Used Train prices

We need to be honest with ourselves.  In this hobby we all want to buy low and sell high.  Perception is everything.  The market always determines what something is worth based on what someone is willing to pay.  If they are willing to pay more than you are, then that is the free market at work. 

As I've sold items on this forum, I feel like I price them fairly.  Some get interest, some get lowball offers, and some don't get any notice at all.  Again, this is simply the market at work.  I won't sell on the auction site due to the fees and the hassle.  Kudos to those of you who can put up with it!

@A. Wells  Cool. I am happy for you that you found some at I assume was at a fair or reasonable price. I forgot to mention the cars I sold were never run.

@Mannyrock I agree with at you are saying about the gizmos in O gauge but I don't think there is one solitary reason for the higher prices. I remember many years ago when Atlas tried to offer conventional locomotives. They were soon discontinued due to lack of interest. I think the reasons for high prices are what you said about gizmos which is definitely is part of it but also not just gizmos but the more details an item has the more the cost then there is the fact of almost no competition and much less numbers of people in O gauge buying the stuff. It all adds up to high prices and I am sure there a few other factors as well.

@Hudson J1e posted:

I have to wonder just how much of the overpriced stuff actually sells for that price. I am sure it happens once in a while but I don't think it happens that often.

I am currently trying to sell 6 accessories. I looked at the asking prices of other folks and priced mine less than that. I also put in my ads reasonable offers accepted. So people would know that I would go even lower. I haven't gotten a single offer for anything and I had close to 200 views on this board. So I took two of the accessories and put them on eBay. The MTH gas station and the MTH McDonald's. On the McDonald's I found a guy selling one for $200 plus $40 for shipping and it didn't have the SUV that drives up to the window. I saw a few others at $150 or $180. So I priced mine at $130 with Local or York Pick up. My McDonald's has the SUV and it is in great condition. I got 16 views and 1 watcher. Yesterday I lowered the price to $110. Didn't even get another "view". On the gas station I actually researched what they sold for on the bay. They have sold for anywhere between $40 and $120. So I priced mine at $80 figuring someone would make an offer over $55 and I would take it. I also got 16 views but no watchers. Yesterday I lowered the price to $60. Again, didn't even get another "view". Also, I tried to get a quote on shipping the gas station. I packed it up in a box and measured it and weighed it. I always get a quote based upon going from NJ to the west coast. The cost from the USPS was $86. If no one wants it at $80 then certainly no one will want it at $166! The McDonald's is even bigger than the gas station so I don't know how that guy is able to ship it for only $40. The high price of shipping (IMHO) has definitely put a damper on selling larger accessories on line.

Bottom line is I guess no one wants this stuff. My theories are #1) must be so few people left in O gauge that there is no market for these accessories or #2) the few people left in O gauge who would buy an accessory I am selling already have these accessories and don't need it. Other than that I can't really explain it. My next step is to try to sell this stuff at the METCA meet in November but I fear I will be wasting my time there.

I don't think price is your problem, local pickup is probably what's limiting you on the big auction site that shall not be named. Another is you have to have what people are looking for. I'd get the gas station, except 1) The Camaro doesn't fit the time period I'm modeling, 2) 76 isn't a brand station I'm interested in. If it were the Sinclair one, with the 57 Chevy, it'd be sold. But that's just me. Hang in there, have patience, sooner or later someone will come along that wants it. Without shipping, you'll probably stand a better chance moving it at some local meet or posting it on a local for sale listing like facebook or craigslist.

@Mannyrock posted:

Also, folks who love and insist upon more and more electronic gizmos and features on new trains and rolling stock seem totally willing to pay the higher and higher prices for them, with no end in sight.   "Have ya seen the new catalog yet!  Have ya seen the new catalog yet!"

"Just Say No to Gizmos!"

O Gaugers themselves are solely to blame for higher and higher O Gauge prices.

