Weak Whistle on the Vision Line Big Boy

Good to know about speaker limitations @gunrunnerjohn. It might be a lost cost. I'll have to read up on these tang band, just for my own education.

Adding an amplifier might be overkill for this thing. It definitely is a project I won't pursue at the moment but I would encourage somebody else's curious mind to give it a shot.

I think I'll just install the baffle and consider myself a winner.

Bill just watched your video I noticed was published on youtube. Great for the baffle install and seeing how to take the boiler off.

@BillYo414 posted:

You'll just...

1. Flip the locomotive upside down on a towel
2. Remove the four bolts/screws holding the shell on
3. Carefully flip the locomotive and shell right side up
4. Remove the shell but leave all the wires plugged in where they are
5. Remove the four Phillips flange screws that hold the speaker in its pocket
6. Place the baffle over the speaker. There's a little slot for the wires to feed through. It goes towards the back of the locomotive and the wires just have to be centered so they lay in the slot and aren't pinched.
7. Screw the baffle down with the four includes cap screws (you'll need a hex key/allan wrench). This uses the existing holes and threads. You might need to scoot the zip tie forwards or backwards for the smoke unit wire bundle.
8. Wiggle the shell back on. Pro tip: the blow down smoke unit's intake may need guided into its hole under the sand dome. Took me a while to figure that out.
9. Put four bolts/screws back from the underside
10. Done!

Well, I just installed one of these, a couple of corrections/changes I'd suggest.

#1, the 3mm cap screws didn't fit, the actual thread size of the bolsters for the speaker screws are 2.5mm.  I couldn't get the 3mm cap screws screws to go in at all, but when I got some 2.5mm screws, they went in smoothly to the bottom of the bolster.  I think the Allen screws aren't the best choice for general use, everybody has a Phillips screwdriver.

#2, Take the two screws out of the base of the smoke unit and lay the smoke unit to the side.  This eliminates the risk of unplugging the smoke unit connectors and pulling a wire out.  Note that it was impossible to fit the baffle in place without moving the smoke unit wires, the wires were too short.  I also had to remove the ziptie from the wires to get them to reach over/around the baffle.  I used Kapton tape to secure the wires in place over the top of the baffle and around one side.  If the wires in my locomotive were 1/4" shorter, I'd have had to extend them.

The message here is, every one of these isn't going to be exactly the same, there are variations in how they get put together.  The short wires are one thing that must be different from Bill's example as the instructions would not work for my locomotive.

#1 I sure hope I sent out the right screws. I will go down to the basement next chance I get, take the locomotive apart again, and measure the screws in it. I can't imagine I forced a bigger screw in there because I turned the screws dozens of times in testing. The threads would have crumbled if it was wrong.

#2 I thought my video showed pulling the connector off the board, pulling the wire back out from under the board, then going topside. That should give you the length needed, unless each of these locomotives have a different length of wire. That would be disappointing. I thought a product numbering in the thousands and assembled in a factory would have the same length and routing of wire for each one.

I should have sent out 4-40 screws. The major diameter of the original screw was 0.108" or 2.75mm. #4 screws have a major diameter of 0.112" or 2.81mm.

The original screws have threads 0.15" long so it was tough to get a thread gauge on there but I came up with 40 tpi.

My concern is that when I went to check my fasteners, there was a box of 6-32 screws next to the 4-40. #6's have a 0.138" or 3.505mm size and would definitely not fit. It would have been easy for me to have put the wrong screws in the boxes.

So I can't tell from here what I sent. I can only guarantee that 4-40s fit in my locomotive. I expected metric but the numbers favored imperial so that's what I went with. They fit snug but not anything that made me second guess.

I'll make it right if I sent 6-32s.

@BillYo414 posted:

So I can't tell from here what I sent. I can only guarantee that 4-40s fit in my locomotive. I expected metric but the numbers favored imperial so that's what I went with. They fit snug but not anything that made me second guess.

They fit way too snug, that's why I stopped.  They shouldn't need that much torque going in.  Once you're run them in a couple of times, they make their own threads, but that's really not what you want happening.

The screws that Lionel were used to mount the speaker are 4-40 screws.  They were so short that they only had about one turn or so engaged.  However, when I examined the threads in the chassis mounting posts, they looked to be metric.  After seeing your supplied screws didn't fit properly, I tried the 2.5mm, they were a perfect fit.  It does appear that the factory used the wrong screws as well!  The smoke unit is also mounted with 2.5mm screws, further suggesting that was their standard for those mounting posts.  When I used the proper 2.5mm screws, they went in easily all the way to the bottom of the threads in the post.

