Weak Whistle on the Vision Line Big Boy

@BillYo414 posted:

Well my video exceeded the size limit. Here is the video.

It may not have been a perfect test because I didn't test it with a shell on at all but it's definitely a "bigger" sound with this baffle. I would say it's filler. The fit isn't perfect. I had to press down pretty hard. But that's just a matter of tweaking the dimensions. I got one out of four screw holes to match haha

There's a positive difference. Just going to take some refining of the details to make it solid.

Next steps are to get the fit perfect, get some sort of gasket material, and measure up the screws so I can get longer screws.

Video Embedded:

Awesome definitely looks better than my “field engineering” with what I had 😜. I’ll be interested to see if you got the size a little bigger than what I used and how much different it is.

Billyo414, thank you for your time and efforts on this!

@zhubl I definitely intend to experiment with bigger and different shaped baffles. I suspect an air tight seal will be the biggest came changer though. I also think I need to test this with the tender in place and the shell on. I left the tender off the track just to make sure there was a real difference, and then I updated here and went to bed.

Just a heads up to anybody interested in this mod, you will have to relocate some wires. That will involve unplugging them and rerouting them over the metal piece at the end of the board. The hardest part is getting the tiny connectors unplugged but I thought I would mention this in case anyone is squeamish about doing this sort of thing.

As I expected a significant difference in the sound volume with just a simple baffle!  Why they didn't do that on a $2,000+ locomotive is totally beyond me!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

As I expected a significant difference in the sound volume with just a simple baffle!  Why they didn't do that on a $2,000+ locomotive is totally beyond me!

Gunrunner: 2,600 +!!!!!

@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:

Gunrunner: 2,600 +!!!!!

$1600, I was averaging.

I'm not 100% sure how the Baffled Big Boy had its speak oriented but I will say that a baffle is a tight fit on the Baffle-less Big Boy. The speaker is held down by the flange of the screws and the speaker sits in a little recessed pocket. Fitting screw holes into the 3D printed part will be a squeeze. The next prototype is on the printer now. I measured the screw holes and corrected them (fun fact! they are asymmetrical), shrank the base a bit, and added a pocket for the wired connections.

I really wanted to experiment with adding ports to the baffle but they would be useless without drilling a matching hole in the frame.

For the ambitious among us, here are the speaker specs:

• 8 ohm
• 2 watt
• 1.5715" diameter at the largest point
• about 0.7625" tall overall
• connected on the side

I don't know what makes a speaker good in this case exactly but maybe somebody can comment with a speaker upgrade candidate.

I threw the tender on the tracks and the gains seem less pronounced when the tender speaker is active. We'll see. I will record another test with the tender and assembled locomotive, with and without the baffle. That'll be the final test.

@BillYo414 posted:

… I threw the tender on the tracks and the gains seem less pronounced when the tender speaker is active. We'll see. I will record another test with the tender and assembled locomotive, with and without the baffle. That'll be the final test.

that has still been my experience it’s definitely an improvement but this is why I think there is still something wrong with the original sound file. After my experience with this big boy I went back and I’ve found dual sound system steamers back to the GS-1 lack the front speaker baffle once you realize this you can hear the lack of bass from the front system from these engines but no where near as bad as the big boy.

To be clear the only other locomotives I can officially confirm is the GS-1, and CSA-2 Challenger.

I agree. The lack of bass becomes apparent without the baffle. As I gather, we can't change the sound file (that wasn't an invitation to aggressively discuss ) so this might be as good as it gets unless a magic speaker change makes a difference. It made a difference in my old MTH Erie Triplex so I suppose it could happen. That is above my technical ability though. I'll have to get on the learning curve.

@BillYo414 posted:

I really wanted to experiment with adding ports to the baffle but they would be useless without drilling a matching hole in the frame.

Why do you think you'd have to punch a hole in the frame? The baffler is the separator of the front and rear of the speaker, not the entire boiler.  Just vent it inside the boiler.

I'd consider just putting the port tube on the top of the baffle.  I'd make the baffle as tall as possible and still have it fit, and put the tube inside on the top of the baffle.  It would be a tube inside the top running from one side to the other, an opening inside on one end, and the other end open to the outside.  This seems to be the general design of the speaker enclosures with ports that I've looked at.

Any progress on this? I've been thinking about it the last couple days.

I am very hopeful that this Big Boy whistle investigation could yield an acceptable and affordable improvement.

- Ken Gillig

@gunrunnerjohn I thought we would want the air from the ports to go outside the boiler. If that's not the case, then it's not an issue.

We're currently waiting on bolts. Expected to arrive tomorrow, which is a day late. So cross your fingers. I hustled and tried to get the bolt holes aligned and then the delivery date changed on me. Maybe they came from Florida.

Normally the port would be in the same direction of the speaker.  That said, I'm not sure it would matter in this case.

In stationary speakers I've designed, i put the port going forward. I have seen others that put the port in the back, so it reflects off the wall.  I think Bose 900 series uses that design. And there are several other.

I just figure the boiler is holding some of the sound when there's no baffle, so to speak. It's basically a bad baffle. Seems like a good baffle should be ported outward towards our ears.

