T1 trust. The right locomotive built at the right time by the right people for the wrong reasons?

Assuming that is the goal (HIGHLY DOUBT IT)  where on earth would this supposed record breaking attempt occur?  There are only a couple of places in the whole country where this would be theoretically possible, and I don't see any of those places owners getting sucked into such foolishness.  How much of the NEC is rated for operation above 125 MPH, and will a T1 even fit under the catenary?  After spending millions of other people's dollars building this thing, would you risk wadding it up in a big pile just to prove a pointless point?

I doubt the T-1 will ever be built but if it is to try to break the speed record it  is downright irresponsible.

Besides there is no place to do it. 

when the PRR built the T-1, it ran only on Lines West as it could not negotiate the curves or clearances found on the eastern region. the same would be true today.

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

I know in the Past there was a test done on the old New York Central, that was a test for Speed Record of a Train, though it did have jet engines attached to it. The Historical Marker is in my town. I found this that gave a brief overview of it Though I don't think Norfolk Southern would be so keen on that happening on their rail line. That is one area that it could work. Though building a steam engine to try to break a world steam record, doesn't seem the best Idea to me, just to show one of the more interesting steam engines out there, as well as for excursions.

southern Railfan posted:

The point is there have been several rumors that the T-1 is being built to beat the A4 Mallards Steam Speed record of 126 MPH . But, is that really a good idea? Is it really ethical to rewrite history of the in the 21st century? In my opinion build the T-1 BUT DONT try to beat the world steam speed record set by the A4. 

I guess I don't understand your point. If this engine is built and they get the approvals why not see how fast it will go?  That is what we humans do; push the limits.

It is a different engine than the original (poppet valves, rebalanced drivers, new materials) so it is not rewriting history.  If this modernized/ updated T1 does set a new record, the A4 will still be the fastest original built steamer.

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Not exactly a significant portion of a full steam locomotive.   I'd prefer to see restoration efforts on something that might be completed in my lifetime.

First, I have listened to presentations from the T1 Trust at the PRRT&HS convention, and beating the OFFICIAL Mallard record was stated more than once as an objective.

However, there is an UN-official story that a PRR E2 atlantic actually ran 127 mph on the Ft Wayne Division.    This was not sanctioned or officially witnessed and recorded.    There are many references to this speed run.

As for the T1, I don't think it is right loco to build, and this is just my opinion.    It is too big and therefore restricted in where it can run as mentioned above.    But more me, it represents a very small part of PRR history, or steam loco history.    I would rather see a new K4 or M1 or M1A built.    The K4s were originally put in service in 1918 I think and some ran until the end of steam in 1957.    That is 39 years of service!   That is a good design.    The M1s entered service in 1928 and some ran until 1957 also, or 29 years of service.    The T1 was late in Steam developement and I think only lasted about 5 years in service.    So to represent the steam era and well designed locos by the Pennsy, I think the K4 or M1/M1a are better candidates.

southern Railfan posted:

But that's not the point. The point is there have been several rumors that the T-1 is being built to beat the A4 Mallards Steam Speed record of 126 MPH . But, is that really a good idea? Is it really ethical to rewrite history of the in the 21st century? In my opinion build the T-1 BUT DONT try to beat the world steam speed record set by the A4. Tell me your thoughts.

YouTube video about T-1 beating steam speed record: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSGyVkeDGg4

As much as I have mixed feelings on the T1 project, I don't think that it is appropriate to judge the project based on rumors. Why judge them based on ambitions they do not claim to have?

It might have been discussed as a possibility early on for the group, but they haven't been suggesting that idea. The real question might be about being too unorganized at the start to keep their mission straight with the public, but that is certainly not the case now. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd prefer to see restoration efforts on something that might be completed in my lifetime.

John,

I personally agree with you, but I'm still rooting for them to succeed. They even have some of my money.

