Stopping at control point

rrman posted:

Driving around passed a stacker on main line stopped short of what I "assumed" was a red signal.  Several hours later it was still there.  Had headlights on dim so I assume not parked and was crewed.

Wondered do trains have to report to DS that they are stopped at control point xyz, or wait X time period before calling in?

Sort of yes. Before I retired, we had this happen on the UP quite often. One time, after toning up the DS, he was kind enough to inform us that "Computer signal maintenance was going on, and you'll be there awhile.". sure enough, after more than an hour, the signal went green.

  Assume DS would know train not moving so could advise crew reason (trains ahead, or broken signal proceed slowly to next signal, or whatever is RR practice.)

Yes, the DS knows when a train is stopped at a "Control Point", and sometimes MIGHT inform the crew what is going on. Other times, all you will get from the DS is a curt, "Trains ahead!", when he/she is REALLY busy. 

Well at least "trains ahead" is better than radio silence.

rrman posted:

Well at least "trains ahead" is better than radio silence.

Sometimes you get that also, i.e. silence.

rrman posted:

 

Wondered do trains have to report to DS that they are stopped at control point xyz, or wait X time period before calling in?  Assume DS would know train not moving so could advise crew reason (trains ahead, or broken signal proceed slowly to next signal, or whatever is RR practice.)

Yes the crew is suppose to contact the Dispatcher,,    The dispatcher may not be able to set up a permissive signal for whatever reason and may issue written permission to pass the stop signal....

Gregg posted:

rrman posted:

 

Wondered do trains have to report to DS that they are stopped at control point xyz, or wait X time period before calling in?  Assume DS would know train not moving so could advise crew reason (trains ahead, or broken signal proceed slowly to next signal, or whatever is RR practice.)

Yes the crew is suppose to contact the Dispatcher,,    The dispatcher may not be able to set up a permissive signal for whatever reason and may issue written permission to pass the stop signal....

At an intermediate signal, maybe. But at a Control Point, probably not, without a signal maintainer at that locating finding out what went wrong. If the whole CTC system is "down for maintenance", the DS will not give you permission to pass a red at a Control Point.

 Right of my rule  book.......

.When a train or engine is stopped by a signal indicating STOP and no conflicting movement is evident:

(a) A member of the crew must immediately communicate  with the train dispatcher stating his name occupation location and train or engine number,

HW you need to go to rule  class,  I've taken many power switches "off power". after getting written permission to pass  a stop signal at a controlled location. 

Gregg posted:

 Right of my rule  book.......

.When a train or engine is stopped by a signal indicating STOP and no conflicting movement is evident:

(a) A member of the crew must immediately communicate  with the train dispatcher stating his name occupation location and train or engine number,

HW you need to go to rule  class,  I've taken many power switches "off power". after getting written permission to pass  a stop signal at a controlled location. 

 

Maybe that's the way they did in Canada, back when you worked.

Maybe that's the way they did in Canada, back when you worked.

Yep that the way we did it along with a number of American Railroads.

Now what does  your rule book say.... What railroad did you work for as a engineman??

Lets keep civil here.  Basically Hot Water and others answered my question of yes engineperson should contact DS to see what the heck is going on.  All i needed to know.

Gregg posted:

 Right of my rule  book.......

.When a train or engine is stopped by a signal indicating STOP and no conflicting movement is evident:

(a) A member of the crew must immediately communicate  with the train dispatcher stating his name occupation location and train or engine number,

HW you need to go to rule  class,  I've taken many power switches "off power". after getting written permission to pass  a stop signal at a controlled location. 

 

I fully agree, although permission was provided verbally over the radio or trackside phone (back when they were in use).

As for the intermediate signals, the dispatcher had no control over them, didn't know if you had stopped at one or not. They were "Stop and Proceed" [Stop then proceed at restricted speed], later changed to simply "Restricting" [Proceed at restricted speed] when displaying red in order to at least keep things moving. This did away with "G" plates on grades. "G" plates allowed a train to pass the intermediate signal displaying "Stop and Proceed" on a grade at restricted speed without stopping.

Maybe someone can answer this one for me, please? I had the (perhaps mistaken) understanding that the DS has an indication displayed on his CTC board for EVERY signal, not just those at control points. If only control points report track occupancy the DS would be in the dark a lot of the time wrt where trains are. Or is there usually a mix?

Lew

geysergazer posted:

Maybe someone can answer this one for me, please? I had the (perhaps mistaken) understanding that the DS has an indication displayed on his CTC board for EVERY signal, not just those at control points. If only control points report track occupancy the DS would be in the dark a lot of the time wrt where trains are. Or is there usually a mix?

