The "O-Scale" Gateman. A real disappointment.

Most of the postwar stuff and postwar reissues are not anywhere near scale.

The gate man, railroad crossing flasher, cross bucks, cross bucks with lights,  prewar flagman,etc.  They were originally marketed for standard or o gauge and nowhere near scale for o gauge.

MTH and K-Line have gateman shacks that are close to scale and look pretty good.

With that being said I love my Lionel 45n gateman shack.  It’s tinplate and the lantern is lit from below.

Also the Lionel gateman is not O scale, it is O gauge and meant to be a toy, not a realistic part of a scale layout.  I have always appreciated the smile on a child’s face when the little blue man pops out of the building and waves his lantern at the passing train.                  
                 
                                                               “ Priceless “

By the way, I believe the Lionel gateman has been in production since 1935, that would be over 85 years of making children smile.

Err,  Keith,

The face of the box says "O" Scale, not O Gauge.

LOL ,wait til Manny gets his hands on one of the 154 crossing signals

Piffle.  This is like complaining that the Mickey Mouse handcar isn't scale.

The Gateman was designed in the era of Standard Gauge trains, and no one gave a hoot about scale.  It was designed to keep children interested and occupied, not earn someone a MMR badge.  As to quality, quite a few of those 85-year-old toys continue to work well today.  That, my friend, is quality, quality that few modern products will ever equal.

A good friend of mine once complained that the taco salad he was served at a restaurant had lettuce in it.

P.S.-  A Blue Man with no face would, I think, make a child cringe, not smile.

I think I'm gonna replace him with a figure of a cowboy with a shotgun.  :-)

Pallalin,

If the Gateman was designed in the era of Standard Gauge, then they need to take "O" Scale off of the box.

You train guys are an interesting crew.  You get outraged if a certain model Locomotive has a bell glued on it, instead of a whistle like the original, but if a product says its "O" Scale, and it isn't, then you are fine with that.   :-)

Mannyrock

Mannyrock, I may be in the market for one. My dads postwar gateman lost his hand and flag. Can you post a picture of your gateman? We might be able to make a deal.

Thanks.

Charlie

@Mannyrock posted:

Pallalin,

If the Gateman was designed in the era of Standard Gauge, then they need to take "O" Scale off of the box.

You train guys are an interesting crew.  You get outraged if a certain model Locomotive has a bell glued on it, instead of a whistle like the original, but if a product says its "O" Scale, and it isn't, then you are fine with that.   :-)

Mannyrock

It was also sold as an O Scale accessory because scale was not only fluid but relatively unimportant at the time, Manny.  That obsession is contemporary (and I do not happen to share it).  I happen to appreciate all the various kinds of toy trains (they are all toys unless they are 1:1 scale AND generate revenue).  I appreciate a well-detailed scale model for what it is; I appreciate the Gateman for what it is.  I have no problem with lettuce in my taco salad, but I don't want it on my burrito

I do not happen to share the obsession with electronic gimcrakery, either.

Charlie,

That's the thing.  This one doesn't have a flag!   His left arm is molded tightly to his body, with nothing in the hand.  His right are is a dangling plastic arm, hanging on a thin plastic pin, and holding a lantern.  I guess that when the figure is thrust outside and through the little door, then that hanging arm is suppose to momentarily shake back and forth from momentum, and that's about it. 

I saw some pictures of old ones, where I think the guy's right hand is holding a flag, but this one is nothing like that.  :-(

If I keep it, I'm going to drill a hole in his left hand, and stick a real thin flexible spring in it, like the spring from a ball point pen, and put a flag on the end of it.  Hopefully, when he comes out, the spring willwag back and forth from hitting the door, and waive the flag.

Mannyrock

Charlie,

It appears that there may be two models, the 145 Gateman, and the 45 Gateman.  I think the 45 Gateman is a tintype.

If you go to Ebay and search for Lionel 145 Gateman, you will see that you can buy the entire man, with arm and lantern attached, or just the arm with the lantern, or just the lantern itself, each for under $8.00.   

Mannyrock

Manny

A search of eBay shows the original Lionel 145 Automatic Gateman box does not  say O scale as well as the reissue from 1987 which does say " LIONEL Big, Rugged Trains & Tradition since 1900, O and O27 Gauge Automatic Gateman.  A search of eBay Gateman items with pictures would show the Gateman was a giant as well as his shack.

The Gateman is one of Lionel's most popular accessory.  Lionel trains almost never said any of their trains were scale models with 700E scale Hudson locomotive and later 773 Hudson being exceptions.  Most Lionel trains sold were 3 rail O27 which is about 20% small than 1/4 inch to the foot O scale.  These and 3 rail O gauge were TOY trains with no pretense to be scale model trains or accessories.

This forum is Hi-rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O GAUGE.

There is a forum for 3-Rail SCALE.

Charlie

Wow.

You should meet his cousins, the original Blue Man Group, that ride on the #50 Gang Car.

Sorry Charlie,

I am holding the box in my hand.  The front of the box says:  "O" Scale, LIONEL AUTOMATIC GATEMAN.