The T1's were used west of Harrisburg, PA, on the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions all of which are east of "Lines West" which were west of Pittsburgh, PA.  The original T1's had lateral motion devices on axles #1 and #3 (IIRC), so they could traverse Horse Shoe's 9 deg, 30 min curve.  They also regularly got into and out of St. Louis Union Station, which had a very sharp approach curve (Forget the degrees at the moment).  They did have some problems just west of the Pittsburgh station, but these were caused by the turnout geometry and the back-to-back spacing on the divers.  Adjustments were made to solve the problems.

The AAR's Transportation Technology Center near Pueblo, CO would have the track and capability to see how fast a "new" T1 could go.  

Whether they would ever be agreeable to hosting such a test is doubtful.

Curt

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Wow two drive wheels have been made. Give me a break. 

Who is going to cast the frame? Not here in the USA. 

For all those that have donated money to this worthless cause (my opinion) should ask for their money back.

I agree with guns all the money and effort put into the T1 project would be better spent on restoration of a already built engine. 

david1 posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Wow two drive wheels have been made. Give me a break. 

Obviously YOU could do much better?

Who is going to cast the frame? Not here in the USA. 

Since you seem to know so much about this, why can't the frame be constructed/fabricated of castings and weldments?

For all those that have donated money to this worthless cause (my opinion) should ask for their money back.

Glade you pointed out that is your "opinion"! In my "opinion" you don't know what you're talking about.

I agree with guns all the money and effort put into the T1 project would be better spent on restoration of a already built engine. 

OK, pick one or two locomotives that COULD be candidates for restoration, that would also have a place to operate and equipment to pull.

David, they have completed more than just a set of driving wheels. They also completed the cab and the prow. I know that's not the major bits of engine like a frame or a boiler but its something to show. that's a lot more than other steam projects.

Read the T1 Trust Facebook page as I was not that aware of the goal of the project and I have to say I really see no problem with the goal of the group.

Kind of refreshing really. If it does not work out, there was still a group of dedicated people who decided to get off their A** and try to do something that interested them.

After reading some of the BS posted above I hope the group not only breaks the speed record, I hope they do it pulling a much heavier load going uphill against the wind!

Then when that is done, I hope someone from the other side of the pond tries the same thing. Much more interesting to me.

Charlie

All very interesting.  You have forced me to think about the meaning of the word "ethics."  So far, I believe ethics has only to do with how you handle the donations.  I do not give a whit about speed records, but the point of a "record" is that it can be broken.

You are certainly right about the records are meant to be broken. And I probably shouldn't used ethical.

david1 posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Wow two drive wheels have been made. Give me a break. 

Who is going to cast the frame? Not here in the USA. 

For all those that have donated money to this worthless cause (my opinion) should ask for their money back.

I agree with guns all the money and effort put into the T1 project would be better spent on restoration of a already built engine. 

Really, frame can't be cast in the USA?  I guess being in the steel business under the umbrella of the largest steel distributor in the US which in turn does business with almost every mill, forge, and steel producer in North American I find the comment ill educated at best.

While the frame may not be cast in the exact method and process as was original (let's hope not, the forging and casting industry has come along way since the 1950's), there is no reason it cannot and will not be done in the US.  There are many options, such as those Hot Water pointed out.

As for other projects the money could or "should" be put into, that point is moot.  The project is and always has been the T1 Trust, don't like it, don't donate. Feel free to donate your money and time to these other projects you deem more worthy.

Hot Water posted:

david1 posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Wow two drive wheels have been made. Give me a break. 

Obviously YOU could do much better?

Who is going to cast the frame? Not here in the USA. 

Since you seem to know so much about this, why can't the frame be constructed/fabricated of castings and weldments?

For all those that have donated money to this worthless cause (my opinion) should ask for their money back.

Glade you pointed out that is your "opinion"! In my "opinion" you don't know what you're talking about.

I agree with guns all the money and effort put into the T1 project would be better spent on restoration of a already built engine. 

