@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:I don't own enough Lionel to be knowledgeable on upgrading sound files like you can do with MTH DCS.
Only Lionel can change anything about the sounds.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:What I don't understand is how they could screw up the sound level of the file between the versions!
You and me both. I sent a video of all 3 versions 2014,2019, and 2023 and I was just flat told that’s how this one was designed. That’s sad if you ask me.
@zhubl posted:You and me both. I sent a video of all 3 versions 2014,2019, and 2023 and I was just flat told that’s how this one was designed. That’s sad if you ask me.
I think I'm keeping my 2014 versions, they sound great! Sound was what really sold me on the VL-BB ten years ago, how they screwed that up this time totally escapes me! 
@Ron Casamento posted:As. You know the new big boy, has five different whistles. What is interesting if you go to the fourth whistle in consecutive order, you will noise that is definitely louder than the original #1 whistle. So it kind of makes sense that it could be the file file.
My 2023 BB, I think it's the 4th whistle sounds like garbage. There is no fix for the whistle sound. All the whistle versions are weak, with chuffing or without. The only fix for it would be if Lionel creates and releases new sound boards for the VL BB, which is doubtful because they would have to admit fault. The whistle sound from the locomotive is much worse than the tender. The only hope for improvement is if a sound baffle is made for the locomotive that helps clean up the sound from it. I'm going to try it when it is available and if it doesn't help enough then I am going to get rid of this locomotive.
The biggest issue IMHO is that this reveals Lionel Legacy's abject deficiencies re: sound. In 2024, there is absolutely zero technical reason to disallow owners to upload their own sounds. The factory sounds should be burned into ROM in case the engine needs to be reset to the factory settings, but they need to design the boards so we can upload whatever sounds we want. This has been an issue for many years now.
In software, the concept is called "vendor lock-in." Once you buy into the system, you have no choice but to do things the vendor's way. Your investment only works with the vendor's tools, by design, so there are no other options. This gets amplified when there are limited or no other vendors, which is the situation we currently have, at least for 3R electronics. If you don't like it -- go pound sand. The discontinuation of hardware handsets is another example of this.
BTW, I have spent many thousands of dollars on Lionel locos over the last five+ years. I'm a current customer who wants to buy more. I hope they listen.
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:My 2023 BB, I think it's the 4th whistle sounds like garbage. There is no fix for the whistle sound. All the whistle versions are weak, with chuffing or without. The only fix for it would be if Lionel creates and releases new sound boards for the VL BB, which is doubtful because they would have to admit fault. The whistle sound from the locomotive is much worse than the tender. The only hope for improvement is if a sound baffle is made for the locomotive that helps clean up the sound from it. I'm going to try it when it is available and if it doesn't help enough then I am going to get rid of this locomotive.
I don't think they need new boards. I'm sure the chipset (EPROM = Erasable Program Read Only Memory) can be reprogrammed for a different sound file, just like MTH DCS. (ROM = Read Only Memory) cannot be changed as it's "Read Only"). Lionel chooses to "lock you in" as BlueFeather pointed out. Mike Wolf was more of "friendly" manufacturer. What I mean by that is, he allowed his customers to download for free, the app to reprogram their sound sets, the sound files, which ever they wanted, and went a step further to sell PS2 & 3 boards to either replace a faulty board themselves or upgrade a older Proto 1 system. Lionel will not do that, I hope they do. I say Lionel will not do that as their main competitor is gone, and they have more leverage to charge higher costs and "lock in" their customers. What upsets me more is in this case, you pay $2600.00 for a Vison Line locomotive and if the sound is not right, Lionel does not care. They could release a new sound file and allow Lionel repair centers to do the upgrade and us owners only have to pay a reasonable amount to the Lionel tech who upgrades the engine. Will Lionel do it?
