Refresher - Legacy vs TMCC

One difference is the speed steps. With TMCC you have 32 speed steps and with Legacy you have 200 speed steps. Also with one of the updates on the cab2 you can use R100 for control and have 100 speed steps. You also have the brake slider on the cab2.

@trainbob posted:

Also with one of the updates on the cab2 you can use R100 for control and have 100 speed steps. You also have the brake slider on the cab2.

Note that R100 is only useful for locomotives with the ability to use 100 speed steps.  ERR back-EMF cruise, K-Line cruise, or TAS EOB all benefit from R100.  TMCC still only has 32 speed steps no matter how you address it.

I bought my Legacy R-27 subway set with TMCC controls to save some money, but I was able to get improved functionality when I upgraded to Legacy with respect to speed control (more steps), graphical output of the speed and context-dependent control buttons on the Legacy remote (no display on the TMCC and no context on the buttons) and the ability to select specific station announcements with Legacy (as opposed to having to cycle through the station announcements in order with TMCC).

I have several Legacy locomotives; they seem to run fine on my TMCC layout.  LOL

Thanks for pointing that out John I didn’t know that

@HiramO posted:

I have several Legacy locomotives; they seem to run fine on my TMCC layout.  LOL

No problem at all running Legacy locomotives with TMCC, they just run like TMCC locomotives.

One point of confusion... The only controller available with first-generation TMCC was the CAB-1, which transmitted 32 RELATIVE speed steps.  When Legacy was introduced, at the same time we got the CAB-2 (R.I.P.) A lot of folks remarked how much better their TMCC / Odyssey locos ran using the CAB-2 and 990 base.

The best of the best is a Legacy loco with 990 base and CAB-2.  But the controller and base may have an impact on the operating experience as does the on-board circuitry.  Somewhere, a long time ago, I thought I read that TMCC does use 256 internal speed steps for purposes of momentum, stall voltage, etc.  But they were never directly accessible with the original CAB-1.

Hopefully someone who really knows this stuff will correct me or clarify what I wrote.

@Ted S posted:

One point of confusion... The only controller available with first-generation TMCC was the CAB-1, which transmitted 32 RELATIVE speed steps.  When Legacy was introduced, at the same time we got the CAB-2 (R.I.P.) A lot of folks remarked how much better their TMCC / Odyssey locos ran using the CAB-2 and 990 base.

The best of the best is a Legacy loco with 990 base and CAB-2.  But the controller and base may have an impact on the operating experience as does the on-board circuitry.  Somewhere, a long time ago, I thought I read that TMCC does use 256 internal speed steps for purposes of momentum, stall voltage, etc.  But they were never directly accessible with the original CAB-1.

Hopefully someone who really knows this stuff will correct me or clarify what I wrote.

@SantaFeFan would probably be as good as it gets.

One thing I've always wondered...

The ERR boards offer the ability to switch between 32 and 100 speed steps. Since the CAB-1 uses relative speed commands (just + or -) you'll notice that the locomotive requires more throttle movement to get up to an equivalent speed. Makes sense.

Now, on the CAB-2 There are two "relative addressing" modes and two "absolute addressing" modes.

• CAB1 mode sends relative + and - commands
• TMCC mode sends absolute commands 1 to 32 (the remote "remembers" the last issued speed step and a click of the throttle knob increments the speed step and sends a command e.g. "locomotive 3 go to speed step 10"
• REL 100 mode sends relative + and - commands
• Legacy mode sends absolute commands 1 to 200 (but only Legacy locomotives understand these 9-bit commands)

This begs the question... When controlling a locomotive with ERR set to 100 speed steps, what is the difference between CAB1 mode and REL 100 mode?

The speed step limitation in TMCC is at the engine’s motor driver not because of the CAB-1. The CAB-1 sends infinite relative speed step commands from the velocity pot. You got +/-1 step when rolling the pot slowly, up to +/-5 steps when rolling it quickly. The Lionel motor drivers of the day had 32 speed destinations arranged in a curve from zero speed to max based off motor speed. This curve was modded over the years along with adding cruise enable/disable. Operators who wanted more speed control gravitated toward EOB and ERR products (aftermarket or OEM) which offered more speed steps (up to 128 for EOB and up to 100 for ERR).