Luckily, 3D printing gives us the option to try both

Can anybody vouch for the accuracy of our smart phones as decibel meters?

I believe what can happen is if the enclosure (the shell) is too big for the speaker, it doesn't help it. By adding the baffle, you are helping direct the sound out and tuning the speaker somewhat. Porting that baffle would be another attempt at tuning the speaker further. I would guess that porting might not be needed here.

I have guessed at ports and got lucky, so I can say it may be worth a try. You can get good results without a port in a situation like this. Getting the enclosure volume correct, might be better! IMO. So why drill the frame if not needed.

It's not a huge speaker that needs to move a lot of air. Swapping out the speaker might be a further discussion. Lionel decided it wasn't worth the trouble, or someone (factory?) made a decision to leave it out.

I know there's a lot of members that would know this and more. Just my $.02.

Now if we could shoe horn a JBL 18" in there, porting might be wise.

I don't understand what is meant by the ports and the tubes and such but this is looking like solid progress. BRAVO!

I think just having a basic baffle that’s as big as can be that fits in the space and is sealed would be the foundation element that will help the most. Adding a port and internal structure to the baffle to support the port is more of a fun curiosity to see if there is a perceptible change in sound. $ .02

So I got the bolt holes aligned. I recorded whistle, safety valve, and bell with and without the baffle. I did not add an o-ring to ensure a seal. In place of that, I did grab some matches, lit them, let them a burn a minute, and blew them out. I did this three times since I can access the two sides and the front. I held them on the sides and front of the baffle and blew the whistle while they let off all the smoke. I didn't see any smoke being pushed away where the baffle meets the frame. So apparently the seal is sufficient. The basement smells good (or at least I like the smell haha)

I have some editing to do on this one. I couldn't do it in a single take. Give me a little time for that. I'm still learning to edit as evidenced by my Youtube Channel that hasn't been nominated for any cinematography awards

I have two more baffles printing now. I just added a port opposite the speaker. I had no idea what size to make the ports so I used the baffle diameter divided by 1.618. One has the result as the diameter of the port and the other has the result as the radius of the port. I'll be surprised if I can hear a difference and then I'll have quite a bit more experimenting to do.

I don't know if side ports would change anything and would like some opinions.

The ports I see on laptop speakers are much smaller than .6 diameter of the baffle!  The ports I reference for a .5x.75 speaker are around .1" in diameter!

I don't have much interest in pursuing the baffle beyond what I have. Figuring out how much clearance you have with zero visibility inside the boiler is a tedious process. I have to edit the video now.

Here's a photo of the finished product as it stands:

Where would I put the ports if I tried them?

My temptation would be to put a horizontal port across the top of the dome.  Inside if there's no room outside, or outside if possible.  From the laptop speaker examples I've seen as I used them, I think it's somewhat flexible where it would go.  it's not that big on most of those speakers, something around 1/8" diameter or more would probably make a difference.

The "port" I'm talking about is really a tube that's vented on one end inside the baffle and the other end is open to the outside.  It's not just a hole in the baffle.

Here's the comparison with the baffle seen above. I wish I had some professional recording equipment to capture the difference. But overall, I'm happy with the results. I can hear everything from across the layout. I'd like to hear what everybody thinks.

I wonder if that increases the air pressure @gunrunnerjohn I'll see if I have any small tubes laying around to use. I think I can just go right off the side of the baffle into the boiler.

Nice work!

As was expected, the baffle makes a significant difference in the sounds!  How this got omitted from a $2,500 locomotive is a total mystery to me!   I might say it baffles me!

I'm not sure how the old engine was arranged but the stanchions that hold the outside grab irons caused a headache for fitment. Accommodating them would resulted in a funny shaped baffle. Maybe they didn't want to have a new infection mold made. I suppose having the CAD model would be helpful for that but whatever. We're here now haha

@BillYo414 posted:

Here's the comparison with the baffle seen above. I wish I had some professional recording equipment to capture the difference. But overall, I'm happy with the results. I can hear everything from across the layout. I'd like to hear what everybody thinks.

I wonder if that increases the air pressure @gunrunnerjohn I'll see if I have any small tubes laying around to use. I think I can just go right off the side of the baffle into the boiler.

Excellent seems to help quite a bit!

Probably in November. I'll print some and I'll get more cap screws on hand. I'll work out a price too. Zero drilling required. The hardest part should be separating the tender from the locomotive, unless that's just an issue with mine in particular.

You'll just...

1. Flip the locomotive upside down on a towel
2. Remove the four bolts/screws holding the shell on
3. Carefully flip the locomotive and shell right side up
4. Remove the shell but leave all the wires plugged in where they are
5. Remove the four Phillips flange screws that hold the speaker in its pocket
6. Place the baffle over the speaker. There's a little slot for the wires to feed through. It goes towards the back of the locomotive and the wires just have to be centered so they lay in the slot and aren't pinched.
7. Screw the baffle down with the four includes cap screws (you'll need a hex key/allan wrench). This uses the existing holes and threads. You might need to scoot the zip tie forwards or backwards for the smoke unit wire bundle.
8. Wiggle the shell back on. Pro tip: the blow down smoke unit's intake may need guided into its hole under the sand dome. Took me a while to figure that out.
9. Put four bolts/screws back from the underside
10. Done!

