I understand that this is the 2 rail forum. What I'm getting at is that while I personally made compromises to go up in size from N scale to O scale, not everyone else would necessarily want to make the compromises I made to get a larger size. I personally don't want an O-31 capable Big Boy as I personally don't like the way they look going around curves that sharp. I do love that engine though and love large articulated engine in general. I'm willing to not have any though to get the look I desire. Clearly some people don't mind though.
Why does O scale have to be relegated to 2 rail vs 3 rail, real vs toy when other scales that are exclusively 2 rail do make compromises yet don't add an extra rail to do it? That's what I'm getting at. 2 rail is holding itself back by not attracting people who don't have room for large curves yet still want to run larger engines. I may not be one of them and you may not be one of them but that's not the point. Again, my personal preferences don't matter. There clearly are people who don't like a 3rd rail who do want tighter curves and larger engines and 2 rail can't accommodate them. It should. Other scales make these concessions.
The point that I'm trying to make has nothing to do with what I personally want. There are people that want to be in 2 rail for the realism and only want it to look convincing doing it. Nothing wrong with that. There are people in 3 rail because they don't care about a center rail and don't care if curves are tighter. Nothing wrong with that. But there are people in 3 rail that only do so because they can't get what they want in 2 rail, namely larger engines that can turn tighter, realistic or not. That's what is lacking. I'm not one of them but that's not the point. If N or HO scales can offer starter sets with over sized rail and tighter curves then why can't 2 rail O? Why does it have to be 2 vs 3 rails? It doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by Simon Winter:
There is a relatively simple answer (I think). Take one of your 3 rail engines and convert it to RC rechargeable battery power. You can then toss the center rail and keep all the 3 rail attributes you like....or not. Power is right there on board, you don't really need any rails, though that would likely be a bit messy.
That is actually a very logical and reasonable solution. It may or may not be feasible today but at some point probably in the near future radio control is going to be very easy. No need to worry about track power or even insulating wheels. That would be a very good way for companies and the aftermarket to ultimately progress. People could run large flange wheels on Gargraves 2 rail track or Ross switches with the center rail removed. Then 3 rail merely is limited to those who just so happen to like it and there's nothing wrong with that if they do. An economical radio retrofit would be a great item to bring to market.
A friend of mine has a 2 rail layout that is somewhere around 40 X 80 feet and he uses RC exclusively, and he has numerous locomotives and runs long trains.
Fred,
I believe one of the issues with 8 and 10 coupled 2 rail steam power on smaller radius curves in 2 rail is the potential for unflanged drivers to drop off the rails on to the ties, particularly on turnouts. While some locomotives may have side rod configurations that would prevent this, others have configurations that, combined with sprung drivers, would cause this.
Fred,
I believe one of the issues with 8 and 10 coupled 2 rail steam power on smaller radius curves in 2 rail is the potential for unflanged drivers to drop off the rails on to the ties, particularly on turnouts. While some locomotives may have side rod configurations that would prevent this, others have configurations that, combined with sprung drivers, would cause this.
Of course that depends on the length of engine and how sharp of a curve. If radio control was easy, people in 3 rail could always just remove the pickup rollers and the center rail and be done with it. That would solve their issues pretty well.
The only reason I went three rail is because of SPACE. I can run two rail MTH diesels on three rail track but if I want to run a large steamer I can run it three rail on curves no larger than O72 if I went 2 rail and wanted to run large 2 rail steamers I would have to build massive curves which of course look better but is not always feasible...
hope that makes sense
hope that makes sense
Simon and Fred have the answer. Ed Reutling offered it elsewhere. If you like everything about three rail scale except the center rail, then battery/RCA is your answer today, and it will shortly be an available option straight from the toy train suppliers.
If you like today's 2-rail, yet want 027 curves, stick to smaller locomotives and cars.
Or I suppose you could continue to push for some other alternative - insulated 3-rail equipment, so you could have the option? I have a Hudson that came that way from MTH, although now it is strictly 2- rail.
If you like today's 2-rail, yet want 027 curves, stick to smaller locomotives and cars.
Or I suppose you could continue to push for some other alternative - insulated 3-rail equipment, so you could have the option? I have a Hudson that came that way from MTH, although now it is strictly 2- rail.
Michael,
I saw this layout on Tracks Ahead this past weekend. Very nicely done!