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:I don't think they need new boards. I'm sure the chipset (EPROM = Erasable Program Read Only Memory) can be reprogrammed for a different sound file, just like MTH DCS. (ROM = Read Only Memory) cannot be changed as it's "Read Only"). Lionel chooses to "lock you in" as BlueFeather pointed out. Mike Wolf was more of "friendly" manufacturer. What I mean by that is, he allowed his customers to download for free, the app to reprogram their sound sets, the sound files, which ever they wanted, and went a step further to sell PS2 & 3 boards to either replace a faulty board themselves or upgrade a older Proto 1 system. Lionel will not do that, I hope they do. I say Lionel will not do that as their main competitor is gone, and they have more leverage to charge higher costs and "lock in" their customers. What upsets me more is in this case, you pay $2600.00 for a Vison Line locomotive and if the sound is not right, Lionel does not care. They could release a new sound file and allow Lionel repair centers to do the upgrade and us owners only have to pay a reasonable amount to the Lionel tech who upgrades the engine. Will Lionel do it?
I respectfully kind of have to disagree. I don't know of a single Lionel product that has removable EPROMs that you can reprogram unless you know something I don't, which is entirely possible. If you're going to do that you might as well replace the sound MB it's mounted on. Reprograming the chip would also probably require special equipment. I think a whole sound MB would be simpler and the way Lionel would go if they were to do it, which I don't think they will. I don't know if an individual EPROM would require soldering. But if Lionel went the route of releasing EPROMs with improved sound files then a repair person would need to have circuit board soldering skills. A replacement MB would just simply unplug the old and plug in the new.
What Mike Wolf did does not really apply to this. Lionel is like the Apple Computer of electric trains in that they make things as non-user serviceable as possible. MTH is more like the PC of electric trains with more friendly plug and play functionality.
@BlueFeather posted:The biggest issue IMHO is that this reveals Lionel Legacy's abject deficiencies re: sound. In 2024, there is absolutely zero technical reason to disallow owners to upload their own sounds. The factory sounds should be burned into ROM in case the engine needs to be reset to the factory settings, but they need to design the boards so we can upload whatever sounds we want. This has been an issue for many years now.
Well, Lionel would have to totally redesign their whole sound board to do that. In addition, since they don't have a 2-way communications, making a downloadable sound board would be a challenge. The logical way would be to have a BlueTooth connection to the sound board and a app that connects to do the file loading. However, that would also require them to make the sound files available.
That ain't happening any time soon unless Lionel really changes their thinking.
Dave69... Electronics is my specialty. I received my AS in Electronic Engineering and B.S in Automated Manufacturing Technology. I ended up working in IT for the last 28 years and recently retired as a Senior System Engineer. So... A ROM (Read Only Memory) chip is programed once when it's made and can never be re-programmed or updated. A EPROM (Erasable Programable Read Only Memory) chip can be re-programmed, erased, over and over again. Yes, Lionel and MTH use different technology and operating systems. But at the end of the day, their still electronics and microprocessors. I am sure Lionel uses a EPROM chip to program their sound system. So it can take a new sound file. When they replace their boards due to malfunction, they dump a sound/operating file into the chip which is on their board. It would be too cost prohibitive to have the chip maker make a different chip of each locomotive, road name, and cab number that has specific dialog to that locomotive.
As for MTH, they choose to let the consumer download sound files and App to dump into locomotive and you use a Serial to USB for digital file transfer from PC to locomotive. in fact, if you have ever done this, you can see the first process in the app is erasing the memory block on the EPROM chip and re-writing new data to the chip.
And yes, you can have a MAC run Windows and vise versa. It cannot be done "over the counter" and it's illegal as MAC (Apple is proprietary architecture ) Steve Jobs, like Lionel wanted to lock Apple users in using their hardware and software and if you were an Apple software vendor, Steve Jobs (now Tim Cook) gets a slice of the pie! And.... Intel platform that uses Windows can be made to run MAC OS. Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Paul Allen ( Microsoft Founders) choose "open architecture" meaning you can buy different motherboards, modems, video cards, etc. And you can even buy a PC with an AMD microprocessor. that will run Windows. Microsoft chose "open architecture" It all comes down to choice. In my opinion Microsoft was more friendly to their consumers. Lionel chose to make their systems proprietary and Mike Wolf decided to "open it up" to the consumer. Which is more "friendly" in my opinion.