Lew

Good question. The model boards I have seen seem to have lights at interlockings and sidings etc, although it wouldn't be that hard (but very expen$ive) to have every intermediate signal light up the board lamps and not sure what purpose it would serve other than knowing exactly where train was between two points.

As aside, when the Milwaukee was on its last legs, and next to zilch traffic/loads, an engineer friend said the DS would set all signals to green from Green Island IA to Marion IA or beyond or vice versa, and instructed to run at 15-20 MPH to kill the 12 hour schedule.  He USUALLY could if he didn't feel a sudden engine jolt and tug indicating derailment due to rail turnover or wheel drop down.  Anyway, The DS could follow train progress as model board lamps extinguished or went red (I think). Sad end.

The whole Milwaukee story is sad. Last built, best engineered and gone now like a flash in the pan.

At least we have the Hiawatha Railtrail.

We biked from the West portal to Roland.

Lew

geysergazer posted:

Maybe someone can answer this one for me, please? I had the (perhaps mistaken) understanding that the DS has an indication displayed on his CTC board for EVERY signal, not just those at control points.
The dispatcher does not have an indication for every signal.

If only control points report track occupancy the DS would be in the dark a lot of the time wrt where trains are. Or is there usually a mix?
There are sometimes points in between long stretches between control points that give an indication of a train's progression. There are also indications for tripped slide fences.

Just to bust the myths of your beloved "Crew Talk" emanating from your models, the dispatcher CAN NOT tell a crew to "Take the green"! The dispatcher has no idea what signal indication is displayed out in the field. The dispatcher only knows that he has lined the signals up for the train's movement. The dispatcher will tell the crew to be governed by"signal indication"!

Thanks. It figures that only for long stretches between control points would there be an indication of intermediate signals.

Dad spent many happy days in his last years listening (scanner) to actual "crew talk" between Espee crews and the DS and sometimes the Power Desk. Ya, spoken orders from DS to Crew are formal and precise. As they must be.

Lew

. . . Wondered do trains have to report to DS that they are stopped at control point xyz, or wait X time period before calling in?  Assume DS would know train not moving so could advise crew reason (trains ahead, or broken signal proceed slowly to next signal, or whatever is RR practice.) . . .

To receive instructions to pass a signal displaying a Stop indication (and this will always be at an Absolute Signal, a signal without a number plate on its mast) the train must be stopped at the signal.  Only then can the Train Dispatcher or Control Operator instruct the train to proceed past the signal.

There are two sides to Train Dispatchers giving out information about other trains:

1. In one hand, it does no harm to tell a stopped train that it will be held for a number of opposing movements to meet it, no matter what the method of operation is.  Where Track Warrants and ABS are the method of operation it is common for the Train Dispatcher to say, "Call me after the third train (or 2670 West) passes.  Then the DS can issue a Track Warrant for further movement.  It is not always wise to issue a TW permitting a train to proceed after meeting a specific train when multiple trains are involved, because, if conditions change with one of the proceeding trains, the whole plan could change.  Crews are always wise to record the engine number and time and location of every train they meet or pass.
2. It is never a good idea for a Train Dispatcher to give a moving train any information about other trains, moving or stopped (unless the DS is instructing one train to come up against the rear of disabled train and provide helper service).  The problem is that crews can then assume certain things and get a surprise when they encounter a train they knew nothing about.  The safe way to operate is to proceed on signal indication in CTC and visually confirm that other trains are completely clear of the Main Track and switches properly lined at meeting or passing points in non-signaled territory.

On some railroads, rules for train dispatchers require item 2.  On others, it is not required, but is considered good practice.

Number 90 posted:

 The problem is that crews can then assume certain things and get a surprise when they encounter a train they knew nothing about. 

Well now that ALL RR have fully operational functioning PTC systems, there are no more surprises anymore, right??

Dispatcher’s know on CTC territory were every train is according to his track line,or computer screen monitored track information,that’s displayed in front of him. He can now even tell if the train is operating under PTC . Train symbols are displayed.

The dispatcher can see every signal and if the auto router has him lined up and for how far slow orders and names of MOW with a track authority .

He can tell by the movement in each sector of code line that the train throws up if he’s moving in a block. The chief dispatcher can even monitor each trains speed.

So long story short,yes if the system is operating correctly a dispatcher can tell if a train is stopped at a stop and stay signal or a favorable signal that grants movement.

And the PTC can tell each Engineer up to six miles ahead of the signal .

It can show upcoming speed changes and when a bad signal is to be expected.

Gee Mack, you get to play with all of the new toys! 

Big Jim posted:

Gee Mack, you get to play with all of the new toys! 

Don’t know if it’s fun like toys,but it’s here to stay.

PTC can be useful,but it can be a real headache 🤕