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

It pains me greatly to say this, because you've added so much that is good to this forum since you've been posting, but:

1.) We need to stop confusing asking price with selling price.  Currently very, very little sells for the price that's asked.  Asking prices are indeed rising like the devil, but there's little evidence that selling pricing prices are following suit -- except in limited circumstances (people with more money than brains), and to those that are impatient.

   and

2.) Apparently there's no room in this hobby for innovation.  With that in mind it looks like about 80% of us should exit the hobby, and leave the pickings for the true hobbyists, thus restoring order to the market by helping to lower prices on "the good old stuff".  With all due respect, that's baloney.

If you don't like it don't buy it, which you're apparently doing quite well with.  Just don't blame the rest of us, those who buy gizmos, for fueling the apparently rising prices on the stuff you do buy.  We, and the gizmos, have nothing to do with it.  (By definition, being fixated on gizmos, we aren't the slightest bit interested in "the good old stuff" and so don't compete with you for it.)

M.H.M.

@Hudson J1e posted:

@A. Wells  Cool. I am happy for you that you found some at I assume was at a fair or reasonable price. I forgot to mention the cars I sold were never run.

About $50.00 each.  I'm fearing I may get them and decide they are destined for the scrap heap.

Mellow,

Thanks for your comments.

However, I offered no discussions as to "asking prices".    People here aren't primarily concerned with the asking prices at which they don't buy, but with the actual purchase prices, that they have to pay.   Selling prices, not just asking prices, are at an all time high.

People asked the question as to why prices are so high.   I gave factual reasons for it.  I'm sorry you don't like the answers.

I didn't solely blame the new gizmo items for the high prices.  Please re-read the very first reason I listed.

Moreover, I didn't tell anybody to leave the hobby.  If you like paying higher and higher prices for more and more gizmos and details, then that is great!   But then that leaves little room to complain about the high cost of anything.  (Every time a new Lionel or other catalog comes out, we see postings about how shockingly high the new prices are.  And then,  . . . people just buy.)

Do you seriously think that if folks stopped paying the higher and higher prices for the new gizmo items, and all other items for that matter, that the cost of those items wouldn't start to fall in a mere 90 days?

I just bought a new Williams 44 ton scale diesel, for $149, after refusing to pay the higher listed prices of $229 to $249 for six months.  If everybody was calmer and waited longer before knee jerk buying and paying higher prices, then all of the prices would come down, dramatically.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

"Just Say No to Gizmos!"

**** NO!  I sell gizmos for model trains, I don't want people saying no!

LOL! Not to worry John. I don't think the gizmos are going anywhere.

I probably posted on a similar topic like this a while ago, but I feel like chiming in anyway.

I personally think you guys are right on the money for the most part. At least in the last few years, thankfully I have been able to get not just reasonably priced stuff, but some darn good bargains too. But of course through my travels and my searches on the internet, there were things I definitely wanted, but they were priced like they were brand new from the factory. And it seems like model trains in general can be seen like buying cars; ones that have been out for no more than a few years may see a price drop at some point, but then ones that are decades old could see higher values due to how collectable they are. One thing that personally bothers me is when stuff from 20 years ago with PS1 and TMCC are still trying to be sold for the same or similar prices to their newer counterparts with new electronics.

I pay top dollar for something I want that is sealed. However, after buying a couple of pre 2000 locomotives, I have stopped buying used locomotives and any locomotives with non flywheel motors.

I *rarely* find a decent deal on the "Big E" auction site, and generally have only used it for things I really needed. I do sell items there just for the ease of doing so, but the fees they take are pretty steep. I'll try selling a few pieces here and see how that goes.

Much better deals can be found by regularly searching auctions on HiBid.com or Proxibid -- there's your Tip of the Day, LOL.

Lately, I have had much better luck buying straight from a dealer. The items are mostly NOS, are almost always listed below what is shown on the bay, the shipping is cheaper or free depending on where you buy from, and most of the dealers have online discount codes. It takes some effort to track down something specific but it almost always pays off.

@A. Wells posted:

About $50.00 each.  I'm fearing I may get them and decide they are destined for the scrap heap.

I saw some of the atlas front runners in 3 rail available new from one of the forum sponsors for $89.95

@Mannyrock posted:

Mellow,

Thanks for your comments.