Definition of ROM Memory chip:
Definition of EPROM:
MAC OS can run on a Windows based Intel platform:
And vise versa:
Attachments
Images (4)
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, Lionel would have to totally redesign their whole sound board to do that. In addition, since they don't have a 2-way communications, making a downloadable sound board would be a challenge. The logical way would be to have a BlueTooth connection to the sound board and a app that connects to do the file loading. However, that would also require them to make the sound files available.
That ain't happening any time soon unless Lionel really changes their thinking.
You are quite correct. In Lionel's thinking, this is a feature, not a bug. They want people to keep buying new versions of the same prototype as they come out. Oh, the whistle was weak on the 2023 VL Big Boy? Maybe when they launch the 2027 VL Big Boy it will have "Improved Whistle Effect" as a selling point so everyone dumps their four year old model and buys it again.
BTW, I do like my new VL Big Boy, weak whistle notwithstanding, and would buy it again even if I knew about it going in. But with a different sound architecture like MTH or even DCC, I could address this issue myself.
I don't disagree with you, for the prices they're charging, we should have more control over stuff like this.
Hello all. I know I’m late to the game. I posted this issue a while back. I too have the latest VL Big Boy #4019. My complaint is the chuff volume and blowdown and other sounds are loud, the whistle sound is weak. Has anyone gotten a solution from Lionel on a baffle or any forum user made a baffle for sale?
Thank you gents!
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:Hello all. I know I’m late to the game. I posted this issue a while back. I too have the latest VL Big Boy #4019. My complaint is the chuff volume and blowdown and other sounds are loud, the whistle sound is weak. Has anyone gotten a solution from Lionel on a baffle or any forum user made a baffle for sale?
Thank you gents!
This is my observation with mine as well.
I have been dragging my feet and still haven't finished my design to 3D print. I'll work on my design a bit tonight.
@BillYo414 posted:I have been dragging my feet and still haven't finished my design to 3D print. I'll work on my design a bit tonight.
That would be great! The whistle is a big disappointment. That model, if any of them, should have a good loud whistle.
It's definitely a short coming. I'm also not impressed with the way the tender wheels work. It seems like the single piece design makes it a bit rough going through switches and crossings but that's another topic for another day. I did some tweaking last night but I need to open the Big Boy up to measure one last time. I won't have time for that tonight. Hopefully tomorrow.
@BillYo414 posted:I have been dragging my feet and still haven't finished my design to 3D print. I'll work on my design a bit tonight.
Are you working on a speaker baffle for the 2023 VL-BB? I'd be very interested in that project! 
@gunrunnerjohn yes. I already bought a speaker baffle from one of the older VL-BB and reverse engineered. I'm going to make time to modify it and make some modified versions. It sounds like there's some decent demand for them.
I forgot to post this: I took my 2023 VL BB to my club and another member took his JLC BB #4023 (not sure what year) and we compared sounds, here are the findings, engine to engine...
- Chuff sound volume is the same, his JLC has a bit more bass, sounds a little bit better, but not by much
- Random steam sounds are on par, as far as volume is concerned
- When his JLC is chugging, the whistle sound is the same as mine as far as deep throaty sound, but the volume is way, way louder
- If I could base volume on a number between 1to10. His JLC chuff volume would be a "7" and whistle volume a "10" based on loudness
- My 2023 VL BB on a scale of 1 to 10, my chuff volume would be a "7" and whistle volume be a 4 or 5
- His JLC does not have blowdown or pop off, so we could not compare those, but my VL BB volume on those sounds are great, nice and loud, no complaints
I hate to beat a dead horse, but is there a over whelming opinion that it is actually a baffle that would help this low volume whistle and not a sound file? Again, my only complaint is low volume on whistle, all other sounds are loud and great sounding. If I put in a baffle then all sounds are increased. Meaning my chuff is louder and perhaps more "bass" as well as pop off sound and blowdown. Then maybe my whistle is still not as loud as chuff? The whistle when used should overwhelm the chuff sound. It's hard to tell, but it seems to me that all sounds come out of all 3 speakers. I could be wrong, maybe someone can chime in to verify.