Absolute speed step control was never really implemented by TMCC. The commands were always coded in but there was never any hardware that could issue them. Way back in the early 2000s there was some home brewed software that could issue them from a serial connection.

Recently I have been running a little at a friend's large layout who has both TMCC & DCS and uses the MTH handheld to operate both systems. He said he feels he has much better control with the MTH unit than with the Cab1. I've only tried it once this last time bringing my MTH handheld and was surprised that all the buttons actually performed their proper functions on my several TMCC and Legacy locomotives.  I didn't particularly make any 'comparison tests' of any type but it was an enjoyable experience!

My original question was more about overall feel or control features or advantages of using Legacy over TMCC. It seems everyone always goes "Ooohh" and "Ahh" - it's Legacy!  I've never been 'disappointed' at all with TMCC and also admire MTH's system, especially considering the multitude of features (TMCC was downright primitive) DCS offered when first introduced 20+ years ago. It was light years ahead. The ability to change the number of chuffs per revolution was a huge advantage that Lionel still doesn't offer today that I'm aware of. Think of the hundreds if not thousands of older steam locomotives with only 2 chuffs that we've had to 'modify' to make them listenable - I still have a Commodore Vanderbilt Hudson with only ONE chuff!

Personally, I find exactly the opposite, and my special objection is the lousy MTH thumbwheel!  The big red knob is lightyears better than that silly thumbwheel!

The TMCC locos use 32 speed steps internally, not 256.  The internal registers count from 0 to 31, which can be changed in a relative or absolute manner.

Happy Holidays!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

The speed step limitation in TMCC is at the engine’s motor driver not because of the CAB-1. The CAB-1 sends infinite relative speed step commands from the velocity pot. You got +/-1 step when rolling the pot slowly, up to +/-5 steps when rolling it quickly. The Lionel motor drivers of the day had 32 speed destinations arranged in a curve from zero speed to max based off motor speed. This curve was modded over the years along with adding cruise enable/disable. Operators who wanted more speed control gravitated toward EOB and ERR products (aftermarket or OEM) which offered more speed steps (up to 128 for EOB and up to 100 for ERR).

Absolute speed step control was never really implemented by TMCC. The commands were always coded in but there was never any hardware that could issue them. Way back in the early 2000s there was some home brewed software that could issue them from a serial connection.

This still begs the question... What's the difference between Cab-1 mode and REL 100 mode on the Cab-2?

I would have to agree with you Gunrunner about the red knob vs the wheel. :-)

Guess I'm curious about the 'advantages' Legacy has over TMCC other than the bell & quilling whistle. Must be something significant as several of you are now performing Legacy upgrades at considerable $$ expense compared to installing ERR which also has a good following. I never really noticed that much difference in the speed control that you guys are talking about here.

Good to hear from you Jon, thanks for chiming in sir!

@rplst8 posted:

This still begs the question... What's the difference between Cab-1 mode and REL 100 mode on the Cab-2?

The significant difference between CAB1 mode and R100 mode is simply the presentation of the icons on the keypad of the CAB2.  Both output the same commands to the locomotive, that being relative step commands.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Absolute speed step control was never really implemented by TMCC. The commands were always coded in but there was never any hardware that could issue them. Way back in the early 2000s there was some home brewed software that could issue them from a serial connection.

Actually, that's not really true, the Legacy command system can issue absolute TMCC command steps.  I agree that prior to the release of the Legacy system there wasn't a standard way to issue such commands.  However, as you correctly point out, they can be issued using the serial data link.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Absolute speed step control was never really implemented by TMCC. The commands were always coded in but there was never any hardware that could issue them. Way back in the early 2000s there was some home brewed software that could issue them from a serial connection.