I saw this layout on Tracks Ahead this past weekend. Very nicely done!
quote:Originally posted by pitogo:
chem check out this layout not sure how close it is to you but it's in the same state http://www.chi-townunionstation.org/
quote:Originally posted by willbacker45:
The only reason I went three rail is because of SPACE. I can run two rail MTH diesels on three rail track but if I want to run a large steamer I can run it three rail on curves no larger than O72 if I went 2 rail and wanted to run large 2 rail steamers I would have to build massive curves which of course look better but is not always feasible...
hope that makes sense
Will,
Certainly it makes sense. You do what you can do with what you have. It's the old story you can't put 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound box. If you are happy with what you are doing, far be it from me to say you're wrong even though I might personally have opted for 2 rail and smaller steamers. The only point I was trying to make is IF you don't like the middle rail, but still want the tight curves of three rail, RC battery Power looks like a good option to me, and it is here today if you want it. I have no windmills to joust at, so do your own thing!
Simon
quote:Originally posted by fredswain:
For me the track is the railroad. The trains are just what run on it.
Wow, I like this!!
I think many three railers wish they had laid wider radius curves. Seems like small curves are more available and people just grab them.
If you were going to run larger 3 rail curves and like better detailing on your equipment, you may find that you'll enjoy that detailing with your track as well.
There are many great 3 rail layouts. I just truely prefer the overall apearance of two rails. Joe
quote:Originally posted by bob2:
Or I suppose you could continue to push for some other alternative - insulated 3-rail equipment, so you could have the option? I have a Hudson that came that way from MTH, although now it is strictly 2- rail.
Thats true some MTH locomotives have insulated three rail wheels and gargraves and Ross can make track without the center rail
Clem
quote:Originally posted by Clem:quote:Originally posted by bob2:
Or I suppose you could continue to push for some other alternative - insulated 3-rail equipment, so you could have the option? I have a Hudson that came that way from MTH, although now it is strictly 2- rail.
Thats true some MTH locomotives have insulated three rail wheels and gargraves and Ross can make track without the center rail
Clem
My hi-rail wheeled MTH ATSF Hudson runs on Atlas Code 148 without hitting the ties or spike heads (flanges are slightly smaller) but it doesn't like 2-rail turnouts because of the spacing of the guard rails. I have a Blue Goose on order with scale wheels because I had received very credible test results indicating that it will negotiate 36" radius curves. Mike Pitogo actually ran a scale-wheeled Big Boy on 36" radius for laughs and giggles. On steam, you have to look at the driver size and wheelbase, the swing on the pilot truck with respect to the cylinders, the swing of the trailing truck, and the tender truck wheel arrangement very carefully.
I can't comment on the switch to O scale 2 rail, for I have never modeled in 2 rail O scale. (Except for a short experiement in On30.)
HOWEVER... one thing I noticed about the steam engines in that nice video above: No sound. No smoke.
If these two elements are important to your enjoyment of today's model trains... well... that's something to think about.
Now, I CAN relate to what you're experiencing in regards to the center rail. In my case (in the past), trying to move closer to scale with my 3 rail ended up with me becoming so dissastisfied with the center rail, that I went with scale S (not Hi Rail) to get my "scale" fix. Noticeably larger than the HO I left, but not as big as O scale 2 rail.
I am just now beginning to dabble with 3 rail again, albeit staying with traditional trains. It seems as long as I keep the trains traditional, I'm okay with the center rail. ??
HOWEVER, I will say this concerning 3 rail: Given the nice steam engines that are available, it COULD be tempting to take a "Hi Rail" (i.e. accept the large couplers/flanges) approach and have a 3 rail Hi Rail layout that's based in the steam days. The sound and smoke effects found in most of today's steam engines can truly be impressive.
Andre
HOWEVER... one thing I noticed about the steam engines in that nice video above: No sound. No smoke.
If these two elements are important to your enjoyment of today's model trains... well... that's something to think about.
Now, I CAN relate to what you're experiencing in regards to the center rail. In my case (in the past), trying to move closer to scale with my 3 rail ended up with me becoming so dissastisfied with the center rail, that I went with scale S (not Hi Rail) to get my "scale" fix. Noticeably larger than the HO I left, but not as big as O scale 2 rail.
I am just now beginning to dabble with 3 rail again, albeit staying with traditional trains. It seems as long as I keep the trains traditional, I'm okay with the center rail. ??
HOWEVER, I will say this concerning 3 rail: Given the nice steam engines that are available, it COULD be tempting to take a "Hi Rail" (i.e. accept the large couplers/flanges) approach and have a 3 rail Hi Rail layout that's based in the steam days. The sound and smoke effects found in most of today's steam engines can truly be impressive.
Andre
quote:Originally posted by anzani racer:quote:
HOWEVER... one thing I noticed about the steam engines in that nice video above: No sound. No smoke.
