I purchased the #4024 Greyhound and I guess I got a golden sample. It is perfect in every way except the whistle is weak. It is completely drowned out by the other sound effects and even when they are turned down it's not very loud at full volume. I can not hear it across my 8x16 layout. I also have a Joshua Cowens Legacy Big Boy and it has a great deep and vibrant whistle. Its only got 1 whistle but no problems hearing it.
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Lionel skimped on a baffle on the front speaker. They also filter out the low frequencies for some reason. The TMCC locos have much deeper horns/whistles/
This was discussed on a previous thread. Surefire is correct. Lionel left out the speaker chamber on the speaker in the boiler.
Here's that thread:
I use which I think is the third or fourth choice whistle, which is a fair amount louder and quite similar to the standard big boy whistle. I’ve gotten use to it and like it. I agree the whistle is weak. See the thread Ricko recommended. It’s discussed in detail. I actually started that thread on the weak whistle.
I'm no sound engineer but I do have an ear for sound. A friend of mine at my train club mentioned something about probably a lack of a sound baffle causing the sound to not be directed out of the locomotive body shell. I left my 4024 at the club. I'll fool around with adjusting the chuffing and hissing effects down and blocking the IR sensor when I'm there next Saturday. Looks like Lionel dropped the ball on a key sound feature and should have known better. It's a disappointment after spending $2600 but I guess we will have to live with it. If Lionel did not install one because it was not feasible space wise then I could live without blowdown steam if it meant a decent sounding whistle. I hope it wasn't some bean counter decision to save a couple of bucks on a locomotive they would charge an arm and a a leg for.
It looks like there is a heat sink in the way and that's why they excluded one. I bought a baffle from the previous run and we'll see if it can be squeezed in there. Fingers crossed! The backup plan is to try to 3D print a baffle if the stock baffle can't be fit in there.
@Ron Casamento is right though. There are some whistles that sound like they're modified Big Boy whistles.
This is very interesting. Please keep me posted.
Will do. @Dave 69 GTEL I don't know much about baffles so I'm not sure how air tight this needs to be.
The baffle should be as air-tight as possible, but don't go crazy. If you just take a 2" bare speaker and drop it into a spray can lid, the difference in sound is pretty amazing. That being the case, the presence of the baffle is more important than being absolutely air tight. Obviously, the better the seal, the more effective the baffle will be.
The whole object of the exercise is to prevent sound waves from the rear of the speaker from interfering with the waves coming out of the front of the speaker. If you prevent 95% of that from happening, you'll accomplish your goal.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The baffle should be as air-tight as possible, but don't go crazy. If you just take a 2" bare speaker and drop it into a spray can lid, the difference in sound is pretty amazing. That being the case, the presence of the baffle is more important than being absolutely air tight. Obviously, the better the seal, the more effective the baffle will be.
The whole object of the exercise is to prevent sound waves from the rear of the speaker from interfering with the waves coming out of the front of the speaker. If you prevent 95% of that from happening, you'll accomplish your goal.
So is it the principle that the sound waves from the rear of the speaker have a sound cancellation effect on the sound from the front?
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:So is it the principle that the sound waves from the rear of the speaker have a sound cancellation effect on the sound from the front?
There are other factors in play, but the major issue is indeed that the sound from the rear is out of phase 180 degrees with the sound from the front, thus tending to cancel out the sounds. The results is the tinny sound you hear from a speaker with no baffle.
Obviously, there is a LOT more that goes into a truly sound engineered speaker enclosure, but truthfully the stuff in model trains probably won't realize significant gains with enclosures for 2" speakers without spending way more than the manufacturer's are willing to do.
That being said, consider the sound you get from a decent quality laptop, those speakers are tiny in respect to what we use. However some laptops have some pretty amazing sound, so it's possible to do a lot with a little. I'm guessing the laptop makers actually do spend quite a lot of money making the sound system as good as reasonably possible in a very small space.
Is there a way to adjust the volume of the sounds in the engine without adjusting the volume of the sounds in the tender or vise versa?
I realize there are ways to change the sound volume of the whistle/bell independent of the background sounds.
@DaveGG posted:Is there a way to adjust the volume of the sounds in the engine without adjusting the volume of the sounds in the tender or vise versa?
I don't think so, there is no physical volume control on the new stuff, and the only way the tender gets volume controls is through the IR link from the locomotive.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:There are other factors in play, but the major issue is indeed that the sound from the rear is out of phase 180 degrees with the sound from the front, thus tending to cancel out the sounds. The results is the tinny sound you hear from a speaker with no baffle.