However, I offered no discussions as to "asking prices".    People here aren't primarily concerned with the asking prices at which they don't buy, but with the actual purchase prices, that they have to pay.   Selling prices, not just asking prices, are at an all time high.

People asked the question as to why prices are so high.   I gave factual reasons for it.  I'm sorry you don't like the answers.

I didn't solely blame the new gizmo items for the high prices.  Please re-read the very first reason I listed.

Moreover, I didn't tell anybody to leave the hobby.  If you like paying higher and higher prices for more and more gizmos and details, then that is great!   But then that leaves little room to complain about the high cost of anything.  (Every time a new Lionel or other catalog comes out, we see postings about how shockingly high the new prices are.  And then,  . . . people just buy.)

Do you seriously think that if folks stopped paying the higher and higher prices for the new gizmo items, and all other items for that matter, that the cost of those items wouldn't start to fall in a mere 90 days?

I just bought a new Williams 44 ton scale diesel, for $149, after refusing to pay the higher listed prices of $229 to $249 for six months.  If everybody was calmer and waited longer before knee jerk buying and paying higher prices, then all of the prices would come down, dramatically.

Mannyrock

And I thank you for your comments as well.

Asking prices are easy to find, actual sold prices require some digging.  They're not in your face like the asking prices are.

I do find things that have sold for ridiculously high prices, but these are few.  Furthermore it's absolutely true in my mind that there's been a large influx of newbies, probably because of the pandemic, many of whom are apparently paying the asking price without blinking an eye.

"Length of time for sale" is also not easy to find.  These figures tell the real long-term story.  Many, many, many listed items have been for sale for a long, long time, with no takers.    I've been tracking select items for five years now.  In too many cases there were no takers at the lower asking prices of two or three or four years ago, and there are still no takers at the much higher ones of today.

This is why asking price is so important to understanding the current situation.  Asking prices are too high, and as a result many things are not selling, so they generate no selling price to compare with.

This is just what you would hope in order to send the correct message to sellers.

Just like the stock market a correction is in order.  I know that you can wait for it.  How about everyone else (especially the newbies)?

I stand behind my claim that it's not the gizmos that are causing the problem.  It's the newbies (and maybe a few of us long-time buyers with sudden extra income gone crazy as well, but only a few).

As things get back to normal the newbies will get distracted and stop buying.  Prices will come down, but only for those who are patient.

Mike

@Magicland posted:

I don't think price is your problem, local pickup is probably what's limiting you on the big auction site that shall not be named. Another is you have to have what people are looking for. I'd get the gas station, except 1) The Camaro doesn't fit the time period I'm modeling, 2) 76 isn't a brand station I'm interested in. If it were the Sinclair one, with the 57 Chevy, it'd be sold. But that's just me. Hang in there, have patience, sooner or later someone will come along that wants it. Without shipping, you'll probably stand a better chance moving it at some local meet or posting it on a local for sale listing like facebook or craigslist.

@Magicland I think you are right about the gas station. The Sinclair version seems to demand a high premium. It appears that the Sinclair version is very desirable but that doesn’t explain the other accessories. Shipping is out due to the high cost. Even if I lowered the price on the McDonald’s to $25 it would probably cost $100 to ship it across the country due to the size of the box. I do live in an area (2.5 hours from York) where there are a large number of O gauge enthusiasts. I guess after reading this thread I just have to hold on to this stuff until a buyer comes along. Hopefully, at some point in time someone will make me an offer on some of the items.

One more thing: occasionally good deals are out there but a very good deal usually sells very quickly. Case in point I checked the Buy/Sell forum 3 hours ago and I saw a guy selling a MTH NYC F7 or F3 B unit (unpowered) for $50 and a MTH RK SW and SW calf (looked mint) in Illinois Central for $300. The ad is gone. I can only assume both got sold or the seller changed his mind. Two very good deals. Both were newer MTH models. The F unit was from last year.

Excellent follow up points Mike!

Mannyrock

I guess I just got into this at the right time...and that time has passed.

