Steam Eng & Pass. car match-up

Have you looked into replacing the traction tires with the "black goop" people keep mentioning as a substitute?  Guess it goes in the traction tire groove in the driver and when hard works well without coming off.

Since it is a MUCH older model, the traction tires could simply be OLD. Not to mention, if you have been cleaning your track with that "Goo-Gone" stuff, THAT will eventually damage your traction tires. 

 

One thing you didn't mention; how sharp are your curves?

Google Bullfrog Snot. BF

I'm not talking about "original traction tires".  They have been changed 3 times since I owned the engine.  Last change was about a month ago.  I just replaced them today.

 

My curves are O72.  This engine is rated to run on O42.  No Goo-Gone stuff used.

 

Remember, my other engines with traction tires have no such problem.

 

Bill

Check the MTH traction tire chart and go one size smaller than listed for your engine. I would also make sure all of my cars had a fresh lube, axles and rollers.

Sasquatch, I have considered Bullfrog Snot, but according to expert Marty on this forum, you cannot run MTH Pacifics upside down.  I don't remember the specifics, but it had to do with connecting rods, etc.

 

Bill

The cars and loco sound well matched, to me, and since your other equipment has no
such problems, could it be that your "new" traction tires are old? Not to you, but as to
manufacture date. I have observed a lot of quality variation in TT; ideally they are
Neoprene, but some seem to be natural rubber (oil will soften them), or just plain low-quality.

Don't hit me: are they the right size?

I bought one of the Williams Masterpiece Dreyfuss Hudsons several years ago.
Beautiful, brand new - not just to me, but new production. Every traction tire on it was broken when I took it out of the box.

Who knows what some of the TT start out life as.

Wow, I thought I was doing good just to get the stock tire on.  Putting on a smaller one will undoubtedly be a bigger challenge for me.  I'll have to soak it in very hot water to soften it up.  The chart says the correct tire size is 29mm.  Next size down is 27mm.

 

I'll try it if I can get MTH to send me what I order.  Had some issues with them on that.

 

Bill

D500, you may have a point there.  The previous tires were put on by a LHS.  Perhaps they could have been old.  The ones I put on myself today came from MTH about 3 weeks ago.  I would hope at a minimum MTH's stock was "fresh".

In spite of what "Marty" said, to apply the Bull Frog Snot, you would not actually be "running the model up-side-down". All you need to do is to EVER SO SLOWLY moves the drivers, 1/4 turn at a time, in order to apply the "snot" (or RTV if you choose).

Hot Water: I need to know how to turn the wheels manually.  All of my Lionel/MTH engines, both steam and diesel, made since about 1990 do not turn freely like the post-war ones.  Is there a secret to unlocking them?

 

DPC: I have not observed that this engine is losing traction.  In fact, it goes up grades quite well.  It just seems like something is stressing those traction tires.  I could suspect track (Gargraves), but my other engines have run for a few years without ever having to replace the tires.

 

It appears the good news is from all the above posts that I am not overextending the engine's design capability to pull the 7 cars made for it.  I would be very disappointed to have to run it with two or more cars sitting on the shelf.  In that case, I would have to take the expensive route and buy a new era model.

 

Thanks all for the input.

 

Bill

Bill;

Is it possible the Hot water soak is reducing the strength of the tire?

Have you tried putting them on without doing that?

I replaced the rear pair of traction tires on one of my Big Boys and had no significant issues getting them on dry.

I just use a pair of very small allen wrenches to hook the loop in place and run one around the rim to seat the tire. Trying to stretch them on with bigger tools WILL stretch out the tire and ruin it.

Russell,

 

The hot water issue is as yet untried.  Previous tires have been installed by my LHS.  Soon I'll run the engine - first without passenger cars, and then, with to see what happens.  First, I'll need to remove an engine or two off the layout.  Requires removing either a So. Pacific Daylight (with 6 cars plus aux tender) or a Big Boy.  Those suckers are heavy.