Yes "tinny" is the best way to describe it. Maybe someone will figure out how to make a baffle and put it in. Lionel ought to have some pride and take care of it. It's their signature product.
@DaveGG posted:Is there a way to adjust the volume of the sounds in the engine without adjusting the volume of the sounds in the tender or vise versa?
I realize there are ways to change the sound volume of the whistle/bell independent of the background sounds.
Press AUX 1 prior to volume up or down will adjust background sounds independently from the whistle. I will try it when I can get my hands on my locomotive next Saturday.
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:Press AUX 1 prior to volume up or down will adjust background sounds independently from the whistle. I will try it when I can get my hands on my locomotive next Saturday.
Ohhhhh....so that adjust the background sounds 
I thought it adjust the whistle and bell volume so I have been cranking them up as loud as I can wondering why there's no change. This explains some things.
@BillYo414 posted:Ohhhhh....so that adjust the background sounds
Your previous comment seemed to suggest you wanted to just adjust the locomotive sounds, to adjust the background sounds for both, that is the correct technique.
Its really easy to adjust sounds on lion chief app, individual sliders for bell, whistle, crew talk, and engine sound.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:That being said, consider the sound you get from a decent quality laptop, those speakers are tiny in respect to what we use. However some laptops have some pretty amazing sound, so it's possible to do a lot with a little. I'm guessing the laptop makers actually do spend quite a lot of money making the sound system as good as reasonably possible in a very small space.
I can confirm the technology industry spends oodles of money on sound.
For a while, Apple and Microsoft had an anechoic chamber arms race, continually building more and more extreme facilities. I don't recall which one currently holds the title of quietest place on earth.
That's not to mention the teams of (not cheap) specialized engineers working on the products.
Putting aside the issues with this model, its actually impressive how much model train manufacturers including Lionel have done on a much more limited engineering capacity and budget.
(also removing a baffle known to work without an alternate solution is just cheap/dumb)
@PSM posted:Putting aside the issues with this model, its actually impressive how much model train manufacturers including Lionel have done on a much more limited engineering capacity and budget.
Actually, one of my significant complaints with MTH was they didn't spend the time to do a better job on sound, especially steam. While most Lionel modern steam has baffles that appear to have been reasonably thought out, MTH normally just drops a bare speaker or two in there. MTH also don't use high quality speakers, they're still using the cheap STAR speakers in many of their products.
Lionel and MTH appear to be close to parity with diesel sounds, both of them have pretty good sound. I never understood why MTH didn't put a little more effort into steam sounds.
I have the oil burning modern excursion version of 4014 and to me the overall sounds are plenty loud enough at max volume. The stock whistle is quiet compared to the other background sounds and effects as well as other Lionel Legacy steam whistles. I'll play around with selecting an alternate whistle as others have suggested.
BTW, overall the engine is AWESOME. It's everything you'd want in a Big Boy -- huge, loud, billows smoke from multiple places, and looks and sounds great. Its lights look killer, especially the cab and markers. It hasn't had any problems tracking O72 curves including an S curve on a gentle decline. I picked the high gloss version in part because I knew it would be fairly likely to be accurate to the prototype, and I chose wisely. If you're on the fence, don't be -- I'm happy I ordered it.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:There are other factors in play, but the major issue is indeed that the sound from the rear is out of phase 180 degrees with the sound from the front, thus tending to cancel out the sounds. The results is the tinny sound you hear from a speaker with no baffle.
John, can you confirm this is the case? My Big Boy sounds nice and beefy. The default whistle is proportionally quieter compared to the other sounds and other Lionel Legacy whistles as I mentioned above.
I know what out of phase sounds like and I don't think that's what up because *everything* would sound weak, not just the whistle. But even if that was the case, wouldn't switching the conductors on one of the speakers (not both) fix the issue?
No, you're missing the point of the baffle. When there is no baffle, the sound waves from the rear and front cancel each other.
The original baffle did not simply drop in:
The screw holes are misaligned. But also, the baffle would not exact cover the speaker. I don't know if that would hurt or help to be honest. I would imagine it would still direct the sound downwards. Rerouting some wires might be necessary as well.
With that said, I'm electing to just 3D print a baffle. I made a CAD drawing of this baffle in the above pics too in case someone needs a replacement. It should work. There is a separate plate that was tricky to draw since it has some sort of soft adhesive pad on it.