Most of my higher-end stuff is put away for a better tomorrow...and I am going after cheap k line stuff that can be upgraded (gun runner)...and there are still some bargains at that level.

Otherwise...forget it. It's too expensive...and my cars and guitars want love too.

Interesting that I am not the only one seeing what is going on...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not anticipating a lot of purchases at York, I think people are still thinking about inflated prices.  I see stuff on eBay and even here on OGR at way more than I'd ever consider paying.  When people are asking MSRP and more for used stuff with no warranty, I can wait for a better deal!

Glad to know it just wasn't me, thinking that way!!

I agree with the OP.  Availability of new necessary goods aside, we are talking about expendable income purchases here, I've been priced out of the product market for a while now and see prices on the secondary market heading that way.  Like GRJ I have more than I need already so purchases are less frequent and lean toward smaller accessory items and necessary track items.

I came into this a year ago, and was frankly shocked at the high asking prices then, and now I am double shocked at how much they have risen in the past year.   I rarely buy NIB stuff, but even the used, VG+, lightly run quality stuff in the $180 range last year all seems to be in the $280  range now.

It would seem to me that if anyone has accumulated a large collection of quality items in the past, and put them away with a specific view to selling them at a profit, . . . now is the time.   

From this point onward, I believe that with inflation and shortages, disposable income is going to fall for the foreseeable future.  (Mine certainly has).  At the same time, the total number of people in the O gauge hobby seems to be falling. 

The price of O gauge stuff is elastic, and it will hit the top and stall at some point in the next couple of years, and begin to fall.

(I notice that a number of people going to York this week have specifically said that they are not going to buy anything, because the prices are too high.)

All investments have a maturity point, and it is amazing how many investors simply "fall in love" with their investments and hold them way too long.

Year 2032:

Mom:  "Well, it was a beautiful funeral, and your father is finally at rest."

Daughter:  "Yes, . . . but Mom, what are we going to do with those hundreds of train cars in the basement?"

Mom:  "1-800-Got-Junk"

Mannyrock

I think the proof of all this will be evident by Saturday night.  For me, I have certain pieces on my wanted list but also have a maximum amount I'm willing to spend for them.  As far as sales go, I will have a LOT of excess that I need to get rid of and I'm not overly interested in bringing it back home.

Some items that are truly rare or hard to find, I'm looking to get what I can out of them but negotiable.

Common items like VG condition rolling stock will be in the $5 to $20 range and postwar black steam engines will be under $100.

I see at shows way too many folks trying to sell common steam engines in the $150 range and they just sit on the tables forever.  Just how many 2020, 2026, 2035 engines can anyone own and how many collectors/operators already have all of those.

Of 120 items on my Lionel list (postwar & MPC) 70 are $20 and under.  Only 25 items are in the 3 digit range and that includes full boxed and unboxed sets.  I really don't think the high prices folks are seeing are real or sustainable.

My feeling is that most plain old TCA member & York table holders like me will be looking to move items, not pocket as much money as possible like back in the late 90's early 2000's.

Hope I don't get in trouble posting this.

LionelFlyer

I personally loathe buying used items. I guess it's some underlying mental disorder.  But, given the lack of availability of new items from manufacturers, I'm forced to buy used items that I want for my layout (or just want in general).  Again, this goes back to my earlier comments that one reason for outrageous used model train prices is that manufacturers only re-release many desirable items every half a century.

Anthony

Lionel Flyer,

If I were going to York, I would definitely be shopping your table!

When you get back, maybe you could group your remaining low priced rolling stock in logical groups of four, and list them for sale here

Mannyrock

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Why?

The vast majority of O gauge collectors and operators are of the "Baby Boomer" age who are now retired or near retirement age. In the next ten or so years most of us will be boarding that last train to that "big train room" in the sky. The market in ten years will be flush with used trains. Remember,over the past 40-50 years there has been a tremendous amount of product that has been bought up for collections and layouts.  The younger folks in this hobby will pay much less for used trains due to the huge supply that will be available. I'm already seeing this trend locally. I've been contacted about buying collections more in the past year than the previous forty!