OK, pick one or two locomotives that COULD be candidates for restoration, that would also have a place to operate and equipment to pull.

 

They already have a Company in the good old USA that wants to do the work manufacturing the frame.  David1, you would do well to do a little research in the matter before posting.   The issue isn't fabrication of the parts, it's the money they require to get this project done.

Since the T1 is my favorite steam engine,I think that this project is a fascinating idea,all the way around.  I probably saw one of these monsters when I was very young.  As far as ethics goes,the only thing that would be unethical would be if someone squandered funds and took off to Bora Bora.

Given today's hype,I don't think that it would be a problem for a major railroad to loan a section of track for a speed run.  Just think of all of the publicity!

My hope is that I would be around to bear witness to the run----if possible,I would be there.

Rumor has it that the T1 unofficially broke the record in the 40's anyway.

This project should be fun,make it so!

Norm

Aww  come on youse guys.  Where is your sense of romance?  This is AMERICA!

Trump is in the White House and we will 'Make America Great Again' - this is what we're talking about.

Let's dream big again.  Imagine again. Shoot for the moon (oh, that's already been done :-)   Do the impossible.

You say the Brits now have the record?   Let's take it back!

Much new technology out there and more every day.  Build the Mighty T1.

I have to admit that this is one of my top two or three steamers so I'm all for the project.

Just look at this beautiful machine

Then let's build a Hudson...

I was reading through this hoping for more insight from Jack (Hot Water) as he knows the inside of steam preservation better than anyone else here.

As for the comments on why a new T1 should go for the Mallard record, why not? I agree with the others who have supposed it would be tough (if not impossible) to get permission to use the tracks where any non-company-owned loco would be allowed to go anywhere near that fast, steam or diesel.

Please, let's keep the rumors out of this discussion of all the other locos that "supposedly" went faster than Mallard's 1938 record. For years, I've heard of rumors of PRR, MILW and NYC locos going faster than this, none ever supported by data and all 'unofficial' runs just to see if they could do it.

As far as I know, the 1936 run of a German 4-6-4 is argued by many German historians as the true record holder (at just shy of 125 MPH), in that their run was on level track, not downhill as Mallard's run was, and that the German loco was just fine after that run; Mallard, as far as I've read, needed a lot of work after limping away from a run which caused a lot of problems for the locomotive.

There were plans, I've read, for a run at 130MPH (a speed which the crew later said could have been met in '38 if Mallard hadn't had to slow down for a couple of junctions along the run) in 1939 with another A4 Pacific, but we all know where the focus for the empire was by the fall of that year.

I haven't read much on the T-1s, but several knowledgeable steam folks aren't calling BS on the possibility, so to me this suggests it was technically possible for a T1 to have gone that fast. I doubt it ever did, from what I've read.

All this said, as others have pointed out there are few places you could go that fast in the US for any appreciable distance. Would any of them let a steam locomotive go for the record? Sure, UK's Tornado recently broke 100MPH on a mainline, but that run was made at night, with very little fanfare until it had accomplished the task.

Let's not forget that nobody ever made a serious attempt to go that fast with steam ever again in any official capacity. I can't help but think there might be a reason for that.

Might as well make the picture a hot link to the site.

Hot Water posted:

david1 posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Wow two drive wheels have been made. Give me a break. 

Obviously YOU could do much better?

Who is going to cast the frame? Not here in the USA. 

Since you seem to know so much about this, why can't the frame be constructed/fabricated of castings and weldments?

For all those that have donated money to this worthless cause (my opinion) should ask for their money back.

Glade you pointed out that is your "opinion"! In my "opinion" you don't know what you're talking about.

I agree with guns all the money and effort put into the T1 project would be better spent on restoration of a already built engine. 

OK, pick one or two locomotives that COULD be candidates for restoration, that would also have a place to operate and equipment to pull.

 

 With all due respect Jack. 844 was never gonna run again but a t1 will be built from scratch???

