Unfamiliar with MTH Products, Recommendation Please

The MTH Railking products are made to operate on 031 but always read the description, just in case an item might not be 031.  As far as detailing, they will be better than many postwar engines but not super detailed.

You can expect it will pull , at least, as many cars as your 671/681.  Postwar cars at like dragging a brick around.  If you are using modern cars it will pull even more.  My postwar 2343 only pulled about 8 postwar cars but, with modern cars, it has no trouble with 20 car trains.

There are many Santa Fe locomotives out there at known hobby suppliers, you will just have to search.

This is the Premier GP60 / ps3

I've had it for about 3 years and I run it on my layout which has a decent amount of O31 curves along with ten O31 Realtrax switches.  A great deal of the Premier diesels are made to run on O31 curves.

It's been reliable and has run with 20 cars in the layout which has an over and under line with three bridges. I don't know how many cars would be it's maximum amount especially on a layout that doesn't have inclines.

Further to Danr’s comment Railking product numbers are prefaced by the number 30-xxxxx, whereas MTH’s Premier line engines (which usually require curves greater than 031) are prefaced by 20-xxxxx.

Good Luck finding an engine!

Thanks to all for the comments.  The engine I am interested in is prefaced by a 20-, so that's good.  I need to run this by the boss since my train spending is a bit over budget at this point.

Just understand that by now there are at least three generations of electronics in MTH loco's and they are not interchangeable.

"Just understand that by now there are at least three generations of electronics in MTH loco's and they are not interchangeable."

Since the inquiry is from someone running postwar Lionel, I'm assuming he/she wants something that will run in conventional mode.  All  PS1, PS2 and PS3 locos are largely interchangeable for this purpose, although, as pointed out, the internal electronics and their peculiarities are varied.  Unless I misunderstand something important here .

If it must be MTH and you're not familiar on how the required battery is used/needed only buy one that has PS3 electronics in it. These Do Not require the battery.

MTH locomotives are reliable and a great value. The steam engines have great smoke units. The first two generations of MTH engines Protosounds, and Protosounds 2 require a batter, either an 8.4 voult Nickel Metal Hydride rechargeable battery or in the later Protosounds 2 units a 3.2 volt battery. However, there is a product called BCR which cost about $25.00 This replaces the standard batteries and makes the earlier engines equivalent to the Protsounds 3 engines in that respect. So, bottom line is that the battery issue is no issue at all and that many Lionel locomotives suggest a battery as well if you run conventionally.

Original Protosound (a/k/a PS-1) can only be operated with a transformer, while PS-2 and PS-3 can operate conventionally or with DCS command control - this applies to both Railking and Premier.  Installing a BCR in each PS-1 or PS-2 engine is highly recommended.  A PS-1 engine should sell for at least $250-300 less than a comparable PS-2 or PS-3 due to the lack of command control.  Since you run conventionally, PS-1 engines can be a great value as long as the board hasn't been fried.   

@texgeekboy posted:

Thanks to all for the comments.  The engine I am interested in is prefaced by a 20-, so that's good.  I need to run this by the boss since my train spending is a bit over budget at this point.

It does get expensive but I make sure Judy has her hobbies covered also.   Good luck.

Busy day today and couldn't get back here.  Thanks for the comments.  The engine I listed says it has ProtoSound 3.  I read the replies about batteries.  I'm not familiar with batteries in engines.  Is it trickier than putting one in and replacing it when it's worn out?  Lastly, I have no other electronics other than a ZW transformer and I'm basically a 60s era Lionel guy.  I just read up on DCC, and it sounds neat.  I'm looking forward to new tech.

@texgeekboy posted:

Busy day today and couldn't get back here.  Thanks for the comments.  The engine I listed says it has ProtoSound 3.  I read the replies about batteries.  I'm not familiar with batteries in engines.  Is it trickier than putting one in and replacing it when it's worn out?  Lastly, I have no other electronics other than a ZW transformer and I'm basically a 60s era Lionel guy.  I just read up on DCC, and it sounds neat.  I'm looking forward to new tech.

You don't want to get to the point where the battery dies. Replacing them can be tricky - taking the shell off is harder on some engines than others, and the battery can be buried.  On PS-1 and PS-2 engines, get a BCR for each engine - about $20-25 each (buy direct from the manufacturer and get a discount by buying 10 at a time) - do it once and you're done.

Not sure if your ZW is the latest model, but DO NOT RUN MODERN ENGINES (from any manufacturer) WITH A ZW (or any postwar transformer)! The circuit breaker is too slow and it's easy to fry the electronics.  You can add a fast circuit breaker and TVS diode to each power supply for under $10 - search the forum for threads about circuit breakers and TVS diodes.