@BillYo414 posted:

I'll make it right if I sent 6-32s.

6-32 screws will certainly not work, they're way too big!  If you want them to fit properly, send 2.5mm screws.  Look at one of the two screws that mount the plate under the smoke unit, that's the size the screws should be.

Where can I find the video of the installation and now I’m panicking that I received the wrong screws

@gunrunnerjohn mine did not fit snug. I didn't have to make any effort to put them in. What is the thread pitch on your screws? M2.5-0.45mm? How long are they?

@SteveMa here is the link:  Install Instructions

And there's no need to panic. You just allegedly need different screws, which I will take care of as soon as we know what they are.

Bill, thank you for making this kit. If the screws I received are wrong, I will make a correction, no biggie.

@BillYo414 posted:

@gunrunnerjohn mine did not fit snug. I didn't have to make any effort to put them in. What is the thread pitch on your screws? M2.5-0.45mm? How long are they?

@SteveMa here is the link:  Install Instructions

And there's no need to panic. You just allegedly need different screws, which I will take care of as soon as we know what they are.

I used M2.5/0.45 thread screws.  There exists an M2.5/0.35 thread, but I've never seen them used anywhere.  The screws I used were 8mm long, they worked perfectly.  I picked them to go past the top threads that Lionel buggered up with the wrong size screw and go well down the mounting post.

I actually did try screwing one of your 4-40 screws into the mounting post and it only went in about one turn and started to get hard to turn.  That's when I stopped and looked closely at what I had.

As I mentioned, the short washer head screws that Lionel used were indeed 4-40, but they are the wrong size for the threading in the mounting posts.  However, they were also only 1/8" long and only just engaged a single thread from the looks of them.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I used M2.5/0.45 thread screws.  There exists an M2.5/0.35 thread, but I've never seen them used anywhere.  The screws I used were 8mm long, they worked perfectly.  I picked them to go past the top threads that Lionel buggered up with the wrong size screw and go well down the mounting post.

I actually did try screwing one of your 4-40 screws into the mounting post and it only went in about one turn and started to get hard to turn.  That's when I stopped and looked closely at what I had.

As I mentioned, the short washer head screws that Lionel used were indeed 4-40, but they are the wrong size for the threading in the mounting posts.  However, they were also only 1/8" long and only just engaged a single thread from the looks of them.

Maybe the (sounds like) flimsy way that the Lionel China factory fastened down this speaker contributed to its poor sound output and, in my case at least, distorted sound of one of the whistle selections. It's like raspy static.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

Maybe the (sounds like) flimsy way that the Lionel China factory fastened down this speaker contributed to its poor sound output and, in my case at least, distorted sound of one of the whistle selections. It's like raspy static.

Well, if you warp the frame enough, it would cause some real ugly sound.

The principal improvement of the baffle IMO is more the added bass you get that's missing without the baffle.  I measured the sound output with and without the baffle, and it was only around 2db different.  However, to the ear, with the baffle gave much deeper tone which enhances the quality of the sound.

I have some M2.5x0.45mm on the way. They should arrive in a few days. The 0.45mm thread pitch converts to about 56.4 threads per inch I think. It seems odd that 56.4TPI and 40TPI are interchangeable. The metal must be like butter if they aren't interchangeable. I'll test them once they arrive in a few days and report back.

The good new is that there is another member that installed the baffle with the supplied screws and he had zero issues after he got the baffle oriented correctly. The orientation is tight but it was tricky getting a good measurement to get the hole location since they aren't square with each other. They're more like a trapezoid. He said the screws went right in.

Now there's the smoke unit wiring debacle. Rerouting the plug from under the board, to the top of the board should give ample length of wire for the baffle to fit, unless the length are different for each smoke unit. That would be disappointing but that's beyond my control. I only had one Big Boy to use to make my measurements and whatnot.

@BillYo414 posted:

I have some M2.5x0.45mm on the way. They should arrive in a few days. The 0.45mm thread pitch converts to about 56.4 threads per inch I think. It seems odd that 56.4TPI and 40TPI are interchangeable. The metal must be like butter if they aren't interchangeable. I'll test them once they arrive in a few days and report back.

I'd be the first to say that the pot metal isn't that robust, I've seen a lot of locomotives with the wrong screws firmly attached.  If you're only going a short distance into the threaded post, you'd be surprised what you can get away with.  I know in mine, the screw started needing more force that I knew should be required, that's why I started looking closer.

@BillYo414 posted:

Now there's the smoke unit wiring debacle. Rerouting the plug from under the board, to the top of the board should give ample length of wire for the baffle to fit, unless the length are different for each smoke unit. That would be disappointing but that's beyond my control. I only had one Big Boy to use to make my measurements and whatnot.