If these two elements are important to your enjoyment of today's model trains... well... that's something to think about.
is this true no smoke? why wouldn't someone just add it?...rob
Sunset has some very nice engine and I was privileged to buy one some time ago. It mattered not to me at the time why it had no smoke or sound. It will cost more money to so equip the engine for DCC and Sound if it is a suitable candidate.
I run old school DC and can do DCC with just two wires the way I engineer my wiring.
To me personally, smoke is a health issue and unfortunately I must pass on that option. I just finished removing the smoke unit from the I-12 caboose for example to make room for a stack of batteries to generate the required power for the markers and interior light for example.
I am aware that there are DCC boards where you can simply screw in the motor wires and the speaker wires as well as the pick up wires and be off and running. However, I choose to slowly and surely work through starting from the very basics in which I was taught in HO as a kid long ago with my first train set one Christmas.
(That engine's motor brushes finally failed after about 30 years of service. Amazing.)
quote:Originally posted by anzani racer:
is this true no smoke? why wouldn't someone just add it?...rob
Smoke is a nice feature but really in the end it's not all its cracked up to be...it's messy and leaves a residue over everything.
"what are the pit falls?"
Although I'm still a 3 railer, and also HO, I have considered O scale (2 rail), but I get the impression that the era I enjoy modeling (modern, post 80's) is a bit sparse in availability. It seems as though earlier era's, especially steam era, have more choices. I also get the impression that modern (post 80's) 2 rail O might involve a lot of customization, meaning custom painting, decaling etc....to get what you need. At this particular point In my journey I do not see myself ready for that. I do admire those who have the time, talent and vision who have done so. I really enjoy seeing the work that makes you go "wow".
I enjoy seeing what others have accomplished, That's probably what motivates all of us. It is indeed a great hobby!
But....maybe one day.....I'll.....
Although I'm still a 3 railer, and also HO, I have considered O scale (2 rail), but I get the impression that the era I enjoy modeling (modern, post 80's) is a bit sparse in availability. It seems as though earlier era's, especially steam era, have more choices. I also get the impression that modern (post 80's) 2 rail O might involve a lot of customization, meaning custom painting, decaling etc....to get what you need. At this particular point In my journey I do not see myself ready for that. I do admire those who have the time, talent and vision who have done so. I really enjoy seeing the work that makes you go "wow".
I enjoy seeing what others have accomplished, That's probably what motivates all of us. It is indeed a great hobby!
But....maybe one day.....I'll.....
David, if you are happy with the offerings in 03R then all you need to do is to do is swap out the wheels and couplers.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Tee:
David, if you are happy with the offerings in 03R then all you need to do is to do is swap out the wheels and couplers.
I am working on a Hot Metal Car from MTH, I bought MTH trucks and come to find out the holes are not the same. So what I did is use the original scale trucks and the 2R wheels and rebuild the spring suspension before installing them.
The electrical pickup work will come next.
I am aware of and understand the need to convert, however with all the differences versus a standard in HO it's will require some work to convert. The big challenges will be a 2 or three car set of slags, I will have to learn how to convert those as well.
I have decided to dabble a bit in 2 rail for the look. I plan no ovals as my under the layout layout does not have just. Just back and forth and one switch to get my feet wet. I need to find a good beginners book.
On the topic of battery power, there was a vendor at O Scale West a couple of years back that had the CVP Airwire wireless system installed in a medium sized O scale engine/tender. The battery pack and controls were in the tender.
This seems to be well a well proven system and technology. And batteries continue to get better. Check out the CVP website but I think their battery pack is rated at 4 ampere hours and will fit inside medium to large O scale tenders. That would allow an engine with a modern can motor and a moderate consist drawing around 4 amps to run about an hour. I seldom run one engine for that length of time.
An option. A way to get rid of the center rail, get rid of running all that wire and get rid of cleaning track and wheels. Not for everybody for sure. But, an option.
Austin Bill
This seems to be well a well proven system and technology. And batteries continue to get better. Check out the CVP website but I think their battery pack is rated at 4 ampere hours and will fit inside medium to large O scale tenders. That would allow an engine with a modern can motor and a moderate consist drawing around 4 amps to run about an hour. I seldom run one engine for that length of time.
An option. A way to get rid of the center rail, get rid of running all that wire and get rid of cleaning track and wheels. Not for everybody for sure. But, an option.
Austin Bill
Not having to clean track or wire it is the biggest advantage that I personally see to going with radio control. The nice thing about the Airwire system is that is has full DCC capability. It's not some goofy proprietary system. The downside currently is the price per decoder/receiver and battery size. It is getting better all the time though and will be a very viable choice in the near future.
