What 21" Passenger Cars would you like to see Lionel Produce?

Even at that, 21" long passenger equipment just might not care for curves sharper than 072. Even if they don't derail, the ends of the cars might tend to touch on the insides of such sharp curves. Then there is always the really big overhang at the middle of each car, just like those huge long auto rack cars.

Hot is right.  I have minimum 60" radius (O-120 on this forum) and I would never run 80 foot passenger cars on that loop.  I have an articulated Daylight coach (each half is maybe 66 feet scale length, or 16 + inches) and I had to lengthen the distance of the articulated joint to get them safely around 74" radius (O-148).

 

21" cars just do not look right on tinplate curves.  15" cars look better, and would match a shortened Challenger.  That's opinion, of course - you may like track hanging out in the middle of a long car.

Raise a glass and cheers to Lionel for getting into the scale passenger car market!  We'll have to wait for delivery or a train meet display to see how detailed they'll actually be.  But from what I've heard and the descriptions I've read, I believe these will be very nice cars.

 

Although the initial road name offerings do not interest me (except for the Wabash and maybe the Southern set….. I know, I get weak for passenger equipment!), I will be interested to see how they look to determine future purchases.

 

What I'd like to see are 21" scale:

 

Amtrak Acela set (ooooo, yeah… dig it!)

 

Amtrak Amfleet cars and Viewliner sleepers and diners. (with an E60 or Cities Sprinter ACS-64 to go with them)

 

A California Zephyr set (I was late to the Atlas party, so I just got a few unlettered cars to make an Office Car Special for my railroad since their release was so delayed)

 

Atlantic Coast Line Champion

 

Penn Central Broadway Limited (And a Legacy PC Black Jack GG1 to go with it.  I just picked up a MTH passenger set, but I'd go for the scale cars for this)

Metroliners: PRR, Penn Central, Amtrak

 

Rail Diesel Cars (RDC) sets (any and all roads)

 

Will Lionel ever produce these sets?

Would Atlas O, Golden Gate Depot or perhaps MTH throw their hat into the ring?!

 

Who will be first to reel me in??!!  

 

Tune in next week (or next year)!!  

 

Same Bat-time, same Bat- Forum!!

I love the Postwar and modern remakes of the 6464s and I also love the scale PS1s but i thought the Postwar Scale cars were the biggest stinkers Lionel ever offered.

But, this made me think of something. I would love to see the postwar Lionel Lines Madison cars offered as "Scale" 21" cars. I wonder those would be a hit or a complete flop?

You know they did these in 18" in the 50th Anniversary set pulled by the J3a Hudson lettered Lionel Lines.

K-Line did a similar set but lettered New York Central. Both a nice sets. As for 21" cars, who knows.

 

 

Pete

None unless they make an attempt to get it right

I've seen the 50th Anniv. set, but I have never seen the cars from it for sale. I saw the complete set with the hudson for sale once but it was wayyy more than I wanted to pay and I'm not in the market for a Lionel Hudson.

I saw the K Line cars for the first time last year at York. They were very cool and I would probably pick those up if the price was right.

 

None, could not run them except back and forth on a straight away.  Now if you want to make something those of us who don't have 55 foot wide basements can run I would like something in NJ transit that isn't toy like.

Seems a bit odd, given than the GGD cars cost twice as much as the Lionel cars. 

Wouldn't it be fair to wait and see just what the prices will REALLY be on the Lionel product, plus the accuracy of said product, before making a generalization like that?

 

It's not really an apples to apples comparison.  The GGD cars are aluminum, highly researched with correct floor plans and interiors.  To produce cars from the old K-Line tooling, it would be over $200 a car as well and while they are nice cars they are generic cars.

 

A more accurate comparison would be the plastic GGD heavyweight cars that currently run about $150 each or the Atlas CZ cars that are in about the same price range.

 

It is safe to say that the days of newly tooled aluminum car sets are likely numbered as the price point to produce them is getting beyond what the market will pay for them.

What is a 21 inch passenger car?   

 

Passenger cars were 60 feet long (in some rare instances), 70 feet long, or 80 feet long.   and that was the measurement between the vestibules (ie the vestibule was not included).    

 

So if Lionel is going to make models of real passenger cars, they should be talking in those terms and manufacturing to meet what they say.

 

According to the 2015 catalog specs, the new Lionel 21" passenger cars will come with the unique Lionel Kinematic Coupler, the same one that is on the 24" Auto Racks.  Both cars operate O-54 and above according the catalog.  I would say there is no presumption they could operate on O-31.

 

From personal experience, the 24" auto racks work very well on O-72 and above.  The Kinematic with its "sliding Y" arrangement (for lack of a picture right now) allows the cars' inner edges to easily clear each other even in crossovers.  Based on that, the similar equipped 21" P-cars should be a breeze to operate on O-54 and up. 