Not sure if you really mean DCC - it can be done in 3-rail, but adds a whole new level of complexity.  I assume you mean DCS - a lot of capabilities, but the components are extremely hard to find right now due to MTH's "reorganization".

@texgeekboy posted:

Thanks to all for the comments.  The engine I am interested in is prefaced by a 20-, so that's good.  I need to run this by the boss since my train spending is a bit over budget at this point.

Make sure you read the requirements for minimum radius. While some Premier (20-) locomotives will work on 031, many will not.

Have foam floor covering this time so there is a cushion.

Andrew

Mallard4468, I just bought the ZW (not new model) on ebay, fully reconditioned and inspected.  The seller was very careful to point out issues about running it with new engines.  He included the diodes you mentioned.  I also read about, in other threads, issues about fast circuit breakers.  I will get them before I put something new on the tracks.  Also, the engine has DCC and DCS capabilities.  Being ignorant of both, I searched on 'DCC' first.  I read essentially a DCC 101 blurb and fundamentally understood what it meant.  I didn't even look up DCS at that point.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Danr, the blurb for the engine I'm looking at specifically says it can handle O-31.  Is that sufficient, or do manufacturers exaggerate on that?  I've read other threads where they say that bigger engines that do handle tighter curves sometimes look "silly" doing so.  I won't care about that.

falconservice, yeah, I won't be doing this in the garage, and in Houston we don't have basements.  I'll be doing this in a spare bedroom upstairs with carpeted floors.

DallasJoseph, my wife only reads and plays tennis, so other than an very occasional new racket she has inexpensive hobbies.  I'm the problem one.

jim.1939, the following is in the line item of features:

"Proto-Sound 3.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring Freight Yard Proto-Effects".

So, that means no battery?

The GP60 is slightly larger than a GP9 which means it will handle tight curves.

Andrew

In my first 2 years of buying MTH PS1 and PS2 engines back in 2005-07 I replaced 3 boards at $200.00 plus. I learned that you can not charge batteries overnight per ps2 instructions or just buy new replacement batteries. BCRs and BCR2s ended these problems for me. I recommend staying worry free and just buy brand new PS3 engines from dealers. MrMuffins trains have been great to deal with for me and helping promptly with any problems.

The PS1 and PS2 batteries need to charge for only 90 minutes at the most to function again.

@texgeekboy posted:

Mallard4468, I just bought the ZW (not new model) on ebay, fully reconditioned and inspected.  The seller was very careful to point out issues about running it with new engines.  He included the diodes you mentioned.  I also read about, in other threads, issues about fast circuit breakers.  I will get them before I put something new on the tracks.  Also, the engine has DCC and DCS capabilities.  Being ignorant of both, I searched on 'DCC' first.  I read essentially a DCC 101 blurb and fundamentally understood what it meant.  I didn't even look up DCS at that point.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Danr, the blurb for the engine I'm looking at specifically says it can handle O-31.  Is that sufficient, or do manufacturers exaggerate on that?  I've read other threads where they say that bigger engines that do handle tighter curves sometimes look "silly" doing so.  I won't care about that.

falconservice, yeah, I won't be doing this in the garage, and in Houston we don't have basements.  I'll be doing this in a spare bedroom upstairs with carpeted floors.

DallasJoseph, my wife only reads and plays tennis, so other than an very occasional new racket she has inexpensive hobbies.  I'm the problem one.

jim.1939, the following is in the line item of features:

"Proto-Sound 3.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring Freight Yard Proto-Effects".

So, that means no battery?

As you continue to drink from a fire hose...

Re the refurbished ZW - does it have a 3-prong (grounded) plug?  There is a forum sponsor who has been doing this, and there was recently a lengthy discussion regarding this being dangerous.  I won't pretend to be able to explain it all, but the consensus among the electrical gurus was that a 3-prong plug on a postwar ZW is a bad idea.  (Another thread for you to search for.)

PS-3 engines can run under DCS or DCC (hence the switch), but as I mentioned earlier, DCC is a whole other animal.  And PS-3 engines do not have a battery, so there's no need for a BCR.

@texgeekboy posted:

"Proto-Sound 3.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring Freight Yard Proto-Effects".

So, that means no battery?

ProtoSound 3.0 locomotives are equipped with a "super capacitor", which handles the electronics' power needs whenever track power is interrupted. The only operational difference is that when you first power up the locomotive, it'll sit still for about a minute while the capacitor charges up, then everything else powers on. After you shift out of neutral by interrupting power it functions like any other conventional locomotive for the rest of your operating session.

