SER2 DB-9 issues/Legacy System Utility

The cover is upside down...maybe all the bits fell out

I would look inside...

...and I see no reason for a swap of I/O lines. The SER2 DB9 connector is supposed to look just like the one on the back of your base, electrically and physically.

So you plugged the pc back into the base directly and the LCS utility worked as it did before?

I am glad to see you were able to get one. I pre-ordered everything but the SER2 was not listed and I requested to order one. Now I cannot find one in stock? Very frustrating. Where did you get yours from?

Did you get the WiFi unit? Have you tried the LCS utility using the WifI unit? I am under the impression that you can access the base using the Wifi and LCS Utility.

I pre-ordered them back in February from Nassau Hobby - per a post today from Charlie Nassau on the Hi-Rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge forum, they should be getting them back in stock soon.

I got the WiFi unit, and was able to use the iPad LCS software in Access Point mode - still haven't had success with joining to my home network. But you can't back up the base with the iPad software; in fact, its help file recommended using the Legacy System Utility to back up the base programming before making changes using the iPad software, which is how I discovered this problem . 

Well, since my OTC works properly connected to the SER2 via screw terminals, I thought I'd try connecting it instead to the SER2's DB-9 via a 6-14195 Command Base cable. Disconnected the screw terminal wiring, connected up the Command Base cable - the OTC still works fine, so at least those two SER2 DB-9 pins are operating properly. 

Seems to me this shows that something's changed in the way the DB-9 cable between the PC's serial port and the SER2 needs to be wired (or possibly another pin different from the two used for the OTC has died). I have a barrier strip connected to DB-9 male and female connectors, so I guess I'll be spending tomorrow swapping out RS-232 lines. Happy, happy; joy, joy... 

I really wish the manuals for these products had a bit more detail.

The LSU utility requires a direct base connection.  However it may be worth a try to pick low speed connection from the LSU menu to work with the SER2. I am traveling and I can't recall where this is in the menus, but you should be able to find the setting. 

We plan to offer a version of LSU that connects over WiFi, so we did not add the firmware and hardware on the SER2 to keep costs down. 

The LSU utility requires a direct base connection.

whats the difference between the LCS utility and the LSU utility?

I wondered about the speed choice on the Legacy Utility...I don't remember selecting it but it's set to High Speed or Fast, how ever it's labeled. And there is a choice for Slow Speed. Funny no bit rates like 9600, etc. anyway Jim try "Slow"...as uninviting as it sounds  

So...let's clarify. The LSU is a Base maintenance utility and the LCS is another CAB, but with a big screen and many more features.

And until the version of LSU that will run over wifi is offered, the LSU on your PC still requires connecting the Base directly to the PC.

I tried running LSU on the PC with the DB9 from the SER2 and it doesn't work on either speed selection in the utility. I thought it was supposed to be essentially a Base DB9 so that it could be the connection from the base to whatever the base is to control...one would think that the connection to the PC is one of those things. But the send/receive of data from the Base to the PC is not possible thru the LCS system hardware and the SER2 DB9 port...eh?

Actually, I thought in the beginning that I would need a DB9 switch box to switch my Base from LSU use to LCS use...looks like I will need to get out the DB9 switch box. I originally preordered everything but the SER2 and then thought I could use it for the LSU and preordered it. Oh well...

LCS is a system of components and Apps to enhance, update older devices, work with older devices, o your layout. The bigger newer screen is a byproduct of the iPad. 

LSU is a PC based program used to update and save the data base, make modules, and create modules for engines. 

Sounds like it Right now the only option for LSU is a direct connection. And that was the info I got from Rudy (Railsounds) as well. 

Interesting...sort of...I get a green LED "RS232" blinking on my SER2 when trying to run the LSU on the PC from it. But still no "Base Connected" on the PC.

So what's missing here SantaFeFan, a two way street to the Base?

The SER2 must support two-way communication: serial data destined for the Base (such as when the SER2 is connected to an MTH TIU) as well as serial data sent out from the Base (such as when the SER2 is connected via cable to TMCC-aware accessories).

However, SanteFeFan's comments suggest there is some specific hardware and/or software requirement for bidirectional serial communication between the Base and a PC running the LSU which cannot be emulated by a SER2 and its LCS/PDI bus connection to the Base.

I am a bit surprised by the LSU not working at the low speed setting, I will check into that.  We can always update the LSU package and try and fix this when we drop the wifi supported version. 

 I have found out that my base that I have been using no longer talks to the LSU even when connected directly. Nothing worked on the LCS when I tried that either.

I have a spare base and everything LCS wise works on that. Yea!

I tried the low speed LSU from the SER2 on the good Base and still get Base "not connected". I do get a blinking green RS232 LED.