Haha I spent wasted $250 on that software

John I agree 100% on the DCS thumbwheel.  Even if we ignore the lack of durability, the ergonomics are terrible!   I still have a first-generation remote--made before MTH added deeper ridges--so the thumbwheel is especially slippery.  My friends and I in the local club discovered that it's easier to scroll the wheel without accidentally pushing it in, by wearing a ribbed rubber thumb cot such as might be used for counting money!  Always use protection!! 

Sam it's hard to describe.  But the tactile detents of the CAB-2 knob and the graph showing target and actual speed just feels so much more precise and positive.  By comparison, the only word I can think of to characterize my experience with the original TMCC is "vague."  So often, I felt as though I was turning the red knob and nothing was happening.  I'm convinced that in some cases, commands were being "missed."  I think Lionel should have built a troubleshooting mode into the original system.  For example, there could have been two audible cues: a "beep" emitted by the command base, and an air blast emitted by the loco a half-second later, to acknowledge a change in speed step.

I think the CAB-2 was a great choice when it was readily available, and I hope to get many more years out of mine.  However, if you're satisfied with the degree of control you're getting with 1st-gen TMCC, then it's probably not worth paying the jacked-up aftermarket prices they command now.  A sad situation, for sure.

The software I had at one time was made by Jim Hawk who used to post on here. It was called Railman. It was cool because it had a port sniffer function that showed the commands being issued. You could also input the binary command strings shown in the old TMCC manual.

In regards to absolute vs. relative speed commands, think of absolute as 'set' and relative as 'change'. Like I said the CAB-1 issued the speed steps from the velocity pot (big red knob) in various size chunks depending on how quick one would move it. Boost and brake were different commands from what I remember (with auto return to current speed).

Speed steps and chuff rates were not TMCC limitations really.

In regards to Legacy and the CAB-2, they had a bit of a clean slate to start with so not only did they increase the amount of speed steps, they flattened the curve a bit, and most importantly did the work to make sure all their engines going forward were speed matched for differences in gear ratios and driver size.

When running TMCC engines with the CAB-2 I run them programmed as 'CAB1' mode for the most reliable response. I don't like R100. The CAB-2 TMCC mode sends a mix of relative and absolute (in the RR Speeds) step commands. Lionel OEM drivers will respond to absolute speeds but ERR won't and EOB sort of does depending on what mode the cruise is in.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

When running TMCC engines with the CAB-2 I run them programmed as 'CAB1' mode for the most reliable response. I don't like R100. The CAB-2 TMCC mode sends a mix of relative and absolute (in the RR Speeds) step commands. Lionel OEM drivers will respond to absolute speeds but ERR won't and EOB sort of does depending on what mode the cruise is in.

When running TMCC engines I normally grab the CAB1L, it's a bit handier than the CAB2.  It's also a lot more robust in case it gets dropped.

Good info gents.   Sort of along the same control questions but a little different....   Having a traditional control layout run with a new ZWL transformer, I'm stuck at the controls when I run post-war Lionel trains.   When I run one of the new Lionel engines I have, I use the orange remotes and have been more than satisfied.   I would like to have remote to control the postwar stuff too.   I was understanding this generally only works if I get a TIU with the MTH remote, which I have been planning to buy it.   Expensive, I know.   But my understanding is I cannot do it with Legacy since I originally was going to buy the 990 and cab2 remote.   With that said, am I correct that the only way to control post-war (non-remote) trains with a remote is to use the MTH TIU/remote setup due to the way it works with various output vs Legacy fixed output?   And, having never used either, I"m MIFFED that I have now read above that the click wheel stinks compared to the Lionel red turn knob.   Jeez, more issues than solutions!!!  

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

The software I had at one time was made by Jim Hawk who used to post on here. It was called Railman. It was cool because it had a port sniffer function that showed the commands being issued. You could also input the binary command strings shown in the old TMCC manual.

In regards to absolute vs. relative speed commands, think of absolute as 'set' and relative as 'change'. Like I said the CAB-1 issued the speed steps from the velocity pot (big red knob) in various size chunks depending on how quick one would move it. Boost and brake were different commands from what I remember (with auto return to current speed).