There was no way the wires in mine were going to reach without a wire stretcher.  Removing the cable tie gave just enough slack after I pulled all the slack everywhere else in the wires to the smoke unit side.  They're stretched almost as tight as a drum right now, no slack.   I didn't feel like extending them, that would have been more time consuming, so I just made do.

I do recommend not unplugging the connectors, I've seen dozens of Legacy locomotives with wires pulled out of the connectors by people trying to unplug them.  By removing the smoke unit mounting screws, I was able to get the baffle on without unplugging anything.

Well I got nothing for that. Using an o-ring pick to unplug the connector is easy enough if you go slow. I didn't have any glue on the board side so it was a matter of picking on each side a little at a time until it was free. I

I think we could talk a forum member through reinserting wires. We're a very capable group! Haha

Hello @BillYo414 and Others,

From info obtained from those who have installed or tried, has the baffle kit's instructions / tips been updated with any suggested improvements, and is there a standard recommended screw to be used?

Here's picture of my screw i received from Bill. Hex type, about 3/8 inch long.

@BillYo414 posted:

I think we could talk a forum member through reinserting wires. We're a very capable group! Haha

The problem is, it's not "reinserting wires", it's crimping the small 1.5mm pitch contacts used for most Legacy wiring. When folks are attempting to remote those connectors, they end up pulling a wire or two out of the contact.

First off, you have to have the fresh contacts and suitable a crimp tool  Next, you have to have the skill to properly crimping those small contacts.  I can tell you having crimping a ton of all sizes of connector contacts, the 1.5mm and smaller pitch contacts are not so easy to get right, it takes some practice and the right tools.

I bought these Pennington Forceps specifically to reach connectors that are not easy to grasp using other tools, specifically the smaller pitch connectors.

When you start pulling connectors in some of these locomotives, it's easy to turn a simple job into a not so simple job.

@Ken Gillig posted:

Hello @BillYo414 and Others,

From info obtained from those who have installed or tried, has the baffle kit's instructions / tips been updated with any suggested improvements, and is there a standard recommended screw to be used?

Here's picture of my screw i received from Bill. Hex type, about 3/8 inch long.

I ended up using M2.5x0.45mm screws 8mm in thread length.  They were a perfect fit for the mounting posts in my VL-BB speaker mount.

UPS says my screws should be here today. These are the M2.5x0.45mm threads. I'll try to find some time tonight to see if the threads are compatible.

Well, now that you've forced the 4-40 screws in there, these may not work nearly as well.

FYI to @BillYo414 and Others,

I have NOT yet tried any installation - I am awaiting direction from Bill on his new screws, and if needed any changes to instructions.

- Ken

Well no dice. They didn't show up today. It's saying the 16th now.

I’ve received the baffles from Bill that I ordered and I’m very impressed. I am waiting to install until the screw question is sorted out but im really grateful for him making these up!

Nice job!

@Raven87 thanks Steve. I appreciate it.

The baffle worked fine, I was too lazy to make my own since Bill had already done the heavy lifting.

Ok I finally got to one big boy 4012.
as far as the screws go it might’ve been a different thread at one point but the supplied screws went in without any hesitation. Now when you go to install the baffle the holes may be slightly off so if you don’t get the screw started straight then there might be a problem but I check all 4 holes before installing the baffle.

I also saw no real issue with smoke wires the whistle wiring from the SFC3 might be a little tight but no real issues that I could see.

Before

after

Looks good Zachariah.

It's odd that the wires were shorter in mine, must have been they were running at the end of the spool.

I have been following this thread, and find it very interesting, although I don't own one of these new Lionel monsters.

Just asking....in the photo posted by  Zachariah, will the wires going around the speaker baffle (instead of over the speaker) fit inside the engine body, or will they get "pinched" between the chassis frame and body???

Peter......Buco Australia.

@Buco posted:

I have been following this thread, and find it very interesting, although I don't own one of these new Lionel monsters.

Just asking....in the photo posted by  Zachariah, will the wires going around the speaker baffle (instead of over the speaker) fit inside the engine body, or will they get "pinched" between the chassis frame and body???

Peter......Buco Australia.

They'll fit, don't worry. You just push them in as you close the body.

@Buco posted:

I have been following this thread, and find it very interesting, although I don't own one of these new Lionel monsters.

Just asking....in the photo posted by  Zachariah, will the wires going around the speaker baffle (instead of over the speaker) fit inside the engine body, or will they get "pinched" between the chassis frame and body???

