SCARM help - GarGraves track/Ross Switch

Dave,

Here is the O-42 reverse loop using a RCS O-42 switch and GG O-42 curves.  It was done in RRTrack and uses the O-42 extension curve for the switch to make it a full 45 degrees.  It should work in SCARM.

Ron

I don't think SCARM includes the makeup curves, not that I can see anyway. But then I don't see one on the Ross website either. The switch might come with it, but the pdf for the switch doesn't show it either.

By your picture all you have to do is move track closer or put in filler pieces.

You can't do solely with sectional track. You need to cut a custom curve. I don't know if SCARM can do this since I'm not familiar with the tool. You can do this in RRTrack.

The Ross 042 sectional curve is 45 degrees and the 042 switch is 32 degrees. So you would need to cut a 042 section making the arc 13 degrees. This completes the full 90 degree turn required.

You could create it with a flex track in SCARM. Curve and length.

@CAPPilot-if there are extension curves included with the switches, would you email Milen (Mixey) the author of SCARM so that he can add those to the library?

Here's my 042 return loop (in Scarm) which also where there is a transition from one loop to a yard-lead. Upshot is you need to use some Flex-Track. It couldn't be done otherwise.

Moonman,

I do not use O-42 curves/switches.  I had RR-Track open working on my layout when I read Dave's post, so I used RR-Track to do the O-42 reversing loop above.  The program has a track section in the RCS library called "O-42 makeup curve 13 degrees".  I don't know if RCS makes this piece of track, but it would be easy to make by cutting an O-42 curve section.

Ron

As I mentioned earlier, there seems to be discrepancies between SCARM and RR-Track. RRT includes a "makeup" section for the O42 turnout in its Ross track library that SCARM doesn't. This makeup section allows the O42 loop to be configured in RRT, but not in SCARM. Unfortunately, I can't find this makeup piece of track listed on the RCS website.

In looking further, there seem to be more discrepancies, mostly in SCARM, with the GarGraves track library. There are pieces listed on the GarGraves website for a number of switches for both makeup and parallel configurations that are not in the SCARM library, but are in the RRT library. However, the GarGraves website lists them for only O54 and O72 switches whereas RRT lists them for the O42 switch too. SCARM doesn't list any of these sections that I can find.

When I was buying N and HO track years ago, I seem to remember that some switches included the makeup section. However, since they are listed separately on the GarGraves website, I assume they are purchased separately and should be listed separately in the SCARM and RRT libraries. I'm also now left wondering what other discrepancies there are in other track libraries. Many of us take our time trying to make our track configurations "connect" with standard pieces to avoid cutting custom pieces and we rely on these design programs being accurate, at least within track tolerances for minor adjustments.

I intend to use a lot of custom length flex track and I don't use loops like this because of the "S curve and because they just don't look good. I'm also not using an O42 switch, so I don't expect to have any problems going from design to actual track. I guess my point is that before you get too far in your design efforts using any program, double check that the program you're using includes the correct track pieces.

Nick, I think it's just a desire to have things match up using standard pieces. I've always been under the impression that one could make a reversing loop (albeit not a very good one) using standard pieces, but I no longer think that's true. I can do it with Atlas (O36, O54, O72) and Ross (O54, O72), but not GarGraves or Ross/GarGraves (O54, O72), at least not without using a combination of Ross 3" straights along with other GarGraves straights. Even CAPPilot used a Ross straight rather than GarGraves.

Admittedly, one can argue that using the Ross straights with a Ross switch is okay. However, the Ross library in SCARM does not include the 3" straight shown on the Ross website just as it doesn't include other pieces that RR-Track does. That's not meant to say RR-Track is correct and SCARM isn't, but there's no denying the missing 3" straight shown in the parts list and that makes me question other oversights.

This exercise also makes me wonder if using a combination of Ross switches with other brand tracks requires cutting custom length pieces to make things fit. I guess that's the nature of the beast when mixing brands of track, so I shouldn't be surprised. I'm just not sure Dave and others are thinking about cutting when someone suggests using Ross/GarGraves. I know I didn't think that would be a requirement.

It seems to me that "fitters" have always been needed. The old Lionel books indicated areas where a cut track was needed in layout plans.

Someone experienced with various manufacturers track could share that information with Milen (Mixy), the author of SCARM. It is in the beta or development stage. That would greatly improve the utility of this free software.

Up to now, I've never had to cut anything other than flextrack in N or HO. So far none of my O designs require any cutting either. This is the first instance I haven't been able to make something fit using standard pieces. I'm just surprised that so many recommend using Ross/GarGraves without mentioning that it will almost certainly requires some custom pieces. I don't have a problem with cutting, but I'm sure for someone used to FasTrack, cutting might affect a decision to try something else.

When it comes to SCARM, I guess I just assume Mixy reads these threads. Even though I don't really use SCARM, I could send him a note of the discrepancies I've found. I guess I was hoping someone would confirm my suspicions before I did that.

Hello Dave,

I saw your note on FB, thank you

Please, tell me, which are the part numbers for the missing tracks in SCARM and I will search for them as I am not familiar with GarGraves nor RCS.

Mixy

Mixy,

All of the transitional pieces and "short" curves can be found at the bottom of the page at this address: http://www.gargraves.com/sectional2.html#o

Some of the specifications and uses for those pieces can be found in the attached pdf file.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

The Ross pieces are:

RCS 010 (3" straight)

RCS 015 (10" straight)

These can be found in the Parts List on the Ross website.