Let's not forget what Ole P.T. Barnum said

 It might be better to donate money to any of the current historical steam programs.

Build a J Hudson ... now that would be a worthy project!

RickO posted:

 With all due respect Jack. 844 was never gonna run again but a t1 will be built from scratch???

Well, the poor 844 almost didn't make it, until outside contractors and LOADS of money were thrown it it. To be clear, I have NOT said that a T1 "will be built from scratch", however, it certainly IS doable.

Let's not forget what Ole P.T. Barnum said

 It might be better to donate money to any of the current historical steam programs.

All of those "programs" also have their own fund raising organizations, some being VERY effective, and some not so effective. 

I have not been supporting this project only because of the limited places it run on the east coast.  I have also been disillusioned on modern steam being built since David Wardale's big project came to a halt. That being said I have some points for discussion.

1. As to where to attempt a sanctioned speed record, It may be possible at the FRA test facility in Colorado.  They do lots of interesting work there, especially on long term bearing wear, truck design, crash worthiness, etc., but I don't know about high speed testing.  Since this isn't my project I'll let someone else do the research.

2. Running steam locomotives at high speed is really hard on the track due to the reciprocating mass of the drive rods and to some degree the valve motion pieces.  If you were truly interested in a design that would have a better chance at achieve high speed without tearing up the tracks as it went you would be looking more into a 3 or even 4 cylinder design.  This wouldn't eliminate the reciprocating mass but it would even out the forces hammering away at the rails, and reduce the need for wheel balancing.  Beyond that you need to lighten up the connecting rods as much as possible, even if it means deviating from traditional steels.  Believe it or not it may be possible to aluminum connecting rods.  This may seem far fetched to some but you can Al piston rods for automotive applications that see significantly higher rpm and temperatures.  There is also multiple research projects ongoing to use carbon fiber for automotive connecting rods instead of steel or aluminum. This would reduce the unsprung weight and reciprocating mass even further.  ( I don't know it the T-1 was any easier on the track than a conventional 4-8-4. )

3. If you are going to raise a ghost machine from the dead, I think the PRR T-1 is a good choice.  It was technically sound even though it had a reputation early on for slipping.  Also, let's face facts, it has an inspiring appearance!

david1 posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Well if you check their facebook page, they already have few drivers made. the cab is built and they have the head light assembly.  You can check out their website for the reason why they chose the T1 over other engines.

Wow two drive wheels have been made. Give me a break. 

Who is going to cast the frame? Not here in the USA. 

For all those that have donated money to this worthless cause (my opinion) should ask for their money back.

I agree with guns all the money and effort put into the T1 project would be better spent on restoration of a already built engine. 

That's why there are different types of people in the world.  Some focus their time and effort to see what they CAN do.  Some sit in front of a keyboard all day telling people what they CAN'T do.

It must be miserable to spend all your time telling others that their efforts are wasted, even though they've already accomplished more than you ever could.

I think people need to lighten up a bit, it is nice to see there are people out there who aren't afraid to dream and to do something that to many of the good, solid citizens of this country is a 'frivolous waste of time', it is nice when grownups can in some ways return to being kids and actually allow themselves to be dreamers, to do the crazy thing, whatever. The donors aren't being defrauded, unlike some people who shall remain nameless, they aren't promising a rate of return on the money invested and then stiffing them, no one is being deceived or defrauded, people know this is a will of the wisp and they donate hoping that this in fact someday will happen, and hopefully they are not donating money that they need to eat or whatnot. Some may say "well, why don't you donate money towards something useful, like a charity", but that is ridiculous, one doesn't preclude the other, and there has to be room to dream and to shoot for the moon, and if people want to 'waste' their money on it, so what?  And if they can build this, wow would that be the ultimate in scale 1 to 1 modelling and if they can break the speed record, it would be an adult version of what we used to do with our trains back in the day (if we were so lucky), 'racing' the engines.  Heck, if I had the money, I would fund building a J1 Hudson, that would be the ultimate for me. 

