TIU slow to respond to handhelds

If you tether the remote to the TIU and it works normally, you have a loose board inside one of the units.

If it still lags, try using a test track with the layout disconnected. If it works normally then there's an issue with the layout.

Remove any equipment that could mess with signal strength and keep testing strength.

Thanks. I tried the isolated track and it worked fine. Now, I wonder what could have happened, I did not do any wiring changes. I'll try leaving the right half of the z-4000 off to isolate that. Any other ideas to find why the track suddenly causes the TRI to run slow?

Usually something has changed. Problem is it can be anything. Did you get a new engine? Put something new on the rails drawing power? Maybe a lighted car?Connect something new?

You may have to disconnect or remove things one at a time and keep testing until you at least narrow down the issue.

Thanks to your help I think I am narrowing it down.

1. Both 2 remotes have been reset.

2. The TIU has been reset.

3. The layout for this purpose is one three foot test track wired direct to TIU.

The precise problem: The TIU is slow to respond to both remotes. A whistle command may cause the whistle to stick at on for ten seconds. A start up may take 5 seconds for a battery backup engine to hear the command and a shut down or move forward may also balk before responding. All engines have same problem.

So, given that it unlikely both remotes would begin to act faulty at the same time, that only leaves the TIU, as I see it. Do you agree? Is this a problem others have experienced? This, my only TIU is about 18 years old. Is it time to replace TIU?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Robert, (even though I am listed as "Atlas O Dad" i prefer Ross track

When I had this issue, it was a signal problem. That was years ago and I struggle to remember it fully. I have an older TIU that still works fine! So it may not be age as much as what it's gone thru.

Several DCS versions over the years had bugs. Those kept me on my toes and improved my troubleshooting skills! We have to narrow down the problem further.

For further help, we need more details.

What version of DCS software is in each component?

What is your power supply?

Do you have any bulb or filter attached to the track or TIU output yet?

Does the lagging go away if the units are tethered with a 4 wire phone cord?

What is your signal strength?

Thanks for the reply, I really want to get the layout going again. As I mentioned above, the layout for this test is one 3 foot section of track. This produces the same problem as on the layout, so it eliminates the layout. It is on a portable board with leads for it and it only going to channel one fixed output. This is a new problem, the layout as functioned well regarding the DCS for about 20 years.

In answer to questions, Z-4000. No bulb, but track signal a 10 mostly on layout. Again we have eliminated layout through this isolation test I believe.

I will try teathering and let you know in a couple of hours.

I have reset TIU and handhelds. I speculate the TIU is toast, but how does one know. Hate to buy another one if not necessary. It is interesting that you say that it is not so much the age of a TIU as what it has been through, I have certainly had my share of derailments and z-4000 auto power cuts over the years. I feel the solution might be right in front of me, unless the TIU is really toast.

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Could you have added a TIU to the system?

With the system powered up, press the "read"" button. If the screen only shows 1 TIU found, then this is not the problem. If the screen shows TIU 2 not found, then the DCS system is looking for that TIU that does not exist. It produces the lag in response time you are having.

Thanks for those ideas. I tethered the remote directly to the TIU with the single 3 foot test track only connected to the TIU. The TIU still takes 10 to 20 seconds to respond to handheld. I tried "read" per your good suggestion, the TIU only  has one address in use. Could the TIU be stuck on some sort of memory loop? Again, it has been reset. WE've eliminated the remotes. Your ideas appreciated.

I have ordered a new TIU to replace this 19 year old unit. Farewell my Trusty Interface Unit,

What version of DCS is in each unit?

If you use different versions, you may have this issue!

Only one TIU, version 6.10.  The handhelds don't have updates do they?

BINGO, yes the handheld revision must match the base.

UPDATE NOW!

Oh wow. How do you update a handheld?

Both handhelds say 6.10

How can you tell which version the base TIU is running?

It's in the remote menus.

Select menu: system: TIU set-up: scroll down to TIU version and select it: the TIU must be powered up!

Thanks. TIU and both handhelds all 6.10. 

@Atlas O dad posted:

Thanks. I tried the isolated track and it worked fine. Now, I wonder what could have happened, I did not do any wiring changes. I'll try leaving the right half of the z-4000 off to isolate that. Any other ideas to find why the track suddenly causes the TRI to run slow?

@Atlas O dad posted:

Thanks to your help I think I am narrowing it down.

1. Both 2 remotes have been reset.

2. The TIU has been reset.

3. The layout for this purpose is one three foot test track wired direct to TIU.

The precise problem: The TIU is slow to respond to both remotes. A whistle command may cause the whistle to stick at on for ten seconds. A start up may take 5 seconds for a battery backup engine to hear the command and a shut down or move forward may also balk before responding. All engines have same problem.