In order to access a subset of the sound features, you'll need a bell controller spliced into the power feed to track. Your postwar locos, if equipped with whistles, work them with a pulse of DC current injected into the AC track power from the transformer. For modern locomotives with both horn/whistle and bells, the bell is accessed by sending a DC pulse with the opposite polarity to turn it on, and again to turn it off. Since your ZW was built long before O-gauge locos had bell sounds, Lionel produced a bell controller that you hook up between transformer and track, that sends the reverse DC pulse needed to operate the bell.

MTH locomotives in conventional operation have a number of sound and operation features (such as 'freight yard proto-effects") that can be accessed by combinations of horn and bell button presses.

Think of DCC and DCS as remote-controlled transformer handles located within each locomotive. DCC came first, then Lionel's (TMCC/Legacy) and MTH's (DCS) versions were developed later on after it became apparent that DCC didn't play well with the electrically rough-and-tumble world of 3-rail O-Gauge at the time with its AC motors, solenoids and the like.

---PCJ

RailRide,

Very informative and quite clear.  Thank you.

Mallard4468,

I read those posts as well.  It does not have a three prong plug.

johnny.winkler.

Yeah, I'll be buying a PS3 based on stuff you and others have posted.  Thanks.

Just to add my 2-cents. My last 6 engine purchases are MTH Rail King after mainly buying Lionel for 15 years, but with that, might I suggest a Lionel with Lionchief Plus or Lionchief Plus 2.0.  These will enable you to operate them with a remote control device without having to integrate a command control interface unit with your layout.

With an MTH PS3 engine, while they run fine in conventional mode, you're effectively paying for capabilities that you won't be able to access without an MTH DCS TIU (Track Interface Unit). The beauty of Lionchief, Plus, and Plus 2.0 is that you can tap the command control without Lionel's Command Base.

Granted, there aren't that many Warbonnet options available in Lionchief, so your options would be limited.

For a circuit breaker, I like the PSX-AC. This is very fast and designed to protect electronics.  You should be able to find them for $50-60 or so. The onboard CB in the old Lionel transformers was designed in the pre-electronic age (1950s and earlier). It protected the transformer, not the train. Newer transformers such as the MTH Z4000, the new Lionel ZW, and Powerhouse bricks as have fast acting CBs designed to protect the electronics. The other thing that is highly recommended to get is a TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressor) of the proper rating. This cheap little device provides voltage spike protection for your delicate electronics. ( another topic for your Search function!)

BTW, you hit a great spot for advice on all things 3 rail! Keep asking the questions.

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

For a circuit breaker, I like the PSX-AC. This is very fast and designed to protect electronics.  You should be able to find them for $50-60 or so.

Just a reminder that the PSX-AC is for mainly for command-only power.  It will only work if its input voltage is no lower than about 10 VAC.

Between a fixed-voltage AC power source (like a PH-135 or 180) and the track is fine.  Between a a fixed-voltage AC power source and a PowerMaster, for variable control, is also fine.  Between a ZW and the track for variable control does not work whenever the throttle is set to below 10 VAC.

Mike

raising4daughters, Thanks for the info on Lionel stuff.  I will certainly look into that before my purchase.  While they may not have warbonnets now, by the time my wife lets me open up my pocketbook they may.  I may even be interested in a used one.

lehighline, Thanks for the specific recommendation on circuit breakers.  I will almost certainly use it.

mellow.hudson.mike, Thanks for the technical info.  I'm not an expert in that area, so this really helps.

When using a postwar ZW to power a mix of conventional and command locomotives, I highly recommend Airpax Instant circuit breakers combined with TVS diodes.  The AirPax instant breakers trip when the current through them reaches about 135% or less of their rating.  I use the 10Amp breakers on the Track outputs of my ZWs and they trip instantly whenever there is a derailment.

Here is a link to more information about them and where to buy.  AirPax instant Breakers

Texgeekboy, I hope you find a suitable engine.

Besides the advertised minimum radius for the locomotive, you should also consider the length of the locomotive, because, not only does the locomotive have to negotiate a sharp curve, but it has to also not pull the car behind it off the track.  Diesels like a GP40 should be no problem, but the longer 6-axle locomotives might make it around the curve and derail the car they are coupled to.

@falconservice posted:

The PS1 and PS2 batteries need to charge for only 90 minutes at the most to function again.

You might need to charge the battery for 10 hours on some 9 Volt battery rechargers if the battery has not been used for several years.

Andrew