It does not say model 145 Gateman.  The Product number on the side of the box is 6-2145.

So, this is not the 145 Gateman.  It was built under a license by Lionel to use its name and gateman engineering  design.  The license was granted to General Mills.

In small print, on the back of the box, at the very bottom, it says:  Lionel of Fundimensions, A Division of General Mills Fun Group, Inc.

Obviously, Lionel allowed General Mills to create and sell cheaper copies of the Gateman using the Lionel trade name.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted

Obviously, Lionel allowed General Mills to create and sell cheaper copies of the Gateman using the Lionel trade name.

Mannyrock

That's because at that time Lionel was no longer a model train company.  All Lionel trains were made by General Mills at the time.

Lionel would probably not exist today if it wasn't for General Mills.

Rusty

Doing a quick Google search, the Gateman (the one we are talking about with the shack and man that comes out) seems to consistently come with a lantern on the end of the arm (may not always have a lighting effect for the lantern though, IIRC).

The Flagman (no shack, generally some sort of cross-bucks on the platform) has (wait for it....!) a Flag on the end of his arm!.   Link to Lionel instructions.  Do a Google search on Lionel 6-12892.  I don't have a picture I own to paste the actual photo.

The Flagman is just as out of scale as the Gateman.  But he does have the flag on the end of his arm.

And yeah, as Rusty mentioned, it's not that Lionel "allowed" the MPC division of General Mills to make the trains.  MPC/General Mills were Lionel as it existed as a company at that time.

-Dave

Mannyrock,  I think your best bet would be to acquire a MTH or K-Line watchman. ( They do not use the term gateman ) They are both close to scale although I think the MTH model looks a little better.  They generally sell for about the same price as a 145 however some road specific names sell for a little more. E-bay has several on their site for you to look at and this will give you an idea of what I am talking about.  As far as boxes I have looked through the archives and am unable to find a box that says O scale so your box must be an early MPC box when the “ new Lionel “ licensing agreement took place. They were in their infancy and made some mistakes but I think most people will agree that if it were not for General Mills, we might not be playing with our trains right now.  

There are generally three camps in model railroading.

1 ) Those that build and operate scale or close to it

2 ) Those that consider their trains toys and have no problem with a gateman being taller than the trains they operate

3 ) Those who can appreciate both.

I am in the third camp.

My dad bought me the gate man in 1949. He still works well to this day. That clink when the door closes is a sound from my yute that I love.

Just personal preference, I use the #0145 (H0) Gateman on my layout. It's a little big for H0, and a little small for 0, but it's Lionel.

I'm thinking of taking all my toy accessories - crossing gates, flashers, cross bucks, gateman etc - with my G scale stuff. It would certainly look better since my G stuff is all toy like Christmas anyway.

Gads guys, it's time for Gateman to retire and enjoy The World's Greatest Hobby from the comfort of his home.

How about a Century 21 scale verson?  Mark, The Menards Train Guy, do you read me?

I have my oversized Automatic Gateman in the back part of the layout.  Distance makes things seam smaller.  But I am one who has some Matchbox HO sized autos and trucks on my Toy O27 layout too.  I think scales are things that cut your hands on some fish!

Perspective can make things appear to be smaller or larger than they are.

Charlie

Great information from all.  Thanks.

And for your Archives:

It has a Toys-R-Us price sticker attached to it.  Price was $17.95.

I think that my final solution will be:

1.  Pull the ugly Gateman from its base.

2.  Substitute a pre-painted true O-Scale Bandito figure in the unit.  (There are some great ones out there.)  I will put the pressure switch on the track far away from the shack, so that the Bandito pops out way before the incoming train arrives.

3. Find a pre-painted true O-Scale  railroad gateman figure.

4.  Hang the new gateman by the neck from the crossing bars.  (Of course, I will have to use a heat gun to soften his neck so that I can cock his head to one side first.)

Mannyrock

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Gads guys, it's time for Gateman to retire and enjoy The World's Greatest Hobby from the comfort of his home.

How about a Century 21 scale verson?  Mark, The Menards Train Guy, do you read me?

MTH has already done this. Just as they have done with most of the Lionel "postwar style accessories"  and operating cars for that matter, IMPROVED them. Yes, MTH will be greatly missed, trains and accessories alike.

Heres a video from another forum member  Country Joe:

@Mannyrock posted:

...In small print, on the back of the box, at the very bottom, it says:  Lionel of Fundimensions, A Division of General Mills Fun Group, Inc.

Obviously, Lionel allowed General Mills to create and sell cheaper copies of the Gateman using the Lionel trade name.

Manny, you need to read up on the history of Lionel. At the time your product was made, General Mills WAS Lionel. They owned the company, lock, stock and barrel.

Thanks Rich,

I assumed it was a license for product production, which is what the vast majority of companies that own a valuable registered trademark or tradename do.

I was unaware that they sold everything to General Mills, including the tradename and all manufacturing designs.

If this was the case, then "Lionel" died on that day.  Since General Mills owned the tradename and assets, they could slap the name on anything whatsoever they wanted, including shoddy goods.

