Steam Boiler

The tubes absolutely transfer heat and smoke to the smokebox! In the process, much of that heat is transferred to the water that surrounds each tube.

I am interested in seeing the finished documentary. No. 3 is a beautiful locomotive.

The animation quality is not bad, but it seems to show that No. 3 uses piston valves. Anyone know if that's true?

Hey Steve, While you're here, can you explain the brake system on the engines and cars (coaches) at Disney land..(.Briefly)

Do the engines have brakes.. does the tender have a hand brake?  Coaches? 

At Disneyland in CA, all the engines, tenders and cars have air brakes. They differ from their "full size" counterparts in that they use "straight air" to apply the brakes, meaning that they use the air pressure stored in the locomotive storage tanks to apply the pressure to the brake cylinders. The air pressure is created using standard Westinghouse-style locomotive air compressors, which are steam-operated. "

Real" trains today use an air pressure reduction to trigger the application of brakes on the train cars, using auxiliary tanks on each car.

At Disney World in FL, all the cars have air brakes using the same straight air system; however, the locomotives themselves do not have any brakes.

thank you.  I suppose you may have more time operating  (ooops! running)    a steam locomotive than most. I guess you have to do it every day ?  Neat place.

I don't work there; but I did play a minutely small roll in rebuilding one of the engines.

Nice video. Question - how often are the pipes cleaned to keep the heat flowing to the smoke box?

Seems like not a fun job.  Also if a locomotive takes on "bad water" How in the heck to get the scale and garbage out of the boiler?

J Daddy posted:

Nice video. Question - how often are the pipes cleaned to keep the heat flowing to the smoke box?

You clean the tubes because you want the heat to transfer to the surrounding water. Soot is a great insulator. In an oil burner, this cleaning is done by sending sand through the tubes (the draft of a heavy exhaust is enough to pull the sand through, but you can also turn up the blower). Cinders had the same effect on coal burners.

The old books state that you were supposed to sand the tubes any time excessive smoke was created. We usually sand at least once a trip; more if it's a new fireman who soots them up frequently. During our annual rebuild on the New Hope Valley, we use a wire "bottle brush" on the end of a 15-foot long rod chucked in an industrial drill to clean the tubes. A little messy, but mostly hard on your arms.

Seems like not a fun job.  Also if a locomotive takes on "bad water" How in the heck to get the scale and garbage out of the boiler?

You do blowdowns. Boiler washes will also help dislodge scale.

J Daddy posted:

Nice video. Question - how often are the pipes cleaned to keep the heat flowing to the smoke box?

As often as necessary under whatever conditions and fuel that the boiler is burning. A lot of oil or gas-burning stationary boilers will see a cleaning once a year. Coal or heavy oil burning locomotives would be a lot more often, depending on conditions. The main thing is to keep both sides of the tube clean, and  avoid build-up of soot on the fire-side and scale on the water-side of the tubes and fireboxes, so that the heat transfer to the water is efficient. That way ya makes more steam with the same fuel. 

Seems like not a fun job.  Also if a locomotive takes on "bad water" How in the heck to get the scale and garbage out of the boiler?

Bad water is handled by chemical water treatment by a variety of additives. Caustic soda, sodium sulphites, and other goodies to keep the water slightly alkaline and non-corrosive with as little dissolved oxygen in it as possible. Continuous blowdown is a method of steadily draining a small amount of water off the boiler. That slows down the build-up of dissolved solids and other nasties. It's done in addition to regular, heavier boiler blowdowns done for the same reason. 

Back when, I think it was the Santa Fe that had some areas of water so hard that a boiler waterside washout was needed after round trips to remove the built-up sludge. 

Maybe Hot Water and some of the heavy oil-burning boys can chip in with their expertise.

Firewood,

SMD4 pretty well covered the answers to JDADDY's questions.

Hot Water posted:

Firewood,

SMD4 pretty well covered the answers to JDADDY's questions.

Yes he did! Weird - his reply wasn't there when I started. Page re-load!

Firewood posted:

Continuous blowdown is a method of steadily draining a small amount of water off the boiler. That slows down the build-up of dissolved solids and other nasties. It's done in addition to regular, heavier boiler blowdowns done for the same reason. 

 

 

"Continuous blowdown?" Huh?

Stationary boiler maybe, but not on a steam locomotive.

smd4 posted:

Firewood posted:

Continuous blowdown is a method of steadily draining a small amount of water off the boiler. That slows down the build-up of dissolved solids and other nasties. It's done in addition to regular, heavier boiler blowdowns done for the same reason. 

 

 

"Continuous blowdown?" Huh?

Stationary boiler maybe, but not on a steam locomotive.

Best not to make closed-ended statements like that, Steve. The Union Pacific was one of the railroads that did indeed have continuous blowdown on many of their larger locomotives, including the FEF-3 class, i.e. 844. You might like to do some research on that feature.

