Traction tires, nay or yea

AGREED! Traction tires are Satan's spawn. They're not needed in any other scale, and with steam, it's awesme to see (and try to control) the wheel slip when starting!

At least real steamers have sand to help with the traction.  I know traction tires are a PITA, but I see them as a necessary evil in order to run longer trains.

 

Andy

Traction tires need to be replaced by better technology. Magnetraction is a great alternative but DC can motors run better than AC motors and they are maintenance free. Since today's engines already have circuit boards, maybe they can install an eddy current drive or a regen drive to magnetize the drive wheels. 

I'd rather see 'em go bye-bye, but since learning to use silicon instead (thanks to this forum) I can put up with the idea.

Well first - if the "engine is slipping" by which one means the wheels are spinning, more power won't help, will it?  Just make more spin.  More weight will, however, and where possible I always add more weight to the loco if it spins its wheels.

 

When traction tires come loose or off, I do usually take them off - on big, multi-wheel locos like Y6Bs and such.  They have enough weight, and wheels, they don't seem to need them.  On smaller stuff - BEEPS and 'Streets vehicles, they need the traction, so I like to have one or two traction tires, and prefer to use something like Bullfrog snot to either replace them when they fail, or apply to at least one wheel if they have none (if have found that when well applied it seems to give slightly more traction than an equivalent number of traction tires). 

You can do what the big boys do and bunch the slack to get the train rolling. But yes, it is important to have a properly-weighted engine.

Question for Lee: I never heard of Bullfrog snot until now. Googled it and found the description for it. How long will it last under normal circumstance, maybe pulling 12 cars? Is it easy to apply to the drive wheel?

out of 22 steamers, olny 2 are modern with tires. I'd just as soon not have them.

My HO locos (with all wheels powered) pull long trains on steep grades with no traction tires because I add weight. We can do the same in O-gauge.

 

When this subject came up before, one of the explanations for traction tires was that it gives the pulling performance without heavy weight that would increase shipping and handling expenses for manufacturers and retailers. More weight in a package also increases the risk for damage if packages are dropped or handled roughly.

 

My preference for any model locomotive is all wheels/drivers powered and heavy weight for traction AND better electrical pickup, NO traction tires. Magnetraction is great too, but more expensive for more premium locos, and it only works well on conventional steel track with the running rails connected by steel ties.

I would say that traction tires are sometimes needed in N and smaller scales, especially steamers, because really small scale locos often don't have enough space for adequate weight. But we really DON'T need traction tires in O-gauge!

This would be a great poll question.

My vote on traction tires, sir, is a resounding NAY!

I do not like them.  I wish they would go away.

I like them OK but not well enough to keep replacing them on problematic engines.  I have heard enough negatives about Frog Snot not to have tried it.  I instead am a proponent of replacing traction tires with Silicone Sealant.

.....

Dennis

Never liked them, never will.

 

Many thanks,

 

Billy C

Real engines use sand to gain traction, and careful operation of the throttle.  Obviously, this is a little hard to replicate on a model.  For traction tires, On a small locomotive, I don't think that they help more than they cause fault.  With the rubber on the rails, it takes up valuable space that could be use for electrical contact.  On a huge locomotive with many wheels, perhaps one or two might be of use for grades.

 

BTW if you pull enough cars to strain a traction tire, the locomotive is being strained too.  A switcher wasn't meant to pull a full train, so why does it need the extra traction?

 

Therefore I say nay to both traction tires and undersized power.

Every single one of my locomotives, probably around 40 of them, have traction tires.  I really don't have any of the problems that I hear about on this forum.  My layout has a lot of grades, some approaching 2% or more and my train lengths would be so limited without those tires that I wouldn't be very happy.

 

When they are very old or simply worn out, I just replace them.  And for  replacements, I prefer those from Weaver.  They have a tread pattern on the surface of the tire that seems to allow the tire to move or shift just a fraction of an inch and it prevents them from "bunching up" which is what I believe most lost tires are caused by.

 

I can't understand how you fellows have all the problems with tires.  Looking back, I believe it's been most of a year since I replaced any traction tire and I do run my trains quite a bit.  To me they're the best thing since they invented sliced bread!

 

Paul Fischer

I prefer engines without traction tires. As others have mentioned, it helps keep a certain sense of proportion between the size of the locomotive and the length of the train. Without traction tires, your operations gain a real-world component: what is the tonnage rating for engine x on route y?

 

Also, there is nothing worse than having a 6-axle diesel die at a crossover because it has only 4 wheels with metal touching the rail, and somehow all of them have landed on an insulated section simultaneously .

 

Who has not seen that video of the 611 losing its footing on Saluda? Can't simulate that with traction tires! What would be really nice: sound that is synchronized with the driver rotation, so you can hear the wheel slip, too. (Maybe some engine somewhere has this, but none of mine do).

They are like everything else...when new they are fine...as time and distance go by they have their problems.