Peter......Buco Australia.

I had the same thought when I ran them so I watched them very close and I had no problem, didn’t even have shove them back as I reassembled

I appreciate the feedback. I'm glad to hear the wire thing sounds isolated. The variation is still surprising for financial reasons.

The top screw is 4-40. The bottom screw is M2.5x0.45mm. The threads aren't as close as I expected. I thought this would be a case of threads coincidentally being close enough to work. I guess I'm getting my education in small fasteners.

I'm going to take my Big Boy apart for the 47th time tomorrow and try the M2.5x0.45mm just for kicks. Perhaps I'll find the 4-40 threads crumble when the M2.5x0.45mm threads go in.

It is surprising how much size variation there is between them. I would think only one should fit but it will interesting to see what works for you.

Do you have one of the original screws to have a side by side pic? Obviously it would be too short but it would be interesting to see that?

I'm not sure why I didn't check that @Raven87.

Well it is difficult to get the picture because of the head size on the original screw. But the threads do match when I hold them up. So the screws that held the speaker down were definitely 4-40.

@BillYo414 posted:

I'm not sure why I didn't check that @Raven87.

Well it is difficult to get the picture because of the head size on the original screw. But the threads do match when I hold them up. So the screws that held the speaker down were definitely 4-40.

I agree Bill - they sure look like identical threads to me.

FWIW, I clearly stated that the screws that Lionel actually used to mount the speaker were indeed 4-40 thread.  I also observed they were very short and barely engaged at most a couple of threads on the mounting post.  However, the actual threading of the mounting posts in the locomotive are M2.5x0.45mm.  Yes, you can screw the 4-40 screws into them, but they end up just making their own threads.

Well this is a confusing case. The M2.5x0.45mm screws thread into the holes for the speaker. Before and after testing them, the 4-40 screws also thread into the same holes. I guess these threads are compatible. The M2.5x0.45mm took enough force that I would have stopped if it was my first try at putting them in but these are uncommon circumstances so I forced it. Apparently it was just cutting through the mangled threads from using a 4-40 but I can't say that with certainty. It's worth mentioning that I didn't encounter this resistance when I originally put the 4-40s in.

So then I took out the Phillips head screws that hold the smoke unit in place:

Removal of the smoke is definitely going to be easier than removing a cable from the board and rerouting it. No contest.

These threads engage about an 1/8". I held them up to our other candidate screws and these are definitely 4-40. The M2.5x0.45mm screw gets hard to turn after two turns.

After that, I put the 4-40 into the speaker hole so the head was still sticking up enough to grab with needle nose pliers. Then I tried to pull the screw out. I did the same thing with the M2.5x0.45mm screw. Neither pulled out. If they cut their own threads, they did a great job and I'm very proud of them for sticking to their guns and being themselves.

With that said, I would say use the screws I provided. I will send out M2.5x0.45mm if anybody would feel more comfortable having them on hand before beginning the installation. Just shoot me an email. Those of you with mechanical experience could comment if you think it's too snug when you try it.

Beyond that/in summary, sounds like the tips and tricks are to

- Mind your baffle orientation. Might take a few tries before everything goes together as intended.

- Be gentle if you choose to unplug the cable from the board and reroute it.

- Alternatively, I would try what I think @gunrunnerjohn said and remove the smoke unit (one screw on each side of the smoke unit), slide the baffle in place, screw it down, then reinstall the smoke unit. Hopefully the wires reach over top or around the baffle. You might need to cut or move the zip tie. If that doesn't work, you're either rerouting wires as explained in the YouTube video, or you're extending them. Extending would be tedious so let's hope nobody encounters that situation.

I apologize for the delays. I thought I did my diligence and had the details worked out. I would not have volunteered to produce these things for people if I knew it wasn't going to turn out straight forward. I'm generally cautious in this modern society we live in but hopefully nobody will sue me if things go sideways. I thought this was a simple project but I guess I missed some details. Luckily, I got some experience to add to my toolbox now. Now I know for next time.

For anybody's future reference, the boiler is about 1.88" at the widest point in the speaker area. I figured I would make a rough measurement of it while we're here in case some future Search user needs the info.

Fine job Bill. Great info and again, let’s not lose sight that the BAFFLE is what is needed and you did that. The screws, while maybe a slight issue, are only an inconvenience in getting them right.

The baffle was what we needed and you did that. Even if I would have to RTV it place, it’s better than NO baffle at all.
👍👍👍

Looking at the parts breakdown for the previous run’s VL BBs I see they used the 4-40 screws a lot. (I couldn’t find a parts breakdown for this recent run.)