 

Bill

The only "secret" I know of is to simply take the shell off and turn the motor to turn the wheels.  Since they're running on a worm gear, you aren't going to turn them without disengaging that gear.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  Doing that, however, is not something I desire to attempt, particularly in order to apply Frog Snot.  Installing a traction tire, while challenging for me, would be easier than removing the shell (might not be as hard for diesels) and manually turning the gear while trying to get a perfectly smooth Frog Snot layer.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

quote:

Could the cars be too heavy a load for this engine, even though it's pulling what was issued for it?

 

 

Yes.  It runs fine with 5 and starts acting up when you add two additional cars.  What's changed?  The additional load of two additional cars.  It's possible that the weight distribution on this engine isn't optimum.  If the passenger cars are illuminated, you might be able to reduce the rolling friction by altering the trucks.  No lights but the engine may be able to pull the full consist.

The biggest issue in taking the shell off most steamers is that the wires to the shell frequently don't have convenient connectors to allow you to remove the shell completely and set it aside.  The first thing I add when I take a shell off is some mini-connectors to allow me to do just that.

Bill,

I had a similar problem with my Pre 2000 Blue Comet Passenger cars, but it was just the opposite. The additional two car set ran very smooth behind a PS2 Blue Comet Engine. The five car set was extremely heavy did not roll well at all behind the engine, thus throwing traction tires constantly. I could not see a difference in the 5 car verses the 2 car set and for four months I was trying everything from lubricating the pickup rollers and the axels. I finally discovered the problem when I removed a set of wheels from the 5 car set and the 2 car set. Upon inspection I discovered the needle point ends of the axels were shorter on the 5 car set compared to the 2 car set. Replaced all the wheels on the five car set and have not had a problem since. Compare the needle point ends of the smooth rolling cars to the needle point ends of the rough riding cars and you will probably find a difference in the tapered points. You only need to pull off one or two wheels from each car.

Good luck,

Gus

Chuck, I was hoping not to hear this, but you may very well be right.  I have a Micro-Mark drawbar pull meter which most likely is not as accurate as whatever the train magazines use to test with.  However, we can glean some value in "relative" measurements.  A few minutes ago I tested the drawbar pull of the engine.  I thought I read a high value of nearly 4 lbs.  I don't believe the engine has that power, but it's reasonable to conclude it has a pull of at least 3lbs.  It pulled hard enough to unbend the wire hook that connects the coupler with the meter.  Then, I measured the resistance required to get the 5-car set moving, which read 3.4oz.  Next, I did the same for the two add-on cars and got a reading of 3.1oz.  I could not do a full 7-car read due to lack of enough level track.  But the above readings are interesting.  Also, for the first time I took notice of the weight feel of the two add-on cars.  I did not weigh them, but didn't need to - they are significantly heavier than any car of the 5-car set.  I'm not sure how valid it is to add the two figures for a total start-up resistance of the 7 cars as 6.5oz.  And those numbers represent effort to overcome inertia.  Once that has been overcome, the true "rolling" resistance may be less.  In any case, it appears the engine has enough raw pulling power to theoretically handle all 7 cars with power to spare.  I have never observed any pulling difficulty or drive wheel slippage (but as we know, something's happening).  The total package runs fine for a few round trips at which time a traction tire comes off.  Judging by the look of the old tire vs new, the old one was stretched.

 

This brings me back to your comment about engine weight distribution - a design fault.  I'm wondering if anyone else out there has had this problem with this era (Fall 1994 catalog) MTH Premium Ps-4s!

 

Thanks for everyone's posts.

 

Bill

Bill, Just a last minute thought;

Have you tried running the add on cars up front next to the engine?

If they are heavier, they will add flange side drag to all the cars in front of them on curves, thus moving them to the front could reduce total drag effect a bit.

Not sure if it will make enough difference but it's worth a try.

The best performance I ever got out of traction tires are the ones from Weaver. Order a pair of 27mm tires for that engine.  Weaver tires have a "tread pattern" on them that keeps them from bunching up and then slipping off.  They seem to "work" their way back and forth a bit under a heavy load without making a large "lump" on the surface of the tire. 

 

I have changed all my steam engine tires over to Weaver and completly forget about tires at all because the problem goes away.  I think that they might cost 3 or 4 bucks a pair; a very cheap price for eliminating a problem.

 

Paul Fischer