I came to York wondering how things would be priced.  Although the meet hasn't started, I've been to a couple of the bandit meets - asking prices are pretty much unchanged from the last meet 2 years ago, and the one guy I bought from was very interested in negotiating.  Common items in "operator" condition do not appear to have gone up.

My theory is that the perceived run-up in prices is primarily for mint/rare items, and it is fed by people being stuck at home.  This will change as meets open up.

We'll see what tomorrow brings...

Excellent insights folks. Coming into the discussion I have a nice size selection of PW rolling stock, plasticville, and some accessories from my childhood. During the lock down I enjoyed the bay; and found things I didn’t know I needed. I also like to make purchases at my LHS; important to support. Now, on the Eve of York I have a list of need to have and those items if they  cross my path. My goal at York is to enjoy the experience because I surely did miss the experience last year.

@Hudson J1e posted:

One more thing: occasionally good deals are out there but a very good deal usually sells very quickly. Case in point I checked the Buy/Sell forum 3 hours ago and I saw a guy selling a MTH NYC F7 or F3 B unit (unpowered) for $50 and a MTH RK SW and SW calf (looked mint) in Illinois Central for $300. The ad is gone. I can only assume both got sold or the seller changed his mind. Two very good deals. Both were newer MTH models. The F unit was from last year.

That ad is not gone (shameless plug)

@MikeH posted:

That ad is not gone (shameless plug)

Mike that is so strange. I looked all over and I couldn't find it but yes, you are right it is there. I guess I was looking in the wrong spot. Sorry about that. I sent you an email on it.

This morning a bunch of us were discussing prices and I brought up this thread. We are all hoping that prices will be where they ought to be and not out of this world like some items on eBay. We were discussing the changes on eBay that are effecting prices there to be higher in order for people to at least make what they should on an item in some cases(because some are again, overpriced by a lot). One such instance was a PRR Mountain(not sure which model from Lionel) being priced nearly $2K, nearly double of what it was new. The item sold for that price though which is ridiculous even if you are factoring in the costs for the changes on eBay and Paypal too boot.

Well, whatever comes here is to hoping that this York will be great for everyone, and prices hopefully will be where they should be. I know that in 2018 I think it was, there was someone trying to win the lottery with their sealed set from I think from the mid 1950's, which was I think in or around $20K. I'd have to ask Peter, AKA Putnam Division as he was the one that told Ed Boyle and I before the OGR meeting.

I find a lot of new items on eBay. When I do I always look for a "Make Offer". If I see one, I'll do some research (Greenberg's if Lionel) or go to the Train City website that has a price guide for what they've sold. And sometimes I can find the MSRP on Grahams website (they have a section for Archived items). Then I'll make an offer. Many times I've gotten the items for less than their asking price (including shipping to me).

Paul,  I have contacted the seller on items with Buy It Now listing and offered what I thought was a fair price.  It never hurts to ask, doesn't cost a penny and often has resulted in a sale at a fair price.  Whether at the auction Internet site, OGR For Sale or a train show or swap meet, you won't know until you ask. John

@rattler21 posted:

Paul,  I have contacted the seller on items with Buy It Now listing and offered what I thought was a fair price.  It never hurts to ask, doesn't cost a penny and often has resulted in a sale at a fair price.  Whether at the auction Internet site, OGR For Sale or a train show or swap meet, you won't know until you ask. John

Yup; you never know until you ask. Typically I find most sellers will not take your first offer, but I just keep trying. Sometimes I decide not to buy at the sellers offered price. And then later I sometimes get an offer from that same seller for less than what they previously offered me.

I just returned home from attending the first day at the York Train Show. I found the prices for PW to be reasonable. IMHO there may be a down turn in prices because people, on both sides of the table, will be returning to such venues. This was the first TCA York exhibition in two years! During the interim I made more purchases on the bay than before. However, in addition to my LHS, I’ll wait on a meet.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

I just returned home from attending the first day at the York Train Show. I found the prices for PW to be reasonable. IMHO there may be a down turn in prices because people, on both sides of the table, will be returning to such venues. This was the first TCA York exhibition in two years! During the interim I made more purchases on the bay than before. However, in addition to my LHS, I’ll wait on a meet.