I believe some locomotives utilize "surface blowdowns" depending on the railroad.  As I recall, Strasburg's Thomas locomotive has one.  Basically a valve near the top of the backhead at the normal operating water level that is kept cracked open to constantly skim anything that may be floating on top of the water, such as oil that could cause foaming.

None of our three locomotives has it, so I'm not sure how common that feature is, but it seems like I've heard of more than one use of it before.

Really? Interesting.

Thanks gents. I hadn't heard of continuous BD on steam locomotives either, but recall a Trains article mentioning a Santa Fe engineer who kept a trickle going " about the size of a soda straw". It might have been those jointed-boiler engines away back when, but maybe somebody has more details. 

If you ended up with vegetable soup in your boiler from sucking water out of the creek, a surface blow-down would indeed be handy.

If you ended up with vegetable soup in your boiler from sucking water out of the creek, a surface blow-down would indeed be handy.

     Some crews actually had to do   this right?   Another question... we know that water boils at 212degress  F  , Could one actually hear the water boiling with everything else going on?   Anyone know the exact ideal  water temp?  (or was there one?)

Gregg posted:

If you ended up with vegetable soup in your boiler from sucking water out of the creek, a surface blow-down would indeed be handy.

     Some crews actually had to do   this right?  

Many logging operations had their shays, etc., equipped for sucking water from rivers/creeks to replenish the tenders. I've never heard any discussion concerning "vegetables" getting into the boiler, however. Remember that water sucked from rivers/creeks went into the TENDER, and NOT directly into the boiler. There were/are screens inside each water supply connection from the tender to the locomotive's injectors, designed to catch foreign material.

Another question... we know that water boils at 212degress  F  , Could one actually hear the water boiling with everything else going on?

Not really, since it is under pressure, or at least trying to increase pressure. Water at, say 300 psi, is at a temperature of approximately 500 degrees. 

   Anyone know the exact ideal  water temp?  (or was there one?)

I don't understand this question. Ideal water temperature for WHAT?

 Also to add, any syphoning off the top of a boiler doesn't have much effect on removing sludge, etc., since all the heavier particles drop to the lowest portion of the boiler anyway.

  Anyone know the exact ideal  water temp?  (or was there one?)

I don't understand this question. Ideal water temperature for WHAT?

Forget that one, and thanks for the reply.

smd4 posted:

...  The animation quality is not bad, but it seems to show that No. 3 uses piston valves. Anyone know if that's true?

Sierra #3...

...definitely using slide valves.  my guess is that for the overly simplified animation, people can relate to the workings of a piston valve more than trying to explain the geometry/ operation of the slide valves.

cheers...gary

Makes sense. The reason I ask is because some slide valve engines were converted over to piston valves, but in those cases the steam chest usually looks pretty different.

Nice picture. Sure wish they'd make that engine in O gauge.

The water temperature of the boiler water depends on its pressure when you are generating steam. 

E.g., saturated steam at 300 psig is 422 degrees F and thus the water that is generating that steam is also 422 degrees F.

The greater the water temperature the more aggressive the chemical reactions. And thus increases the importance of water treatment.

There is an old story about a NYC Hudson with repeated road delays. The engine was shopped and nothing was found. So the engine was shopped again, and the tender also inspected. A turtle was found in the tender, and the conclusion was that the turtle had been "picked up" by the water scoop when the engine picked up water from the track pans. At odd intervals, the shell of the turtle would cover the water inlet from the tender to the engine, so the water pump and injector would not receive tender water, leading to "falling down on the road"!

Looking at Sierra No 3, I note that a lot of older steam locos had unevenly spaced drive wheels.  Can anyone provide a reason for that ?

Mostly because the firebox bottom and pan is lower than the driver axles. So driver axles had to go ahead of and behind the firebox. If you put all 3 drivers ahead of the firebox there would be to much unsupportede weight hanging behind the 3rd axle.

OK, due to altitude, is it easier to get a steam locomotive to proper temp and pressure in Houston TX (52 ft.) or Denver, CO (Mile ight)?

smd4 posted:

"Continuous blowdown?" Huh?

Stationary boiler maybe, but not on a steam locomotive.

Not so fast...

We run a continuous blowdown on the 765. A jet of water from the bottom of the boiler blows continuously through a fan-shaped nozzle on to the rail behind the #4 drivers. Serves two purposes, the continuous blow down and a rail washer.

Rich, this is a little off topic, but we ARE talking boilers so here goes.   I have been re-reading some of my old archived Trains Magazines and am currently reading the era when 611 was first restored to operation.  There of course was a lot of talk about the enormous performance of the N&W J and the specifications that made it so awesome, including their 300 PSI boiler pressure.   Now a Nickel Plate Berk is also an awesome performer, as well suited to it's intended role as any steamer ever designed, but it's specs are a touch on the conservative side.  Do you think that a higher boiler pressure, say 275 or 300 PSI would have improved the Berk's performance in a way that would have been useful to the Nickel Plate?  Since it's safe to say that you have more miles in the right hand seat of a NKP 700 than any other LIVING person, are there any design specs that YOU would have liked to seen changed?