 

I hope that helps.

Best regards,

Bryan

1.  Waiting for a delivery or post-production meet is not an option for the impatient or those like me who know what mainly happens on price in the secondary market. That aside, once Lionel have decided on individual car details they could tell us. 3rd Rail/GGD often post the 3D drawings they are building to, as they did at an early stage with the GM Train of Tomorrow. I was on the fence about that set until I saw the drawings.

 

2.  Lionel has of course already done the 21" Acela cars and they are, IMHO, the finest 3 rail passenger cars ever manufactured as far as interior detail goes. I recall the fateful words from the 2005 catalog:

 

"Under official license from Amtrak, this painstakingly accurate replica comes to life with rivet-for-rivet detailing taken directly from Bombardier blueprints and Amtrak painting manuals."

 

Lionel was going to re-issue an Acela set but it got pulled about three years ago even though they had scrapped the troublesome "tilt" function. These cars are ABS and I assume Lionel has still got the tooling for them so some of us hope for re-issue.

 

3.  Hasn't 3rd Rail already done (and very recently) some RDCs? They don't interest me but they looked good in Scott Mann's preview video.

 

 

My layout is only 14' wide (39' long) and has 0120/0128/0138 curves at one end and 080/089 at the other. I have "some" 072 sectional (minimum) pieces here and there. It's all a matter of priorities for your track plan.

 

The new Lionel Kinematic Coupler are very nice. I'd like to see them offered as separate sale items. I have several cars I'd like to retrofit them to.

 

Gilly

I'd like to see the Missouri Pacific Colorado Eagle.

 

Marker nominated a train, the Eagle, which is a "drop dead gorgeous" consist, and it hasn't been manufactured by anyone correctly ( I think).  I am not a MOP fan by any stretch, but I might buy an Eagle just because.
Good idea.
or how about a PRR Keystone?  Nobody has manufactured it either, and even though I am not an eastern road enthusiast, I might buy a Keystone, too...it is one fascinating train.

Indeed! 

Lionel should jump on the Walthers modular  band wagon so they could do the cars correctly - what ever they decide to do. But that being extremely unlikely....I'd vote for Pullman smoothside lightweights typical of the PW period.  Do say, four to six basic types to start with.   I actually prefer Budd stainless, but with everyone else doing it, we probably need to go with quality PS offerings.

 

"Those of us buying the K-Line cars want them for many reasons other than just being 21" cars-AL construction, detail, rarity, and challenge of locating/purchasing them.  Some of the cars are extremely hard to find."

 

I totally agree with you Aaron. If anyone watched the auctions last week on the big board, you have been shocked at what 21" K-Line passenger cars sold for.    

A MOPAC Eagle consist to match the PA's!!

 

 

I'm excited to see the Lionel cars firsthand.  Curious how they'll look.  Not that I don't expect them to be very nice!

 

Sure hope they don't have the 'plastic look'

 

The K-Line 21" car auction on the 'big board' blew my mind!  I couldn't believe what a few of those cars sold at, and there was serious bidding on them at the buzzer!  The prices would've went higher if there was more bid time.  The 2 cars I was bidding/watching went for $180+ and the other $275!  A flat end observation car went for $350 on another site.

Keep your eyes open for a SAL Silver Meteor. That set is all about the accurate Sun Lounge.  It may be in the works with GGD after the Sunset Limited goes into production.

 

Jonathan, You know that will make my day   I'm saving up for this just in case it happens.

 

The original Silver Meteor didn't have the Sun-Lounge cars, but you're right in that it should be included.

 

The only one I know of in O scale is a shell from OK Engines, but it has a fluted roof vice a smooth roof.  I spent a LOT of time with my Dremel, files, and steel wool trying to remove those flutes:

 

 

I Dremeled off the fluting so I could represent the side door to the bar area, but I left off the roof vent and need to add that on:

 

 

These cars have gone thru so many changes it's critical to use the correct photos for the time period.

Bob what a nice job you have done. They are so spectacular



       

Thanks Erik!  I wish I could find more info on the shades for those huge windows, I'm still not sure if they had them just on the sides or on the top too.

 

Oops!!!  I also need to put some Archer rivets on the roof windows.

Bob D.

I watched the Silver Meteor leave Baltimore headed south a number of times from a vantage point above the station tracks. If my memory is correct (questionable) the windows in the top of the car were rather heavily tinted as your photo indicates.

 

I don't recall any type blind / shade on the roof windows.

Hey how about a fully complete Empire Builder with hot and cold running everything!  This would include a Budd full dome, a delicious River car..like the Pend O Rielle.  And a high window Mountain car bringing up the stern !   A set of killer F units would then be required to pull this awesome consist....or you could sub some Glacier Park E7s....or tuck in some Tur-A-lux heavyweights and turn it all over to the Big Z6 Challenger !   Huzzah !