I agree.  Prices especially in the dealer halls were under control.  Some of the other vender halls thought they had gold and stuff was marked high, but in general I thought prices were OK.  I thought Trainz has a very good selection with very good prices.

I saw MTH Premier Diesel PS1 engines for $150-$175 and PS2 engines for $300-$350.  Most anything PS3 ranged from $400-$500.  There were several times I had to talk myself out of another diesel and focus on getting the stuff I came for.

I had fun and really enjoyed seeing all of the OGR forum members.

Ron

eBay is a pain. People tag some ridiculous price on things and wait. If it doesn’t sell eBay lists It again for free . All this means is they can throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. If it doesn’t stick eBay will throw it at the wall again.  In addition seems reasonable prices are accompanied by some insane amount of shipping. $5.00 dollar caboose with $75.00 shipping. I still keep prowling eBay for engines and stuff that needs a friend to repair them, but I am a lot more cautious now. Good deals are still available among the hucksters .

Good observation Ron. I also stayed focused on the items I needed. Saw some nicetahaves but there will be future opportunities.

Supply vs. demand.  Pen in demand for 1-2 years and watch what happens!  I've been lurking on eBay and the OGR FSOT forum page looking for an opportunity to add switchers to my roundhouse-to-be.  Prices haven't budged over a year, with one particular 20-year-old steam switcher still offered at the same price as a year ago.  Asking prices were way up for everything last spring.  But sell prices not so much - got a dockominium slip for my sailboat at 25% under ask, this month, and not out of line with prices a year ago.  Fortunately, I purchased my full-scale mainline locos when they cost 2/3 of what's asked today.  And the switchers will eventually settle into a more reasonable price range.

@Ron045 posted:

I agree.  Prices especially in the dealer halls were under control.  Some of the other vender halls thought they had gold and stuff was marked high, but in general I thought prices were OK.  I thought Trainz has a very good selection with very good prices.

I saw MTH Premier Diesel PS1 engines for $150-$175 and PS2 engines for $300-$350.  Most anything PS3 ranged from $400-$500.  There were several times I had to talk myself out of another diesel and focus on getting the stuff I came for.

I had fun and really enjoyed seeing all of the OGR forum members.

Ron

And, of course, the PS2 engine I'm looking at is over $400.  I keep hoping it will drift downward.

I don't get upset over what someone wants to charge for an item.  If it's too much for me then I move on.  There are items I've seen both on ebay and at York that I desired, but passed on what the seller was asking.

There are 3 high-priced items that I have been searching now for a while and 2 of those items I am willing to pay quite a bit for.  I was hoping to find one or all at York, but no luck.  Regardless, the thrill of the chase is exciting!

@Mannyrock posted:

I came into this a year ago, and was frankly shocked at the high asking prices then, and now I am double shocked at how much they have risen in the past year.   I rarely buy NIB stuff, but even the used, VG+, lightly run quality stuff in the $180 range last year all seems to be in the $280  range now.

It would seem to me that if anyone has accumulated a large collection of quality items in the past, and put them away with a specific view to selling them at a profit, . . . now is the time.   

From this point onward, I believe that with inflation and shortages, disposable income is going to fall for the foreseeable future.  (Mine certainly has).  At the same time, the total number of people in the O gauge hobby seems to be falling.

The price of O gauge stuff is elastic, and it will hit the top and stall at some point in the next couple of years, and begin to fall.

(I notice that a number of people going to York this week have specifically said that they are not going to buy anything, because the prices are too high.)

All investments have a maturity point, and it is amazing how many investors simply "fall in love" with their investments and hold them way too long.

Year 2032:

Mom:  "Well, it was a beautiful funeral, and your father is finally at rest."

Daughter:  "Yes, . . . but Mom, what are we going to do with those hundreds of train cars in the basement?"

Mom:  "1-800-Got-Junk"

Mannyrock

Very well said.

Mike