This is my first and only VL and I paid allot of money just like you all of you. And am a bit disappointed that such a beautiful engine with many nice features has little short comings and Lionel will not do anything about it.
GunrunnerJohn, you are correct, if MTH used better speakers and baffles, they would have better sounding steam engines.
Thanks gents!
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:Dave69... Electronics is my specialty.
[snip]. I am sure Lionel uses a EPROM chip to program their sound system. So it can take a new sound file.
EPROM? Maybe last century.... While I can't speak to the sound mixes, the technology used is "flash"! Yes the boards are programmable, per loco / accessory, etc. There is no simple way or interface to the sound flash chip to program it remotely. As it is, it takes a really long time to program the sound set. Even Over the Air (OTA), the bandwidth is too low. (the interface from the BLE module to the main CPU is very slow)
Additionally, the sounds are not simple "wav" like files programmed into the sound flash chip. There are a lot of code related behaviors in addition to the sound itself, processed through a program that compresses all of the control and sound related bits that make the actual sounds. The process is quite complicated to end up with the final binary to program the sound flash chip.
IMHO, I don't believe it has much to do with "locking it down", as it is with the complexity to allow a user to make changes to the sounds. I looked into ways to reprogram the entire locomotive control and sound system in the field, and honestly the prototypes we made, did not end up being practical. Where it was possible, Lionel did manage to make several things up-gradable via OTA, the Universal Remote, the Legacy/Cab2/Base3, etc. Maybe the future technology improvements will make this possible, Dave has a great team always looking for ways to offer more.
Dr ZW.
Dr. ZW, a retired Lionel engineer.
I don't wish to get in a debate on the differences between EEPROM and Flash memory. There the same as far as re-writable memory is concerned. Flash is cheaper and cannot hold as much memory as EEPROM. Flash came from EEPROM and in technical terms are the same with exception on how they hold memory (blocks) and are read/written.
And as far as flashing sound files, Mike Wolf decided he would open up his Proto 2/3 system to end users like us to reprogram different sound files into our engines. We do not use OTA (over the air). We use a PC to connect a USB to 9 pin serial cable, run a MTH program, place the engine on track, apply power and download or "flash" a new sound file to the locomotive. This has been done for many years.
To get back on topic, I'm sure Lionel is using a EEPROM/Flash memory system to hold their sound/control files, obviously in a different format that is proprietary technology. It would make good sense and provide good customer service for them allow a purchaser of a $2600+ engine to RMA the engine back and re-program an improved sound file at no cost. Or at least allow Lionel authorized repair centers to do the job. At this point, I'm hopeful I can get a baffle to place over the speaker and see if it helps. I just think it will amplify all sounds, perhaps with more bass on the chuff sound, but my whistle will still be at a lower volume than the chuff.
From Wikipedia:
Attachments
Images (1)
All I got done was a prototype print tonight. I didn't have time to disassemble the Big Boy so I guessed at the screw location. That's really a negligible detail though. I mostly made changes to height and shape from the original baffle found in the earlier Big Boys. If it fits, I'll deal with the screw holes.
With that said, am I correct to reason that different sound frequencies require different baffle depths? The baffle that @zhubl made looks to be about half the height of the original (I have no idea obviously) and I was wondering if that matters. The original baffle is just under 7/8" deep. I just printed one that is just under 5/8". How does the distance from the speaker to the baffle face affect the sound?