The boost and brake commands are different indeed. In fact, when operating in 128 speed step mode, the EOB electronics required that you use the boost and brake to access the additional steps. The reason, is that the R2LC's of the time (not sure of the code revision, but this might be why ERR recommends a minimum R2LC version of C08) cease sending out speed step commands over serial once they step 32.  So TAS coded those motor controller boards to respond to brake and boost in that mode.

Lionel OEM drivers will respond to absolute speeds but ERR won't and EOB sort of does depending on what mode the cruise is in.

My ERR equipped locomotives respond perfectly, step-by-step while running in a consist in CAB-2 TMCC mode. In fact it's pretty much the only way they stay synced.

@42trainman posted:

Good info gents.   Sort of along the same control questions but a little different....   Having a traditional control layout run with a new ZWL transformer, I'm stuck at the controls when I run post-war Lionel trains.   When I run one of the new Lionel engines I have, I use the orange remotes and have been more than satisfied.   I would like to have remote to control the postwar stuff too.   I was understanding this generally only works if I get a TIU with the MTH remote, which I have been planning to buy it.   Expensive, I know.   But my understanding is I cannot do it with Legacy since I originally was going to buy the 990 and cab2 remote.   With that said, am I correct that the only way to control post-war (non-remote) trains with a remote is to use the MTH TIU/remote setup due to the way it works with various output vs Legacy fixed output?   And, having never used either, I"m MIFFED that I have now read above that the click wheel stinks compared to the Lionel red turn knob.   Jeez, more issues than solutions!!!  

You could also get some used TMCC PowerMasters and a CAB-1 Remote to control conventional locomotives. I think they still make the Legacy PowerMaster, but I think those will require the Base3 (or finding a Base-1L and/or 990 set).

EOB 128 step mode responds all the way up and down with relative commands from the CAB-1 throttle knob. The boost/brake in 128 step simply indexes through the steps one at a time. I keep EOB engines programmed in the CAB-2 as 'CAB1'.

@42trainman posted:

Having a traditional control layout run with a new ZWL transformer, I'm stuck at the controls when I run post-war Lionel trains.   When I run one of the new Lionel engines I have, I use the orange remotes and have been more than satisfied.   I would like to have remote to control the postwar stuff too.   I was understanding this generally only works if I get a TIU with the MTH remote, which I have been planning to buy it.   Expensive, I know.   But my understanding is I cannot do it with Legacy since I originally was going to buy the 990 and cab2 remote.   With that said, am I correct that the only way to control post-war (non-remote) trains with a remote is to use the MTH TIU/remote setup due to the way it works with various output vs Legacy fixed output?   And, having never used either, I"m MIFFED that I have now read above that the click wheel stinks compared to the Lionel red turn knob.   Jeez, more issues than solutions!!!  

You're missing an important point.  It isn't only MTH that's had control of traditional trains via handheld remote.  From day one Lionel's command control (TMCC and Legacy) has had a way to control traditional postwar trains too.  @rplst8 is right on track with his comments about using PowerMasters.

Before you go buying anything here are some things you need to know:

1. PowerMasters are devices that respond to the red knob on the Lionel handheld (Cab1, Cab1L or Cab2) and adjust the voltage going to track in order to act like a old-fashioned transformer, but controlled instead by the walk-around remote.
2. This functionality is already built into your ZW-L.  It too can adjust track voltage from a remote (Cab1, Cab1L or Cab2 along with an appropriate Base).  Check your ZW-L instruction manual for details.
3. To get your remote and red knob if you want brand new you can buy a CAB-1L and the upcoming Base-3, which is not in production yet.
4. If used is OK (and being pricey's not a problem) Cab-1/Base-1 is presently the best bargain, as @rplst8 has also mentioned.
5. If used is OK (and money's no object) then Cab-2/Base-2. i.e. the 990 Command Set, is a possibility, although presently hard to find and quite expensive,

Mike

@42trainman posted:

I"m MIFFED that I have now read above that the click wheel stinks compared to the Lionel red turn knob.   Jeez, more issues than solutions!!!  