If that's not clear, I could probably try to make a video. I just loathe taking this locomotive apart again I did it soooo many times during testing and filming. I could try out for a Formula 1 pit crew if the wheels came off with Allan wrenches haha but I will certainly do that if this helps.

I would consider installing them though I have my concerns with shipping. I'll do it for anybody local to the Ohio-Pennsylvania border if they don't feel comfortable. Truthfully, this is a bolt-on modification. I bet most people could handle this.

@BillYo414

Tremendous accomplishment, for yourself AND for all of the hobby!

Thank You!

Regards, Ken Gillig

@BillYo414 posted:

You'll just...

1. Flip the locomotive upside down on a towel
2. Remove the four bolts/screws holding the shell on
3. Carefully flip the locomotive and shell right side up
4. Remove the shell but leave all the wires plugged in where they are
5. Remove the four Phillips flange screws that hold the speaker in its pocket
6. Place the baffle over the speaker. There's a little slot for the wires to feed through. It goes towards the back of the locomotive and the wires just have to be centered so they lay in the slot and aren't pinched.
7. Screw the baffle down with the four includes cap screws (you'll need a hex key/allan wrench). This uses the existing holes and threads. You might need to scoot the zip tie forwards or backwards for the smoke unit wire bundle.
8. Wiggle the shell back on. Pro tip: the blow down smoke unit's intake may need guided into its hole under the sand dome. Took me a while to figure that out.
9. Put four bolts/screws back from the underside
10. Done!

Why, a cave man could do it! (I hope you do a video). Thanks for everything.

Haha I will work on a video.

@BillYo414 posted:

Here's the comparison with the baffle seen above. I wish I had some professional recording equipment to capture the difference. But overall, I'm happy with the results. I can hear everything from across the layout. I'd like to hear what everybody thinks.

I wonder if that increases the air pressure @gunrunnerjohn I'll see if I have any small tubes laying around to use. I think I can just go right off the side of the baffle into the boiler.

Awesome work @BillYo414! I really should try to start playing with 3D printing. With all my nonexistent free time 😅

Thanks! Your experiment motivated me to see this through @zhubl

All those grey structures in the background are parts of a blast furnace. They were 3D printed. I enjoy it because I'm not very good at precise work with my hands. It's also a great tool for making sure I can fix things around the house.

Nice work.

I just finished repairing an older visionline Challenger.  While I had it apart, I took a photo of its baffle for reference and included here.  You can see how they gained volume by extending the baffle forward a bit.

I will be listing in the for sale forum.  Contact me for details.

@BillYo414 posted:

I will be listing in the for sale forum.  Contact me for details.

Awesome, thanks for this! I will drop you an email too so you can get a potential head count.

The case is closed on the baffle and the first run is still printing. But I'm still interested in the possibility of a speaker upgrade. Here were the specs I got from the speaker and my calipers:

• 8 ohm
• 2 watt
• 1.5715" diameter at the largest point (about 39.9mm)
• about 0.7625" tall overall (about 19.3mm)
• connected on the side

So far I found this speaker. It's a little small, physically, but the frequency range is very wide. I didn't know what 120hz sounded like so I pulled up a frequency generator and it's low. I guess that won't help if the frequencies are simply not present in the sound file though. Nonetheless, I'm thinking it might be a good candidate for a test. Anybody else have any opinions on this speaker? Or any suggestions? Any guidelines on picking a new speaker?

I'm guessing most of those small speakers will be similar in performance.  I have a bunch of different speakers in my collection, and the ones that Lionel and ERR use compare very favorably in volume to the many others I've bought and tested over the years.  Truthfully, some of the ones I bought were so poor in volume that I didn't even keep them!  I guess the bottom line for me is, don't expect to find the "magic" speaker that will double the volume of the sound, you're limited by the tiny speaker cone as to how much volume you can actually produce.  There are some decent small speakers that have good volume, but they typically have sound engineered enclosures and cost a lot more than $5.  Some of the Tang Band speakers come to mind, but many require more power and there's a more limited selection in the 8 ohm impedance range.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm guessing most of those small speakers will be similar in performance.  I have a bunch of different speakers in my collection, and the ones that Lionel and ERR use compare very favorably in volume to the many others I've bought and tested over the years.  Truthfully, some of the ones I bought were so poor in volume that I didn't even keep them!  I guess the bottom line for me is, don't expect to find the "magic" speaker that will double the volume of the sound, you're limited by the tiny speaker cone as to how much volume you can actually produce.  There are some decent small speakers that have good volume, but they typically have sound engineered enclosures and cost a lot more than $5.  Some of the Tang Band speakers come to mind, but many require more power and there's a more limited selection in the 8 ohm impedance range.

Any options for a tiny inline amplifier that could be added? Might be a dumb question...

There's always a possibility of adding an amplifier, I'm sure Lionel doesn't do it for the simple reason that it costs a few bucks.