Does anybody know what size the screws are that hold the boiler on? I had two drop and hit the concrete. They are...gone. Only CERN knows where they went.
Billy kept us updated.
@BillYo414 did you by chance have any luck doing something else to get a baffle in?
@zhubl nah. I've been laying track instead. The last of it was done today. I'll probably open the Big Boy up this weekend and try to take some measurements for a custom baffle. My 3D printer is down for the down though so I won't be able to make one on there for bit. I might try to make one out of whatever is laying around though. I could try hacking up the baffle I bought.
I bought a screw assortment from Amazon some time back, that allows me to replace any screws that hide under the workbench or other places. 
Does this include the screws that hold the boiler shell on? @gunrunnerjohn
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I bought a screw assortment from Amazon some time back, that allows me to replace any screws that hide under the workbench or other places.
NINDEJIN 650pcs Laptop Screws Kit, Replacement Computer Notebook Miniature Screws
Are these generally the length and thread type that Lionel and MTH use?
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:Are these generally the length and thread type that Lionel and MTH use?
If you're finding metric screws, these are almost always the correct thread. There are several specifications of metric screws, but I have had pretty close to 100% with these kits. There are coarse and fine thread specifications, but I believe most of the model train screws are the coarse thread.
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:Are these generally the length and thread type that Lionel and MTH use?
I've found some screws are metric. Some are standard. The only way to know for sure is to look up a specific model, or the previous run on Lionels parts site and see what's listed.
From that I made a list of what I actually needed and ordered them from monsterbolts. com.
Johns assortment is a good place to start. I just didn't see the need for 500 screws I'll never use. So I ordered batches of 10 for a couple of bucks from monsterbolts.
I've found these screws to be most common on my modest mix of TMCC and recent legacy models. Most are actually standard sizes:
M2x6mm. 6/32×1/4
M2x8mm. 6×32 x 5/16
#4-40x 3/16
#4-40x 5/16
#4-40× 1/4
@RickO posted:I've found some screws are metric. Some are standard. The only way to know for sure is to look up a specific model, or the previous run on Lionels parts site and see what's listed.
From that I made a list of what I actually needed and ordered them from monsterbolts. com.
Johns assortment is a good place to start. I just didn't see the need for 500 screws I'll never use. So I ordered batches of 10 for a couple of bucks from monsterbolts.
I use a lot of screws, and considering the assortment was only around $12, it was easier. Truthfully, I never know what size I might need. Also, I have screw cutters for SAE and metric screws in case I need a shorter screw. I think I have a total of around $30 in some screw kits, and I haven't needed to go searching for screws for a long time.
There are quite a few SAE screws used in both Lionel and MTH models, so I stock those as well.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I use a lot of screws, and considering the assortment was only around $12, it was easier. Truthfully, I never know what size I might need.
In your case John, given the large amount of repair work you do. Absolutely!
I only need enough "spares" for my small collection.
Of course, now that I actually have spares. I'll probably never drop another into the abyss. But at least I'm prepared when a Chinese assembler gets a little too aggressive with a power screwdriver.😉
@BillYo414 posted:Does this include the screws that hold the boiler shell on? @gunrunnerjohn
I know it will come as a surprise, but Lionel has used both metric and SAE screws for various models to hold the boiler shell on. 
MTH seems to use a lot of SAE screws for the boiler and tender shells, but that's not universal. A lot of the internal screws will be mixed as well.
I can here the next question coming, but I have no idea why they mix them up like that, I just adapt to what the current situation is. 
Sound baffles and cancellations, reminiscent of stereo. This might be simplistic, but like a stereo where it sounds monaural if the speakers are misphased, any chance the front and rear speaker cancellation can be fixed by just reversing the wires on one speaker?
@gunrunnerjohn I also adapt as needed but I like to be aware of a pattern if there is one
@CALNNC would this be the "phase" of the speakers?
@BillYo414 posted:@gunrunnerjohn I also adapt as needed but I like to be aware of a pattern if there is one
AFAIK, there's not a pattern that I've figured out.
@BillYo414 posted:I also adapt as needed but I like to be aware of a pattern if there is one
Fwiw. The earlier run VL bigboy shows 4-40 ×3/8 screws being used for the speaker chamber:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...LOCO-ONLY-6101449001
I suppose you might want to make sure the holes in the chassis are even threaded.
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