Remember when the Maytag made washing machines that lasted a full 20 years?   (My mother only went through two of them in her entire 78 year life.)

Well, several years ago, Maytag went bankrupt, and sold its tradename to a new company, that then slapped the name "Maytag" on the cheapest junk washing machines that the Chinese could make.  Unfortunately, I bought one, for $800.  It lasted three years, then the plastic drum assembly broker, and then was unrepairable  (unless I wanted to pay $750 to repair it), so it went to the landfill.  :-(

Mannyrock

Thanks for the advice regarding the MTH and K-Line watchmen.   I took a long look at them online.  They both look great.  Obviously, very high quality products compared to the Lionel.

For now, since I paid less than $20 for the Lionel Watchman, I guess I'll try my El-Cheapo solution.  I think the next $90 I'll spend  will be for a used MPC locomotive.

Thanks again.

Mannyrock

The Lionel Corporation sold the tooling used to make Lionel trains and accessories and American Flyer train and accessories to General Mills in 1969, and leased the rights to use the Lionel name for a percentage of net sales.  That agreement survived until 1995 when Richard Kughn purchased the remaining assets of the dying Lionel Corporation, and recombined them as Lionel, LLC.

The only difference between the Lionel Corporation Post War #145 Operating Gateman, and the General Mills Modern Era 6-2145 unit is the lack of paint on the face.  In fact, many parts were from leftover Post War inventory.  

The “cheap” version was introduced in 1987, when the man wasn’t even painted blue, and the base was changed from stamped steel to cardboard.  The building was molded in bright yellow translucent plastic.

Also, nobody seriously ever uses the pressure plate for anything other than taking up space under the layout.

Jon

Sorry Gramps... we were both typing at the same time!

Jon

Well then Kooljock, it sounds as if  I was correct.   Lionel retained ownership of its name and merely licensed it to General Mills when it sold them its other assets.  (A lease of an intellectual property right is called a license.)

But here is the sad part.  When the owner of a tradename (such as Lionel Company) licenses a tradename to a manufacturer (such as General Mills), the licensor must and does retain a final right of approval, in the license agreement, as to the quality, condition, and design of the products upon which the tradename will be displayed or stamped, as well as the manner and mode of how the tradename will appear in marketing material.  Why?  Because if the do not retain this right of approval, then the license is regarded as a "naked license", which means that the licensee could slap the name on any type of product, of any type of quality, it desired (no matter how junky), and use the tradename in advertising, in any manner or mode it desired.    If this happens, then the tradename becomes worthless and generic.  Eventually, it is regarded as available for public use.

So, sadly, Lionel company gave its final approval to General Mills, on all of the cheapened products it made.  Why did they do this?  Because Lionel needed those royalty payments for each item sold, and if they were too tough on standards with General Mills, then General Mills would just stop using the license and stop paying the royalties.

In most of these types of instances, to get the approval,  the licensee would send to the licensor a package with the final design and products specs, and the proposed advertising materials, and the licensor would give it  a "quick once over", make a few small suggestions for corrections, and then after the corrections are made, grant its approval for to the licensee.  Out the door the product would go, and the licensor would get its royalty.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Thanks for the advice regarding the MTH and K-Line watchmen.   I took a long look at them online.  They both look great.  Obviously, very high quality products compared to the Lionel.

For now, since I paid less than $20 for the Lionel Watchman, I guess I'll try my El-Cheapo solution.  I think the next $90 I'll spend  will be for a used MPC locomotive.

Thanks again.

Mannyrock

After reading your reviews of the $20 gateman, I can't wait to see your reaction to a used $90 MPC locomotive

I don’t know what you mean by out of scale. They were selling full size casts of the skeleton of the real life model for the “o-scale" #145 Gateman” this year at Home Depot. Just build a crossing shack around him and put a lantern in his hand.

I don’t see the problem with the toy version. They are called toy trains.

Goodness. So many words.

Here is a post-war 145 Gateman from around 1960. It was part of the sets my brother and I had in early 60’s. Since our Dad screwed the track to a 4’x8’ sheet of plywood, and I had Super-O track, it never got very much use (so it is still in pretty good condition). Check out the price

I bought a used Gateman accessory for $3 from a junk box at a local train show. It was rough, not working and missing  parts.  I did a complete restoration job on it.  Total investment about $20 in parts and paint with about 10 hours of relaxing time spent in the train room.  Return on the investment....priceless. 

How much  of our modern "scale" stuff will still be serviceable in 90 years?

PS1 ?  PS2 5volt?  MTH ?? Legacy  ?? TMCC??

I think the 12 foot tall blue guy will have the last laugh! 

@john in western pa posted:

How much  of our modern "scale" stuff will still be serviceable in 90 years?

How many of us will still be around in 90 years for it to matter?

On the whole, General Mills quality started where the Lionel Corporation left off, and then got better each year after.

The tooling and probably parts on your Gateman is from the Post War Lionel Corporation.  You have a treasure.

Jon