The GarGraves pieces are:

XMU-101-42 (makeup curve)

GG C42T (transition curve)

XMU-101-54 (makeup curve)

GG TR153/4 (parallel curve)

XMU-101-72 (45 makeup curve)

XMU-101-72-2 (30 makeup curve)

GG TR143/4 (parallel curve)

XMU-101-72WYE (45 makeup curve)

XMU-101-72WYE2 (30 makeup curve)

GG TR141 (parallel curve)

The O42 pieces are in RR-Track, but initially I couldn't find them on the GarGraves website in their parts list. However, looking deeper, I finally found a TR133/4 instead of the C42T, so I assume RR-Track simply has an older part number. I still don't see the XMU-101-42, but I assume that is an error on the GarGraves site since they have the others listed. Either way, none of these are in SCARM and I don't know what is accurate when it comes to the O42 makeup curve. I don't have time to do a complete comparison, so there might be others that I haven't found yet.

While I'm on the subject, it's more complicated than that though. They both differentiate between wooden and plastic ties for straights and curves, but not for turnouts and I assume that means all turnouts are plastic, something I've never considered.

GarGraves further complicates things by making several pieces of everything because they offer wooden ties, plastic ties, tinplated rails and stainless rails. Looking at their parts list HERE (scroll down to TR-101), it appears that they don't always offer a choice of plastic and wood ties. For example, they list 4 pieces for the O42 parallel transition w/plastic ties, but nothing for wood ties. The opposite is true for the O54 transition and the lists for O72 and O72Wyes are similarly confusing. If I'm reading this right, it appears that if I want all plastic, I can't use the O54 pieces.

It also appears that I cannot get an accurate component list "directly" from RR-Track. I have to know how to change the item number for stainless because all numbers appear to be for tinplated rail. That's nit a big deal, but it is a little more complicated than SCARM where I make that choice when I select the library. Of course, it's more work for you in SCARM because you have to maintain separate libraries and there are no "real" differences between the 2 other than type of rail used. That does bring up the question now of which is better, tinplated or stainless?

Chuck, thanks for the link to the pdf. Where did you find the link though? I've never seen it before, but it answers the question about the missing O42 makeup curve. As I suspected, it's included with the turnout. It still needs to be listed separately in SCARM though, or the turnout specs need to be changed to include its dimensions, so pieces fit together properly.

Thank you, guys

This will open some work... but I will try to update both libs for the next release of SCARM

Mixy

DoubleDAZ,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I was just looking for some SCARM info today when I noticed your question about the PDF file.  I know I downloaded it in August, 2013, but I'm sorry, I don't recall the source.  However, I do believe it was somewhere on the GarGraves website.

Whenever I find potentially useful info, I download it because nobody knows how long it will remain on the net.  Your question reminds me that I need to be better about recording the "source" in case future questions arise.

Chuck

No problem, Chuck. Thanks for checking.

Hey..."geometry" will be an issue forever.  Here is the solution.  Buy a dremel tool, eye protection and a 2" diameter cut-off wheel.  It's time to learn to fit the track exactly as real railroads do in real life.  And dremel tools have thousands of uses; not just model railroads!  Better to get cutting now because that is a big part of all track plans and cutting track is incredibly easy with a dremel!    geometry problem solved! 

Hi,

I just stumbled upon your post and can help you create the missing piece of track in Scarm until Mixy comes up with a permanent solution.

Go to the Tools menu and select the Toolbox. In the Toolbox window, select Flex-tracks modeling. Select the open point of the turnout, then select the Gargraves Flex/Wood track section. Input the numbers, then select the +Curve button. Finish by selecting Fix.

OK, I am now in process of updating all track libraries as the new version of SCARM is ready (but not yet published). So I am checking and re-checking all manufacturers websites. It seems that there are many new items and tracks and I will try to add most (hope all) of them for the new release.

At the moment I am dealing with O gauge, starting with RCS. There is a new line of switches - "RossPlate Traditional Line" and I am wondering are they the same (as geometry) like the standard tracks... Next in the list is GarGraves.

Mixy

OK, I need a little more help here.

What should be the total angle with XMU-101-42 and XMU-101-54 makeup curve pieces attached?

Also, what are the dimensions of the transition and back-to-parallel curves?

I am searching of some pictures with curves attached to the turnouts, but nothing found.

Mixy

Mixy,

If you look at the GarGraves website, www.gargraves.com ,  and look for Switch Specs under Diagrams, Instructions and Videos, you will find a PDF file with GarGraves switch specifications.  The notes also suggest how to determine the specs for some of the make-up curves.  For the O-42 makeup curve to attach to an O-42 switch, the length is whatever is necessary to equal a full O-42 curve track which I believe to be a 15 degree section.  Since they give you the inside rail length for the switch (the curved portion) of 9.726", you will have to compare that to the full inside rail length of an O-42 curve to find the difference.  The difference will be the inside rail length of the make-up curve.  There is also another PDF file called Curve Track Specifications which might also help you solve this problem.

Hopefully, somebody with math skills beyond my own will see this and use some geometry formulae to help you develop all the specs for that piece.

Chuck

Thank you, Chuck - I found it

The O42 and O72 are well described. However, there is no info about O54 and Wye makeup and transition curves. Also, the standard O72 curves with plastic and wooden ties are with different angles - 30 and 45 degree. I am wondering, are the makeups also different? The O42 are 45 degree, both plastic and wooden.

Mixy