I posted on the ACL-SAL Yahoo forum and Joe Oates said they did indeed have tinted glass in the roof.  Thanks Bob for bringing this up

How about a consist of smooth-side streamliners in Two-Tone Gray with White/Silver stripes like these as delivered for the Overland in '41-'42.  Here's a couple of Con Cor models for visualization:

 

  

 It would be a great opportunity to sell another Lionel set similar to the "Empire State Express" in the current catalog.   They could catalog the set as "The Overland" a full consist and a matching TTG with white/silver striped FEF-3 #841 or an FEF-2 #823. Either one would look great with or without wind wings. FEF-2s & FEF-3s were nearly identical.

 

 

  

Here's an excerpt from and link to a great article describing the new streamliners in this paint scheme and of course the repainting of all of the older heavyweights:

 

"In the years 1941-1942 a fleet of new streamline cars - head end cars, coaches, and sleepers - was delivered for a general upgrading of the "Overland Route" trains which were then operated jointly by the Union Pacific in cooperation with the Southern Pacific and the Chicago and Northwestern. (The Southern Pacific portion of this article details the application of the "Overland" scheme to the Southern Pacific equipment.)".............

 

............"PAINTING AND LETTERING

 

   The streamlined coaches and sleepers noted in the foregoing were painted in the "Overland" paint scheme on delivery. An appreviated painting and lettering diagram is included here. For a completely detailed diagram you should get a copy of Greg Davies' excellent reference Union Pacific Passenger Cars

 

Volume II, pages 224, 226.

 

   Basically, the passenger cars painted in the "Overland" paint scheme appear to follow the same format: Doors and Ends, Light Grey; Window Band up to the vestibule door edge, 2'-9" wide, Dark Grey; Underbody and Trucks, semi-gloss Black.

 

    Lettering and striping was Silver-Grey edged in Black. Stripes were 2" wide (including " wide Black f me-line on either side of the color stripe). Ownership or train name lettering in the center of the letterboard was generally 8" high with 1/4" Black edging. The car name on the lower pier panel was generally 5" high with 3/16" Black edging. The car name and owner or train name were centered on the car centerline. They were also "centered" horizontally as well, being equidistant between the roof line and the upper window stripe as in the case of the letterboard lettering and equidistant between the lower window stripe and the skirt edge as in the case of the car name or number on the pier panel. The upper window stripe was 20 5/16" from the roofline on both the streamlined coaches and sleepers. The distance between the lower window stripe and the skirt edge was 2'- 1" on the sleeper and 3'-0 1/16" on the coaches. It should also be noted that on the streamlined coaches the upper window tops, while the lower stripe was a greater 5 9/16" below the window bottoms. In other words, the dark grey window band was not centered equally above and below the window edges on the coaches.

 

   One of the really distinctive features of these cars was that some cars carried the train name of their assigned train in large letters centered on the upper letterboard. In this arrangement the name of the owner (Pullman or the assigned road) was centered in smaller letters (5" high) on each end of the upper letterboard set in 3" from the vestibule door or 3" from the blind end. I haven't been able to determine any particular pattern which goverened whether a car simply carried "Pullman" or had the train name on the letterboard. Jeff Cauthen observes that the railroad owned cars (presumably after the 1945 transfer from the Pullman Pool to the joint "Overland Route" operators) had the owning railroad's name placed at either end of the letterboards, thus replacing the small "Pullman" that had been there earlier. "Overland" or "City of St. Louis" was retained in the center of the letterboard, however, for some time after this modification. Ultimately the train names were deleted altogether in favor of the operating railroads' names."

 

 

http://www.trainlife.com/artic...-their-paint-schemes

 

Naturally these streamliners were eventually repainted in the Armor Yellow and gray along with future passenger cars.

 

Finally,

Apologies to any who find my singular call for Scale Two-Tone Gray UP tiresome. 

 

I wouldn't be able to resist that set!

Awesome car Bob somebody beat me to it but your photo looks like rayban maybe green like the weaver windows

I would love to see some Midwest/ East Coast Railroad's, that were shared across several Class I's:

 

L&N's Hummingbird

 

L&N's Pan-American

 

NKP's Nickel Plate Limited

 

PRR's South Wind

 

And of the Dedicated Premier Passenger Trains, I would love to see and would definitely buy into:

 

ATSF's Super Chief

PRR's Congressionals

 

PRR's Broadway Limited

 

I would like Lionel to finish off the 2 sets they started. I have 3, 21" G.N. Sky Blue cars that need a 4 car set in the same color scheme to complete. I would settle for a G.N. Empire Builder scheme set. I also have 5 Milwaukee Rd. cars in yellow that also need a correct baggage car and another coach to complete that set. As far as new things I would like to see a modern Metra bi-lever commuter car set.

Gilly,

Got your pre-order in yet? I think you are not going to want to miss these!