As to whether a T1 is the right engine or not, I leave that up to personal choice!

I have to ask this:

Over several years, imagine how many people told a certain group of Brits that they'd never build this:

And for the speed test run, the only cars you could pit behind it today would be Amfleets.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

And for the speed test run, the only cars you could pit behind it today would be Amfleets.

Wrong!

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

And for the speed test run, the only cars you could pit behind it today would be Amfleets.

Wrong!

Yeah, I've seen private cars zooming down the NE corridor behind the fastest electric engines that Amtrak has, and I'd bet those are going (or at least can go) as fast as the steam speed record, as they regularly go 125 down that track and way faster with the Acela.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but doesn't "Amtrak certified" for a private car mean they can go down the NE Corridor as well at those high speeds?

p51 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

And for the speed test run, the only cars you could pit behind it today would be Amfleets.

Wrong!

Yeah, I've seen private cars zooming down the NE corridor behind the fastest electric engines that Amtrak has, and I'd bet those are going (or at least can go) as fast as the steam speed record, as they regularly go 125 down that track and way faster with the Acela.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but doesn't "Amtrak certified" for a private car mean they can go down the NE Corridor as well at those high speeds?

Yes.

Lots of assumptions here. Please actually go to the T1 website.  You will find much information there.  Also take note of the many steam experts that are working on the project.  Gary Bensman is one that some may recognize  (one of the more famous FWRHS members.)  

p51 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

And for the speed test run, the only cars you could pit behind it today would be Amfleets.

Wrong!

Yeah, I've seen private cars zooming down the NE corridor behind the fastest electric engines that Amtrak has, and I'd bet those are going (or at least can go) as fast as the steam speed record, as they regularly go 125 down that track and way faster with the Acela.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but doesn't "Amtrak certified" for a private car mean they can go down the NE Corridor as well at those high speeds?

Has there been a revision to Amtrak SMP 28603 since 2013 ?  That limited PV [ and railway business cars ! ] to either 90 or 110 mph, depending on truck criteria.

Amtrak has similar limitations for its own "Heritage" cars, I think;  remember Chase ?

SZ

Donate to "charities?" There are so many of them that are scams that many times it's hard to distinguish the good from the ify down to the "scammers" . At least this organization is progressing well and with some wheels, a cab, and some other parts done I am willing to support their efforts. I hope there is no fraudulent activity here as one wiff and I am out!!! Just like the "SteamTown organization" pulled in the 1990's.

PRR Man posted:

when the PRR built the T-1, it ran only on Lines West as it could not negotiate the curves or clearances found on the eastern region. the same would be true today.

That was initially true of the two prototype engines, 6110 and 6111. They had trouble negotiating the tight curve between the west end of the Pittsburgh station and the Allegheny River bridge. The "production" models 5500 - 5549 had no such restriction and operated from Harrisburg to Chicago and Harrisburg to St. Louis throughout their brief careers.

There are loads of photographs showing T1s at Harrisburg, exchanging trains with GG1s.

Within a year or two the restrictions on 6110 and 6111 went away, after the curve at Pittsburgh was reconfigured.

The S1 was never able to traverse that curve and spent her entire career between Crestline and Chicago.

The Q2 duplex freight engines were utilized between Conway yard near Pittsburgh and Chicago or Rose Lake Yard in East St. Louis.

All classes could run through the Pittsburgh area to reach Altoona for shopping, either via the Conemaugh Line or the Ohio Connecting Bridge, Monongahela Division trackage and the Port Perry bridge. Both routings bypassed the troublesome Pittsburgh curve and the passenger station. Photographic evidence exists of Q2s pulling freight around Horseshoe Curve, possibly while working their way back to Conway after shopping at Altoona.

All that being said, anyone who thinks they will see a T1 in the future at 126+ MPH should probably not get behind the wheel of a car or operate heavy machinery.