There are a few options for charging. One is to replace the battery. Another is to install a charging port on the engine. The last option which has been done is to provide a powered section of track that charges the battery when the engine is parked on it. This would be a neat feature on roundhouse tracks and in many ways would make it a bit more realistic. Your engine needs to go to be "serviced" in the roundhouse. It gets parked and stays there while being charged. I think that would be a neat feature.
There are a few options for charging. One is to replace the battery. Another is to install a charging port on the engine. The last option which has been done is to provide a powered section of track that charges the battery when the engine is parked on it. This would be a neat feature on roundhouse tracks and in many ways would make it a bit more realistic. Your engine needs to go to be "serviced" in the roundhouse. It gets parked and stays there while being charged. I think that would be a neat feature.
Fred,
How big a battery are you thinking of?
Ed Reutling
How big a battery are you thinking of?
Ed Reutling
We are not talking some kind of a Die Hard monster. Ed R has one packed away & running in a little 0-4-0 nothing.
IME, the time spent fabricating benchwork for the average layout runs similar to the hours spent running & connecting the proper wiring. Plus the cost of rolls of different color wire.
IME, the time spent fabricating benchwork for the average layout runs similar to the hours spent running & connecting the proper wiring. Plus the cost of rolls of different color wire.
I've always hated wiring. It's my least favorite part. Building benchwork, hand laying track, and even using individual tie plates and spikes is endlessly more enjoyable for me than wiring up even a piece of flextrack. Constant wheel cleaning is necessary for good electrical conductivity too. No more insulated sections or polarity reversing at frogs. Without wiring things get pretty simple. If there is a way to get rid of wiring then I'm all for it. Saying that I'll probably cave in and still use track power and DCC when I start my new layout this year since I already have DCC but I definitely see the advantages of battery power.
I didn't know you could get a powerful enough battery into something as small as an 0-4-0. That's good to know.
I didn't know you could get a powerful enough battery into something as small as an 0-4-0. That's good to know.
There was some discussion in the local group recently about a powerful rechargeable battery being used by some 0 narrow gaugers. It was about the size of a remote car lock device for a key chain.
From the CVP website:
Lithium Battery Pack And Smart Charger
CVP's Recommended AIRWIRE™ Battery for All Installations
We searched high and low for a suitable battery along with a matching charger at an affordable price. While you are not required to use our recommended battery pack and charger, the ones we recommend and sell offer the best compromise among many factors such as safety, power, size, weight, voltage, motor noise and lifetime.
Lithium-Ion Chemistry - Our battery pack is designed and manufactured by the Li-ion battery experts at Tenergy Corporation. Li-ion offers high energy density, light weight and easy charging. Lithium batteries do not suffer from the memory effect and have a longer storage life than NiMH.
14.8V at 4400mA-hr - This voltage is the best option for long range radio operation. Higher voltage causes much more interference to be generated by locomotive motors which can impair distant radio operation.
Fully Protected - The battery pack includes an internal controller that prevents the battery pack from being over charge and over discharge which prolongs the battery lifetime.
Easy Connection - A pair of 6 inch wires offer easy connection to terminal strips or connectors. Drop-In™ decoders include a matching connector for simple plug in to the Drop-In decoder.
Small Size - The battery dimensions are 2.7” x 2.8” x 1.4”. It weighs about 12 ounces.
Austin Bill
Lithium Battery Pack And Smart Charger
CVP's Recommended AIRWIRE™ Battery for All Installations
We searched high and low for a suitable battery along with a matching charger at an affordable price. While you are not required to use our recommended battery pack and charger, the ones we recommend and sell offer the best compromise among many factors such as safety, power, size, weight, voltage, motor noise and lifetime.
Lithium-Ion Chemistry - Our battery pack is designed and manufactured by the Li-ion battery experts at Tenergy Corporation. Li-ion offers high energy density, light weight and easy charging. Lithium batteries do not suffer from the memory effect and have a longer storage life than NiMH.
14.8V at 4400mA-hr - This voltage is the best option for long range radio operation. Higher voltage causes much more interference to be generated by locomotive motors which can impair distant radio operation.
Fully Protected - The battery pack includes an internal controller that prevents the battery pack from being over charge and over discharge which prolongs the battery lifetime.
Easy Connection - A pair of 6 inch wires offer easy connection to terminal strips or connectors. Drop-In™ decoders include a matching connector for simple plug in to the Drop-In decoder.
Small Size - The battery dimensions are 2.7” x 2.8” x 1.4”. It weighs about 12 ounces.
Austin Bill
Did I hear "there's gonna be a revolution . . ."