I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to run a locomotive with a steam leak.

J Daddy posted:

I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to run a locomotive with a steam leak. 

Even without any "leaks", when the temperature is below 0 degrees, it sure isn't fun then!

One of the older conductors I worked with,  mentioned about his days as a head end brake man on a steamer in really cold weather.   Apparently his seat was squeezed in  just ahead of the fireman's .  His right side was  really close to the fire box(almost burning) and  on his left side cold steel.    Not much fun.  Yep every one would have coveralls , warm coats, long underwear, warm boots  ..

My dad was a hogger, I've heard him complain about engines with "Florida cabs"   in the winter. I guess the only protection were  canvas curtains..  

   Rich mentioned the number 4 driver, which one is it and why would you want to wash the rail continuously in dry weather....  Isn't there better traction with dry rail?

Gregg posted:

   Rich mentioned the number 4 driver, which one is it and why would you want to wash the rail continuously in dry weather....  Isn't there better traction with dry rail?

Starting at the front of ANY steam locomotive, and counting towards the rear, the number 4 driver is the last driver. THus, washing the rails behind the number 4, i.e. last, driver cleans the rail and allows the train to encounter reduced rolling resistance. Many railroads had rail washers on the steam power assigned to heavy mountain grades for such advantages. 

I get it now. Thanks HW. 

Blowdowns and water chemistry:

Considering that I don't know the specifics of boiler water chemistry near the end of the steam era, I will go from what I have learned and was said on this thread. It was stated that caustic soda was used for pH control (keep it from becoming acidic) and sodium sulfite (dissolved oxygen removal). These are added to the water, either directly into the boiler or in the make-up water (storage tanks and/or water tender). These chemicals add dissolved solids to the boiler water.

As the boiler water becomes steam (for work - moving loco), the steam is essentially pure (free of dissolved solids). Since the solids are left in the boiler water, their concentrations become greater in the boiler water. More water is added to maintain safe boiler water level with more chemicals to regulate pH and remove dissolved oxygen. Over the length of the operation the boiler water develops greater concentrations of solids (sodium sulfites and sodium sulfates, plus whatever dissolved solids were already in the source water). 

The longer the runs the greater the need to remove some of the solids (blowdown). The make-up water is less concentrated (solids) than the boiler water, so blowdowns would help extends run times between having to replace the boiler water.

Dieselbob posted:

Rich, this is a little off topic, but we ARE talking boilers so here goes...Do you think that a higher boiler pressure, say 275 or 300 PSI would have improved the Berk's performance in a way that would have been useful to the Nickel Plate?  Since it's safe to say that you have more miles in the right hand seat of a NKP 700 than any other LIVING person, are there any design specs that YOU would have liked to seen changed?

The NKP got exactly what they needed in the Berks, at 245 psi. The engines performed as they needed them to, getting long, heavy freight train over the road at a speed which worked for the railroad. Remember, the NKP was essentially a flatland railroad. There are no grades of consequence on the railroad. The Berks could get a 6,000 ton train over the road at 60 mph, which was all the NKP needed.

Higher boiler pressures bring higher maintenance costs. It's fine balance between getting the performance you need at the lowest possible cost of maintenance. The NKP, the Advisory Mechanical Committee and the Lima Locomotive Works hit the nail right on the head with the design of the NKP Berks. I would not change a thing.

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

   Rich mentioned the number 4 driver, which one is it and why would you want to wash the rail continuously in dry weather....  Isn't there better traction with dry rail?

Starting at the front of ANY steam locomotive, and counting towards the rear, the number 4 driver is the last driver. THus, washing the rails behind the number 4, i.e. last, driver cleans the rail and allows the train to encounter reduced rolling resistance. Many railroads had rail washers on the steam power assigned to heavy mountain grades for such advantages. 

especially when using sand for main driver traction.

TM Terry posted:

... Since the solids are left in the boiler water, their concentrations become greater in the boiler water. ...

why do you think they call it a "mud ring".

overlandflyer posted:

TM Terry posted:

... Since the solids are left in the boiler water, their concentrations become greater in the boiler water. ...

why do you think they call it a "mud ring".

I do hear you. 

I started employment in 1971 as the power plant was retiring a 900psig 20MW water tube boiler that was designed for sodium sulfite treatment for dissolved oxygen. It had high dissolved solids in the  boiler water. The top boiler drum where water level is controlled was relatively clean and there was a drum at the bottom of the boiler called the "mud drum". Much of the sludge settled out in the mud drum, that periodically needed cleaning.

Here's a few nasty pictures of scale build-up in an un-washed boiler.

 http://www.discoverlivesteam.c...gazine/190/index.htm

Firewood posted:

Here's a few nasty pictures of scale build-up in an un-washed boiler.

 http://www.discoverlivesteam.c...gazine/190/index.htm

Very interesting link.  Reminds me of the photos of what UP 844 looked like inside.