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:Dr. ZW, a retired Lionel engineer.
I'm hopeful I can get a baffle to place over the speaker and see if it helps. I just think it will amplify all sounds, perhaps with more bass on the chuff sound, but my whistle will still be at a lower volume than the chuff.
I think the steam whistle sound is largely emitted from the speaker in the locomotive and the other sounds mostly come from the tender speakers so a baffle in the locomotive may amplify mostly the whistle sound. I would like to see Lionel fix this for free. I think it would generate good customer will as a return benefit to Lionel. But also I think Lionel should respect the investment people made in this, and Lionel built and sold it and should want to make it right.
@BillYo414 posted:All I got done was a prototype print tonight. I didn't have time to disassemble the Big Boy so I guessed at the screw location. That's really a negligible detail though. I mostly made changes to height and shape from the original baffle found in the earlier Big Boys. If it fits, I'll deal with the screw holes.
With that said, am I correct to reason that different sound frequencies require different baffle depths? The baffle that @zhubl made looks to be about half the height of the original (I have no idea obviously) and I was wondering if that matters. The original baffle is just under 7/8" deep. I just printed one that is just under 5/8". How does the distance from the speaker to the baffle face affect the sound?
Honestly in my crude attempt I took a regular Lionel baffle and just sealed it over the speaker. I ain’t proud of it but it bothered me enough I needed to know if it helped. Like I’ve said it definitely does but I still think something else was amiss in the sound engineering
Attachments
Images (1)
Videos (1)
@BillYo414 posted:All I got done was a prototype print tonight. I didn't have time to disassemble the Big Boy so I guessed at the screw location. That's really a negligible detail though. I mostly made changes to height and shape from the original baffle found in the earlier Big Boys. If it fits, I'll deal with the screw holes.
With that said, am I correct to reason that different sound frequencies require different baffle depths? The baffle that @zhubl made looks to be about half the height of the original (I have no idea obviously) and I was wondering if that matters. The original baffle is just under 7/8" deep. I just printed one that is just under 5/8". How does the distance from the speaker to the baffle face affect the sound?
The larger the baffle volume, the better the sound. Make the baffle as large as you can.
Case in point. Compare a small bookshelf to a floor standing speaker.
FWIW, I don't think a simple sound file change will change much or even be possible. The entire sound file is somewhat different between the earlier 2014 release and the 2023 release. What I noticed is much more pop off sounds in the recent release. I think John has the right idea, increasing the audio Amp. Just too much energy is needed for all the different sounds - the whistle, chuff, blowdown, pop off, etc.
That said, adding the baffle will improve the sound IMO. It is simple and not very expensive and easy to do. Will it be as good as the 2014 version? I don't believe so. But still worth the effort.
Can the speaker in the 2023 VL BB's be swapped for the speaker used in the original 2014 release? Then you could use the 2014 baffle.
Hi OGR Members,
I too recently have the 2023 BB with weak sound. The baffle experiment above by Zachariah seems to be a worthy stop- gap. Spending $2600 for the whispers coming out of 4014 is embarrassing - shame on me for buying before all this bad Big Boy sound came out!
I am not in tune with OGR - Lionel relationship politics but … could the OGR put a formal plea, request, position opinion, whatever in to Lionel management to strongly call for an action given the impact of OGR users on Lionel’s future sales.
At a minimum Lionel could be asked by OGR for a new baffle update well designed for good sound.
- Ken
@DaveGG does the shape of the baffle matter? I could add a lot of volume but it would become an irregularly shaped object. My gut says it needs to be parallel with the direction the speaker moves.
One could replace the speaker with one of the same size, but more efficient (louder volume with same wattage input). I have started to looked at this and the there are some speakers available that are used in sound bars for video/TVs. You have to look at the db level with a stated wattage input. Typical rating would be ~70 db (or higher) at a given wattage and at a stated distance. For larger audio speaker, it might be 80-90 db at one watt input and one meter distance. The lower cost speakers do not list this specification, but just list a wattage rating. The simple stated wattage means the speaker can handle that wattage input for a set time, and that time is very short until they will "blow".