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that is 100% correct.  Of all the things that MTH did right, the thumbwheel is one they did all wrong!  Now, it could have been quite good, but they went cheap and used physical contacts in the encoder.  In addition, I was told by someone that should know, that some of the issues with the thumbwheel is simply the software can't keep up with rapid movements.  Many times I'll try scrolling, and if I don't go very slow, the speed actually steps in reverse of what I am commanding!   Add to that the thumbwheel assembly is pretty fragile and is one of the primary pieces that is regularly broken, and you see where we end up.

@Ted S posted:

Haha I spent wasted $250 on that software

Sam it's hard to describe.  But the tactile detents of the CAB-2 knob and the graph showing target and actual speed just feels so much more precise and positive.  By comparison, the only word I can think of to characterize my experience with the original TMCC is "vague."  So often, I felt as though I was turning the red knob and nothing was happening.  I'm convinced that in some cases, commands were being "missed."  I think Lionel should have built a troubleshooting mode into the original system.  For example, there could have been two audible cues: a "beep" emitted by the command base, and an air blast emitted by the loco a half-second later, to acknowledge a change in speed step.

I think the CAB-2 was a great choice when it was readily available, and I hope to get many more years out of mine.  However, if you're satisfied with the degree of control you're getting with 1st-gen TMCC, then it's probably not worth paying the jacked-up aftermarket prices they command now.  A sad situation, for sure.

Thanks for the input Ted. I had a Legacy set purchased about 12 yrs ago now but sold it this year due to not having a home layout since 2013. No one at our club runs Legacy or MTH, instead almost exclusively using Lionchief which I have none. For several years I would take my Legacy set back and forth to run my own pieces but the layout is used primarily for the nice tourist business of the family who own it at the Bison ranch. (Buffalo Creek Vacations) It is a fanciful display with a UFO lifting a cow, Mel's Diner, and a real hodge-podge of plasticville and commercial buildings and accessories with mostly recent traditional Lionel engines and fanciful rolling stock. We have to remove these trains if we want to operate our own equipment and most nights we are 'working on' the layout as opposed to running our trains.

I belong to a good HO/Large Scale club about an hour away and have enjoyed using my phone to run on their large layouts so decided to let go my rarely used 990 set before it becomes obsolete at some point! When all this 'control confusion' and future unknown release dates eventually settles down and up to date wifi and hand-held equipment becomes available again at reasonable prices I will likely purchase the equipment to again run my trains at our club layout.

Meanwhile I have two good friends who have both MTH and Legacy operational on their layouts and I have a MTH handheld (and TIU) that seems to operate my Lionel locomotives just fine!

Have enjoyed reading your many informational comments, thanks fellas. What I have surmised from them is that the primary difference between TMCC & Legacy is in the speed steps plus the single hit bell and quillable whistles?  Is Legacy 'superior' to TMCC in any other significant aspect?

My original inquiry was due to the 'demand' by many you to upgrade your locomotives to aftermarket Legacy installations by Bruk, John, and Sid among others. Is it really worth the expense?

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

EOB 128 step mode responds all the way up and down with relative commands from the CAB-1 throttle knob. The boost/brake in 128 step simply indexes through the steps one at a time. I keep EOB engines programmed in the CAB-2 as 'CAB1'.

I wonder if this was just a limitation of early revisions of the R2LC?

Never seen that before - my EOBs are all set for 128 step and they respond all the way to full speed with the CAB-1 or the CAB-2 in CAB1 mode. I will typically use boost to start them at the first step if I want to run at the first step.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Never seen that before - my EOBs are all set for 128 step and they respond all the way to full speed with the CAB-1 or the CAB-2 in CAB1 mode. I will typically use boost to start them at the first step if I want to run at the first step.

Yeah the EOB drop in board's instruction manual claims that if you use the big red knob it will jump two steps at a time.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've run EOB stuff with the big red knob and gotten full speed out of them.  The R2LC was the C08 version.  They may have been skipping every other step, I couldn't say.  I normally am just doing it for testing, I don't actually have any EOB equipped stuff left in my stable, but it comes in for repairs/upgrades.