 

When they come off or get beat up I remove them all from the engine. I then run the engine with the typical amount of cars it usually pulls and run up a grade. If it works then I don't put the traction tires back on. If it doesn'y I try a few weights and if still no go I put on mew tires.

Does Williams by Bachman use traction tires on their diesels.

I have two ABA F3 sets from the eighties that do not have traction tires and pull fairly well. About 20 cars on 2% grades. Two engines are powered and the B unit has the sound system.

Traction tires work.  So does magne-traction.  Whatever it takes, no objections.

 

Pete

Traction tires seem like a crutch for a bad design. A model train should emulate the real thing as much as possible.

 

When the tires go bad I replace them with nothing, or I make a silicon tire like Dennis has described in previous posts.

 

I agree that having as much electrical contact as possible is important in the real world of our layouts.

All my MTH engines will run the sound and smoke up with the slippage, never fails.

I have Traction tires on all my engines and do not have problems with them. I do agree weight is the proper solution. I have added weight to old engines that slipped too muchwith good effect.

And I bunch the slack on a long consist even with traction tires as I find I pop fewer couplers that way.

Magnetraction will not work on the best looking track, thus I discount it.

I can't speak to the power issue on the Diesels, I don't run any.

But magne-traction does work, and diesels do pull... right?

 

Pete

The solution to that problem is easy for your diesel locomotives.

Remove the slotted wheels and replace them with solidmetal  wheels.

The first thing I would like to say is that the only thing Magnetraction is good for is to keep your engine on the track through a fast turn. It offers very little pulling power pluss, what you gain in traction you lose in overcoming magnetic drag.

 

Bull Frog Snot is a great product, but for traction tire replacment I am a convert to the "Dennis technique" of replacing the tire with silicone sealant. The BFS is very tough stuff, but it needs to be applied in thin layers. This could take quite a bit of time.

That said, I have used Bull Frog on many slipping problems with great success. I have automatic doors that I built that use a drive string assembly and slippage was a big problem until I applied a little SNOT on the string surface and bingo, works perfect.

I also have a bascule bridge that I built and I used a pully on a reduction gear shaft assembly to drive it per the same type of string and again a little Bull Frog Snot and it works perfect every time.

 

I hade an MTH steamer throw a tire so I used the above "Dennis Technique" of applying Silicone Sealant in the tire grove. It took a little work getting use to not making a mess on the wheel sets but that works better then anything else I ever tried. But, a thin coat of BFS over the silacone gives it a very tough surface and still pulls like crazy.

Just a note of caution that when you use the BFS make sure that you don't cement joints together that need to move. Like I said the stuff is tough.

 

If all of the above fails to spark your interest and you wont to stay with your traction tires try a little supper glue under the tire. Lay the engine up side down in  a soft cradel, using a small flat screw driver to lift the tire slightly and apply Supper glue under tire letting it run down and around the tire grove. Before the glue sets run the engine wheels up and smooth said tire with the flat screw driver.

 

It is in MHO one should never run their trains with no tire in the grove because it can damage your tracks rail tops over tme, much the same way that Supper O center rail use to cut into your pick-up rollers.

 

Have Fun.

I think traction tires are great. Without them my trains would not be reliable pullers.

Got to have traction tires to run trains on my layout. I tried running without traction tires and it was unacceptable.

 

I am going to try running silicone instead of traction tires. Bull Frog Snot is ridiculously too expensive, so that's not an option.

Traction tires can go right in the trash can, I have rewheeled engines to get rid of them.  One must be carefull if adding weigh to any engine, to much will put the motor in jeopardy.  You should still be able to slip the wheels at full power after adding extra weight.  AC motors are more effecient than DC, espicaly brushless ones.  Look at modern diesels on real railroads, most all are going with AC traction.  You can electronicly control AC motors easier.  Lionel thought about this with the original Oddsey system that never came to production.  A 9 pole brushless motor controled electronicly.  Marklin does this with their C-sine drive in HO scale.   Now if you have non magnetic track, magnetraction does you no good, so its either extra weight or multi engine lashups, or traction tires.  If your pulling so many cars you need a traction tire, then in all reality your overloading the locomotive, espicaly if its a diecast steam engine.  We just normaly dont do that long enough to really harm them.  If it was running that way for many hours a day, then it would be a huge problem with burnt motors, stripped gears and worn out side rods.  To each his own, if it works for you, dont change it.  For me its tubular track with extra ties, magnetration or none at all on my pre 1950 engines and they will pull more cars than I own right now.  And I have pulled 30-40 car trains, mixed Lionel MPC/LTI/Postwar and Kline with a 763 grey semi-scale hudson, no traction tire, no magnetraction up and down 2% grades on a huge floor layout without any issues!  Now she slipped a bit getting it rolling, but then so did the real engines.  Once rolling, no problems.  You just worked the throttle like a real engine to get them all rolling.  Shove backwards first to bunch the slack, giving the engine a bit of a running start.  Watch some old movie film of hoggers getting heavy tonage moving in the days of steam with a M1a PRR Mountain type.  Took several tries doing this due to wet rail, curvature and gradient.

