's usually in the fairly basic forms of Geneva Stripes, which are simple parallel lines like what you see on a Hamilton 992B, or perlage, which are small circles.

Waltham used a special type of rose engine on some of their models(1872, 1883) that gave each operator considerable control over the pattern. The model 1883s can make an interesting collection in and of themselves, since one almost never finds two that are exactly alike and some are quite fascinating in person.

Also, in addition to Steve's comments about these sort of things being rarely seen-it's even more impressive when you consider that high grade watches often have similar finishes even on parts that are not seen by anyone but the watchmaker.

Ben, were the gears of these watches hand made or machine made--or a combination?

Steve,

Most American watch parts were largely machine made. Part were made in bulk, by stamping, turning, or milling. Wheels were made by stamping, and pinions by turning and milling.

I have a movie taken in the Illinois factory in the 1920s that illustrates many of these operations. Much of the machinery was developed in the 1860s, although it was continuously improved. The watch industry gave us items that are now quite common in industrial machining-like the spring chuck(collet).

In fact, it was this high grade of machining which made American watches so much superior. Even on a high grade Swiss watch in the 1860s, the quality was often highly variable and replacement parts had to be custom fitted to the watch. American watches have a very high degree of interchangeability.

All that said, though, the final assembly and adjustment was always done by hand. This was the most labor intensive part of making a watch, and responsible for much of the associated cost.

Ben,
How did you get to know so much about watch repairs. Went to school, read up on them, just took one apart and put together?

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:
Steve is absolutely correct on the meaning of damaskeen.

Ben,
Was damaskeen done to impress the buyer when the jeweler removed the back, to show supposedly very high quality compared "to those other guys"? The more florishes/designs the better the supposedly craftmanship and increase sale possibilities?

I will try to post pictures when I get home, but I have owned a Hamiliton 992 since 1986, when I saw it advertised in the local paper at Christmas for $250. Being a crafty college student, I cut out the ad and casually hinted it would make a nice present.

The serial number dates it to 1933-35, and it still runs great. I use it at the NC Transportation Museum when I wear my conductor's uniform on the train or during school tours.

My everyday watch is currently a Bulova railroad approved wrist watch. I found this watch along the railroad tracks where I grew up, and turned in at our local RR museum, since the volunteers had connections at the yard. No one claimed it after 30 days, so I took it home! I just recently paid to have it cleaned and serviced similar to a pocket watch. I thought this was odd for a battery powered watch!

FWIW - Southern Railway kept a list of approved pocket and wrist watches in their employee timetable through the early 1990s. Norfolk Southern no longer requires approved watches that I know of.

Sam,

Truth be told, I'm mostly self-taught-and with a whole lot still to learn. About a year and a half ago, I bought a cheap watch that only sort of ran(it ran great dial up), and took it apart and cleaned it in lighter fluid.

The watch I selected was a 7 jewel, 18 size Elgin, which I later realized was probably one of the most difficult to reassemble watches in existence. Somehow or another, though, I got it back together, and although I didn't fix it, it ran no worse than it had before(incidentally I finally got around to really fixing that one a few weeks ago).

I kept at it, seeking a lot of advice from books, a couple of online fora(the NAWCC message board is great), and from a retired local watchmaker who I've befriended. About a month ago, I was able to buy the local watchmaker's tools, bench, and parts from him(all told about 3 car loads).

To answer your question on damaskeening: In the early years, a watch buyer wouldn't generally buy a complete watch. Rather, they would visit a dealer where they would select a movement to suit their taste and budget, and then select a case to also suit their taste and budget. The movements were often shipped from the manufacturer in tins with a glass front and back to allow them to be viewed. Thus, attractive damaskeen served to help make the initial sale.

Starting in the 1920s, watches commonly began being cased at the factory. A few years later(by the time the 992B was introduced) watches were only available cased. Thus, damaskeening lost its significance and this is why watches like the 992B have fairly basic decoration.

This has continued to today. Your average Rolex buyer will never see the inside of their watch(few people outside of dealers and watchmakers even have the correct tool to remove the back), and thus a Rolex movement has very little decoration.

Interesting discussion about damaskeening. My small collection of RR approved pocket watches only has a few damaskeened movements. However, my current wrist watch is a new (3 years old) Ball Trainmaster and it, surprisingly, has a glass back so you can see the plates & movement, but no fancy machineing, i.e. damaskeening.

Here is a photo of my pocketwatch:



This is as sterotypical a Hamilton 992 as you can get. The dial is a Montgomery, which was one of the most popular. The gold filled case has one of the most common designs. The movement was damaskeened, which is hard to photograph.

I like the chain which came with the watch. The links are small rectangles, which I have not seen anywhere else.