So, given that it unlikely both remotes would begin to act faulty at the same time, that only leaves the TIU, as I see it. Do you agree? Is this a problem others have experienced? This, my only TIU is about 18 years old. Is it time to replace TIU?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Robert, (even though I am listed as "Atlas O Dad" i prefer Ross track

I got confused trying to follow your posts and reverted to the very basics. Since you won't agree that anything has changed, I have to guess here. You admit that you reset both the remotes and the TIU.

If you lived close by to a friend or shop with DCS, I'd say let them test your TIU. Since you already ordered a new one, wait until it arrives and see how it does. Please report back.

I believe that the system is struggling for some reason. The remote waits for a proper response from the TIU. The TIU needs to get that from the engine(s) first. So it's hard to guess at what failed here.

Was there some event that happened like a derail or short to the system?

What prompted you to reset everything?

Did any wiring get changed?

@Atlas O dad posted:

Thanks for those ideas. I tethered the remote directly to the TIU with the single 3 foot test track only connected to the TIU. The TIU still takes 10 to 20 seconds to respond to handheld. I tried "read" per your good suggestion, the TIU only  has one address in use. Could the TIU be stuck on some sort of memory loop? Again, it has been reset. WE've eliminated the remotes. Your ideas appreciated.

To me this sounds pretty obvious that you have DCS signal issues with the TIU.  If it's not the signal strength and you've already reloaded the TIU software, at 18 years old, I'd say it's past it's prime.  Did you try all the TIU channels?

I really appreciate all your thoughts. What prompted me to reset was the delays I am experiencing in communication between the DCS/TIU/engine. Yes indeed, the system seems to be struggling, much like a slow running or looping computer.  Derails have happened, many in fact in two decades and that causes the z--4000 to remove power, and I fix derailment and power up.  No wiring changes, and the problem is the same with the three foot isolated test track. I am hoping that gunrunnerjohn is right this 18 year old TIU is tired.

Good idea about testing the TIU elsewhere but I am a full day round trip with ferry rides from support as we live in a small town. Ill get back to you when the new TIU is here. There is nothing left to try I think.

So that you don't do damage to your new TIU, I would add some protection between the TIU and the Z4000. I think the breakers on the Z4000 don't trip as fast as they should.

You can fry electronics on a simple derail. I have simple 10 amp auto blade fuses between the 2, on every TIU channel input. Maybe not the best, but it helps.

There's plenty of posts here about adding protection. GRJ and others can help.

Thanks, I will do that. As a practical matter for my participation in the Forum, when searching for say "TIU fused protection" do I go in under "MTH Forum - General Topics?  When I go there I do not see a search engine for topics. I end up scrolling. I hate to start a new thread, but don't seem to be able to avoid it often. Also, should I start all topics under MTH since that is what I run? I

Use the Advanced Search in the blue bar at the top og the page and check Forums, then ad the search words.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

So that you don't do damage to your new TIU, I would add some protection between the TIU and the Z4000. I think the breakers on the Z4000 don't trip as fast as they should.

I have seen this often and maybe it's because the Z-4000 transformer has 12 amp breakers. If you use the Z-4000 with the side receiver, the transformer will drop to zero output over 9 amps.

The Z-4000 has fold-back current limiting that acts quite quickly.  Mine happens to be buried in a pile of train stuff right now, but in the past I've tested the overload capability and the response has been very quick.  The external circuit breaker should rarely trip on the Z-4000, normally the fold-back current limiting should kick in and light the overload light first.

Good to know, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

In conclusion, the new TIU arrived from Pat's Trains in the usual fast shipping time of two days across country.

I replaced the old TIU and added every engine into the handhelds separately on a test track. All came up immediately and TIU worked flawlessly for all ten engines. Then I attached the layout. All continues to work perfectly. I think Gunrunnerjohn was right that the 18 year old TIU was past prime. Thanks to all for your  thoughts during this journey. One final thought, would it be worth it to send the old TIU in for repair, or just consider it done?

I'd probably consider replacing the transceiver board on the old TIU, that would be a worthwhile test.  I have a couple of those if you want to give that a go.

That would be great. I can't think of a down side. What is the best way to communicate about that outside the forum?

Send an email to my profile email address.   Just click on the user profile.

Derailments happen. I have a PSX1-AC unit to protect each throttle. I also added the optional piezo alarm to notify me when a short has occurred. Contact Tonystrains.com to better understand what these units have to offer.