Wonder what's wrong with the first Base...it programs, etc. All else works...just not the DB9 to the PC (or to anything else). Need a spare for my spare

Marty

thanks. At this point in my LCS education that almost makes sense.

hopefully, I do not need to be a network programmer to get this working.

One thing I did not understand is that the Cab-2 communicates with the base that sends signals through the track to be received by the engines' antenna. For some reason (from some well-intentioned hobby store employee), I though the that the engines received signals from the Cab-2, well it does, but first each command goes through the Base then out to the track.

I'm making an appointment to have the squirrel come over and assist me with the setup when I get my LCS devices. He has a vast knowledge of all things LCS. Just hope he is not booked solid until his winter hibernation begins. I think this will be much better than hiring a staff of IT personnel or the Geek Squad.

(In other words, I'm lost so far on this, but haven't really gotten into it yet either.)

If the squirrel is booked, maybe Lenny the Lion is available 

I just checked the bad Base and pin 2, recv data is very loaded down...barely a volt or so of transition. Pin 3, send data is fine. So the receive input of the Base is shorted somehow. I take it this is a Uart chip of some kind. Wonder how hard it would be to find and replace. Surface mount no doubt...

EDIT..., it's the send data of the Base on pin 2...which is the receive on the PC end. I had my send/rcv mixed up.

Okay, so from what I understand the LSU will not work with the WiFi? Will the SER2 allow me to re-establish communications between the DCS and Legacy?

When will the WiFi version of the LSU be available......oh, and please make a way to print and store an engine database that I could send to an excel database or at least read and post something like that.

Thanks Marty! Since I am the only one here in Southern California that seems to be doing this I really appreciate the help! Now if shipping was only faster for the WiFi unit and the I-pad mini that I ordered........

Are you measuring this with a multimeter to the unconnected serial port pins on the Base, or with a 'scope monitoring an active connection between the Base and another serial device (like your USB serial adapter)?

I'm using an analog Tektronix scope with the Base connected to the serial port of the PC while the LSU is trying to connect. I have a breakout connection db9-wires-db9 to connect the scope to.

You've got some nice diagnostic tools there!

As you said, it is not likely that a board-level repair is possible. The problem might not even be with a UART - depending on the design, there could be a separate active line receiver between the DB9 port and the UART, or most of the active circuitry could be incorporated into the Base's processor.

After some checking, I mixed up the send and receive. Pin 2 out of the Base is the send data to the receive data on the PC. Anyway the Base has a 100 ohm impedance to ground at the output, DB9 pin 2. I did measure the output data pin 2 on my good base and get something like 4.5K ohms.

I don't know, but I don't think it is buffered since there have been issues with the current capability of the Base.

As was stated somewhere, the SER2 should end the issues with send data output current capability.

So anyway, I'll see what service can do for me on Tuesday I guess.

Speaking of diagnostic tools, these analog scopes are pretty cheap now days. A really good buy I think is the old 2200 series of Tek scopes. They usually can be found for less than a low end Fluke multimeter.

If you're going to buy a 'scope, I strongly suggest a digital model, they can be had pretty cheaply nowadays.

I have the earlier model of this one: ATTEN ADS1102CAL+ 100MHz 2CH Digital Oscilloscope, for $325 it's a very capable tool.

If you want one for more occasional use: Pocket 4CH Channel USB ARM DSO203 Quad Digital Storage Oscilloscope, at $169 is meter priced.

Rigol has a great digital scope for $399. DS1102E. In fact their bench multimeter costs more. Comes with two probes, etc.

But these Tek analog scopes are really handy, fast to set up, and are half that or less. I grew up with analog scopes and they are kind of a direct live view into what's going on, but digital does have a lot of math features and storage. No doubt there are reasons to go digital depending on your needs. Both is kind of handy

My digital scope does analog continuous measurements, so I haven't missed the analog model.  I have one under the workbench, and it hasn't been out since I got the digital scope.  Truthfully, I'm hard pressed to think of any reason I need an analog model, or any measurement that I can't do with the digital that I could do with the analog one.  I don't personally find the analog model to be any faster to configure than the digital for basic measurements.  I also love the ease that I can take screen shots, and all the computation features that come with the package.

I agree the Rigol is a very nice unit, I played with one a friend has.  I haven't had any complaints about my Atten either, but I suspect if I were choosing again I might buy the Rigol.

Probably just the menus on the dig that make me think. The knobs on the Tek only do one thing each

Thanks for the great suggestion about Lenny, gonna put him on the list as back up. I tried to contact the squirrel, but his personal assistant said he was out gathering nuts. May have to try getting a in touch with Lenny soon.