Larry,

Nice watch in a nice #2 factory case.

Your dial is one of my favorites, however it's not a Montgomery dial. The Montgomery is characterized by having each individual minute numbered. Also, a true Montgomery dial always has a small 6 within the sub second dial. My 992B, pictured earlier in this thread, has a Montgomery dial.

What you have is a double-sunk dial with a red 5-minute track.

Here's a very lucky local find-a scarce and desirable Illinois C&O Special. This was fairly late for an 18 size watch, and fairly late for a 17 jewel watch. Even so, it would still be considered Railroad grade.

This one is very rough-I bought it missing two of the three hands and with a beat-up Montgomery dial. When I removed the dial, I also found a broken 4th wheel pinion(the shaft on which the second hand is carried). Fortunately, I found a 4th wheel pinion that could be modified, and I've sourced a set of hands. The dial is going to be difficult, and I may have to keep it as-is.

Even so, I was very glad to have the opportunity to buy this one.

Ordinarily a thread about pocket watches wouldn't hold my attention but on Christmas Day my father handed me a box with a leather pouch in it. The pouch contained a pocket watch his great-grandfather owned. After reading through this excellent thread, I searched online and determined it's a Waltham 1857, P.S. Bartlett model, manufactured in Aug-Sept 1871. It's not a railroad watch, nor as beautiful as the ones shown above, but I will certainly attempt to get it fixed for the sentimental value alone.

I did find an excellent serial number database for Waltham company watches at http://www.nawcc-info.org/.

I LOVE Waltham model 1857s-in fact, I'd go so far as to say that they have been my main collecting focus for the past year.

The 1857 was the "Model T" of watches. It was the first mass-produced, interchangeable watch that was affordable to the average man. The multiple varieties and long production life(roughly 1855 on into the 1880s) make it fascinating to study.

I'd love to see a photo of yours if you don't mind sharing.

Since someone else brought up 1857 model Walthams, here's my small collection of them. These cover the years 1863(upper left, SN 95,xxx) to 1874(lower right, SN 771xxx).




And, keeping with the theme of the topic, here's a RR grade 1857, an Appleton, Tracy and Company grade movement(in a nice AWCo Sterling case). All AT&Co grade 1857s were 15 jewels, and were considered the highest grade of the standard production 1857 line. This one is still a great timekeeper today. I don't carry 1857s much, but this one has spent some time in my pocket

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:

The 1857 was the "Model T" of watches. It was the first mass-produced, interchangeable watch that was affordable to the average man. The multiple varieties and long production life(roughly 1855 on into the 1880s) make it fascinating to study.

I'd love to see a photo of yours if you don't mind sharing.

Ben,
Here's my 1857 with its nice "patina":

Really nice looking watch in a nice(3 oz?) silver case. As I said, that's the main thing I collect.

Do yourself a favor and keep that nice patina. Back when I started collecting these, I polished several nice silver cases and regret it now.

Thanks again for showing it.

Here's another one I picked up yesterday.

This is an Elgin Grade 571 B.W. Raymond. The 571 was introduced after WWII, and was Elgin's final railroad grade introduced. Throughout the 1950s, the 571 competed directly with the 992B and Waltham Vanguard-all of which were priced just around $71. Many of the same improvements present in the 992B were also present in the 571. Namely, the watch uses a monometallic solid balance and white alloy hairspring, similar to Hamilton's Elinvar Extra hairspring and Invar balance. Also, the mainspring is "unbreakable" white alloy and the jewels are set with friction.

This watch has a Montgomery dial and is fitted with dual time zone hour hands. I don't think these are original, but I think this looks interesting on the watch.





As a forewarning to any prospective purchasers, the stem detent and set lever are known problems on this watch. I would not want to buy a 571 without buying it in person and confirming for myself that everything worked correctly.

I cleaned and oiled this one today, and so far it's running great.

I attended the NAWCC Ch. 140 regional meeting in Lexington, KY on Friday. There were a lot of watches available, most out of my price range, but I did bring home a couple of nice pieces.

The first is similar to one I've posted here before, a Hamilton 990. As can be seen, the finish on the 990 is quite a bit nicer than on the 992. They are also a good bit less common-there were well over 400,000 992s made, and 16,000 990s in comparison.



The other was an Elgin grade 240, an 18 size, 3/4 plate watch signed "B.W. Raymond" These are 19 jewel watches, with a jeweled mainspring barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by ddurling:

quote:

Originally posted by ben10ben:

The 1857 was the "Model T" of watches. It was the first mass-produced, interchangeable watch that was affordable to the average man. The multiple varieties and long production life(roughly 1855 on into the 1880s) make it fascinating to study.