Great thread.  My Kline tank loco keeps throwing a tire and I have been reluctant to simply cut off the offending piece.  Given my train length is generally short and this loco is sufficiently weighted, it is gone tonight. 

hello guys and gals.........

 

I am surprised here that most do not like traction tires on their steamers.  I have no problem putting on traction tires as it does need 3 hands to get them on LOL.  I like traction tires as they are not that bad but do get the job done when pulling long trains.  Last week my new sunset 3 rd S.F. 2-10-4 had traction tire rot so took me about 10 mins putting on new spares( taking my time,no hurry).  So plenty of YEAs.......

 

the woman who loves the S.F.#5011

Tiffany

I have a 5 year old grandson that I built a lionel layout for.   His favorite loco is a GP20 with traction tires that I painted Conrail.   They are bit PITA!!!   They are always coming loose and then jamming between the wheel and sideframe.  

 

Little boys like to handle the stuff, and he will sometimes try to move it without power if it stalls or just because and I am sure that contributes.    But the trains are supposed to be kids toys and stand up to kid use.   If the kid can't handle the train, it does not work.  

 

Based on that, I think traction tires are a major failure.

 

Tell it to the Lionel D-27 "Disappearing Train" layout, built specifically to demonstrate the power of MagneTraction:

 

http://www.agtta.com/anniversary/anniversary.html

 

HTH.

 

Pete

I have found that engines running on round top track such as tubular don't seem to have very many problems with losing traction tires.

 

My layout and my club's layout uses Atlas track.  Almost all of my engines including new ones lose one or more traction tires after a short run around the layouts.  I believe that the this is caused by the flat top rail and the sharp edge where the top meets the vertical side of the rail.  

 

I operate the heavier diecast engines without traction tires.  I have found that most diecast engines can pull all the cars that my layout can handle without a problem.

 

Plastic body diesels, however, often won't pull even a modest size train without tires.  I tried the silicone sealant solution with success.  I did find that the sealant eventually came off on the Atlas track just like the traction tires came off.  The sealant just lasted longer.  I also fond that the sealant was a bit difficult to apply and it sometimes dried in lumps.

 

One day I was trying to remove some liquid electrical tape from an engine's wheels.  I had attempted to insulate the wheels with the tape.  The tape was almost impossible to remove even using a dremel with a wire brush.

 

I decided to try liquid electrical tape as a traction tire.  It has worked great.  It goes on easier and smoother than silicone sealant.  I use a small paint brush to apply it in the grove as the wheel rotates.  You can apply a fairly thick coat.  I let it dry overnight.  I haven't any problems with it coming off so far.  It provides excellent traction.  

 

I started this experiment with several engines a couple of months ago.  I think I will really know if this works in about six months.

 

I would like the hear about the results if anyone else tries liquid electrical tape for traction tires.

 

Joe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You spoke of your method in an earlier discussion that I was also involved in discussing my use of silicone sealant.  I agree the sealant, when not a new tube is problematic in that it is less viscous after it has been opened and laid around a long time.  In the case where I had to redo one of my engines, the silicone had lasted 2 years and seven months as I recall.  I would like to try your method too, but alas I have a new tube of silicone, heat resistant type, that is red, and I want to try that too.

.....

Dennis

The other thing I have against traction tires is electrical pick-up, at least with some of the older Williams SD-45's(pre-Bachmann). They have traction tires and plastic wheels for the third set of unpowered wheels in the truck assembly, and when going over switches or insulated track sections the power cuts out. So I upgraded one of my Williams to metal wheels for the unpowered set of wheels instead of plastic and that solved some of the electrical problems with it. Another thing that I did was to add an electrical harness between the two SD-45's so that both can share power pick-up from the track.

With MTH I have replaced at least one set of traction tires on my Reading T-1 steam engine, that was a real pain.

Over all I don't care too much for traction tires.

 

Lee Fritz

I use nothing but Bull Frog Snot with great results.

 

...keep the rails polished...

For those that run with traction tires removed (or never replaced), has there been any problems with the groove in the wheel when crossing switches/turnouts?

 

I finally got my 4-6-0 running (it uses a Weaver/Samhongsa chassis), but the first thing I noticed was the old, dried out tires were coming off.  I removed all 4 tires and ran it slowly around the layout and it seemed to do OK, but I don't know how it'll do at a higher speed.  I measured the groove diameter and it was 35.6mm, probably need a 35mm tire, but can't find any.  The groove is not very deep, maybe .25mm or about .010" deep (the tire measured .5mm thick).

 

That's a fairly small depth, but enough to be seen, maybe not enough to worry about, especially at the fairly slow speeds I run my trains.

OH...has anybody tried heat shrink tubing???  It appears to be about the same thickness.  The hard part would be cutting a tire off straight enough so as not to have a bunch of trimming to do.  A simple match held near it will shrink it down to the wheel.  Don't know how well it would hold up though.