Regarding the baffle tests/performance - One thing to remember is the the sound performance is different with the shell on and with the shell off. The shell does act a bit like a (poor) baffle. (Based on my actual tests.) Please note, adding a sealed baffle will improve the sound. Even using a cardboard tube baffle.
By the way, some audio speakers use a hardened cardboard baffle in their construction.
Please see my earlier video using a cardboard baffle for reference.
I never thought of trying a more efficient speaker. That would be worth exploring. I'll continue to get the baffle arranged. I can tinker with different shapes once I know what fits and get the screws laid out. I hope I have the right screws on handle and the holes are already tapped.
I have to upgrade a light switch tonight in the basement and my wife is going to help me clean up a bit. I had lights installed in the model railroad area and now it's time to make it look a little more respectable by getting clutter put away from the room and from the layout itself. I have more or less kept the layout hidden from people and on Youtube because it's so chaotic. I should have a half hour at the end of the night to pop the shell off and test fit the first baffle prototype.
@BillYo414 posted:@DaveGG does the shape of the baffle matter? I could add a lot of volume but it would become an irregularly shaped object. My gut says it needs to be parallel with the direction the speaker moves.
Pretty sure that's not true. Some of the best sounding speakers I've seen in a very small size are laptop speakers. They have all sorts of odd shaped baffles, but they work really well! Most laptop speakers have amazing volume for the size of the speaker and enclosure, and quite decent frequency response range for the size as well.
Well that's good news @gunrunnerjohn! I wasn't sure how it worked. We have more options available if we don't need a specific shape.
@BillYo414 posted:Well that's good news @gunrunnerjohn! I wasn't sure how it worked. We have more options available if we don't need a specific shape.
Here's an image search on laptop internal speaker enclosures, note some of the odd shapes.
The principal job of the baffle is to keep the front and rear of the speaker cone separated. It also sometimes has ports to minimize compression of the air in the rear of the speaker.
That's good news indeed. I wonder if there's a golden ratio of baffle volume to speak cone area or something.
@BillYo414 posted:That's good news indeed. I wonder if there's a golden ratio of baffle volume to speak cone area or something.
Actually, in order to really compute the ideal baffle volume and shape, the computations are apparently pretty complex.
One of many references in Speaker Baffle Design.
Other references refer to ported speakers as providing more volume due to less compression of the air at the rear of the speaker. I know a lot of the little laptop speakers I've used in small stuff do have ports, so apparently that's a staple of many laptops to get more volume.
Bottom line is in almost any case, for the small speakers we use, a baffle of almost any kind will be an improvement.
John,
Good info!
I would guess if you wanted to port the baffle, you could. The port size is strongly related to baffle volume. And the port would not be just a hole, but a sized tublyer port. And with the exist of the port, in this case, down so the sound could escape.
I do like your note about laptop speakers. That might be a great option, with the baffle being the biggest improvement.
Yep, on all the little laptop speakers, the ports are a tube molded in, not just a hole in the case. I don't pretend to know the specifics of exactly all the design criteria, I just tinker until I get the result I want.
Well my video exceeded the size limit. Here is the video.
It may not have been a perfect test because I didn't test it with a shell on at all but it's definitely a "bigger" sound with this baffle. I would say it's filler. The fit isn't perfect. I had to press down pretty hard. But that's just a matter of tweaking the dimensions. I got one out of four screw holes to match haha
There's a positive difference. Just going to take some refining of the details to make it solid.
Next steps are to get the fit perfect, get some sort of gasket material, and measure up the screws so I can get longer screws.
Video Embedded:
Here is @BillYo414 's video...
And nice work by the way. A definite difference!
Thanks @MartyE. I couldn't figure it out on mobile.