I'd love to see a photo of yours if you don't mind sharing.

Ben,
Here's my 1857 with its nice "patina":

UPDATE: Well, a bit of bad news. I dropped this watch off at a local shop to be repaired around the first week in January. The guy said it'd be $125 - $150 to clean it and get it running. Take two weeks, he said. I thought the price was fair. Here it is the end of January and I thought I'd check in and see what progress was being made. Turns out the phone in the shop is not in service, there are sticky notes all over the door from customers asking him to contact them, and even the guy's home number is disconnected.
I hope there's a happy ending to this story, but I'm beginning to wonder!

That's really unfortunate that this happened to you.

If you would email me the name of the watchmaker, I can check with some NAWCC and AWCI contacts and see if anyone knows anything more about what's going on. My email address is ben10ben2@yahoo.com.

I really hope you can get it resolved.

Thanks for the concern. Turns out I was totally wrong about the shop! With a bit of sleuthing, I found out the owner had to undergo a medical procedure and was out for a bit. His answering machine filled up and stopped working properly. He'll be back to work soon and will give me an update on the watch. It would've been helpful to post a notice at the shop, but perhaps there was a medical emergency and he didn't have time.

Glad to hear that you got to the bottom of it even if the circumstances were unfortunate.

Hope you get everything resolved in the next few weeks, as I would have hated for you to lose a family heirloom.

Waltham model 1892 Vanguard with 23 jewels

Hi: I have a Hamilton R.R. watch that needs the ratchet spring replaced and tuned up. Can anybody recomend a good repair place. thanks trainrector

Dumb question time......What does it mean when they say a watch has a certain number of jewels?

The jewels were just that--small pieces of polished ruby. The jewels served as nearly frictionless surfaces for gear pivot points to rotate on. The more jewels--the thinking went--the better the watch quality.

Steve is absolutely correct in the meaning and use of jewels in a watch.

I'll add one other point, however. In a non-jeweled pivot, one has a a hard steel pivot turning against a soft brass bearing. The result of this is that, over time, the brass is worn to larger than its normal size, and often to an oval shape. This affects the timekeeping of the watch, and if too bad, can even cause the watch to stop.

By contrast, a hard jewels is subject to little wear in normal operation. Thus, a watch will hold its adjustment better and overall be a better runner with more pivots jeweled.

As an extension of this, corrundum(ruby and sapphire) can wear under certain conditions, especially if a pivot is polished using an abrasive. The pivot acts like a drill on ruby or sapphire endstones, and can result in a small pit in them after years of operation.

For that reason, some high grade watches(including the 23J Waltham Vanguard on this page, and the 21J Elgin Father Time pictured earlier in this thread) use diamond cap jewels on the balance pivots. Whether these provide any real-world benefit is questionable, but they certainly are a sign of a high grade watch.

Thanks for the additional insight, Ben! It's hard for me to imagine that parts so light can wear the jewels.

Could they use small pieces of glass in place of jewels? Or are the jewels harder than the glass? (Or does it just sopund better to say you have a 23 jewel watch as opposed to a "23 glass watch?"

This is an absolutely fascinating thread.



Unfortunately the only pocket watches I have run on batteries. It's not the same.

Rich,

I think it's time to fix that

In all seriousness, prices on common railroads have taken a hit in the past couple of years.

The most expensive watch I've personally shown in this thread has been the 23 jewel Vanguard shown earlier on this page, for which I paid $350. Many of the watches in my collection have been in the $150-250 range.

I realize this is by no means cheap, but when you consider that many folks on here think nothing of spending 4-5 times that for a die cast steam locomotive, it does not look so expensive in comparison.

Ben,
The National Railway Bulletin Vol.41 Num. 1, 1976 has an article "Railroad Watches and Time Service" by Larry treiman. do you have a copy of it?

Can you tell me anything about what the Vanguard means in Waltham watches?

Jim,

Unfortunately, no I don't have a copy of the article. Larry Treiman, however, is an acquaintance of mine and I can probably put you in touch with him if you're interested.

I'm not sure where the name "Vanguard" came from. As far as I know, there's no direct or obvious explanation for it. This is contrary to many other Waltham grades, where the name is immediately obvious when studying the history of the company. For example, the Crescent Street, one of the more popular railroad grade watches, was so named because the Waltham factory was located on Crescent Street in Waltham, MA. The Riverside grade, another popular one, was so named because the factory was located on the banks of the Charles river.

The Vanguard was Waltham's best grade of watch intended for Railroad service(although for the vast majority of its production was not the best grade available) from the 1890s up until the end of production.

Ben,
Thanks for the info.
I have already have a copy of the article. It's been a long time since I have read it, but the best that I remember it was a pretty good story.