What do you think about LionChief+ 2.0?

I think that LionChief 2.0 is what Lionel should have led off with a few years ago with the LionChief introduction.

Full backward compatibility with the existing command system offered.

Regarding the Big Boy - I'm assuming that it's no more expensive to use Legacy innards compared to TMCC but Lionel simply wants to create an obvious difference between the Legacy offerings (eg. whistle steam) and the LionChief 2.0 offerings (no whistle steam). It's somewhat frustrating for the consumer but I can understand the business thinking applied.

Brian,

(IMO) Strictly from a business point of view, Lionel is testing the "waters" with their LC+2.0, lots of other  Legacy options up front in this catalog. If I were looking for a Lionmaster Big Boy at this price level,  I would prefer Legacy.

I'm hoping it cracks the possibility of bringing back the Lionmaster PRR T1. I've ALWAYS wanted one of those engines and a scale variation is just not in the universe of possibility.

I would consider buying LC+2.0 engines if they made a body style I was interested in. Semi scale doesn't do it for me anymore.

These fit right in with my layout. Because of space I have to use 036 curves, which means that I can run some Legacy and any Lion Chief Plus engines. So Lion Chief Plus 2.0 would be in the middle of those 2 options. I'm glad the're coming out with this. I guess that means that it's a no go on John Galt's Lion Chief bridge device.

Lionchief 2.0 is functionally TMCC with Bluetooth and Lionchief universal remote support. Lionchief plus is effectively dead now. Calling it 2.0 is just confusing.

Allin posted:

Lionchief 2.0 is functionally TMCC with Bluetooth and Lionchief universal remote support. Lionchief plus is effectively dead now. Calling it 2.0 is just confusing.

I think calling it 2.0 is showing that it's now on version two and just the + was version 1, 1.1 and then 1.2. I'm assuming those versions based on the universal remote firmware.

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

Lionchief 2.0 is functionally TMCC with Bluetooth and Lionchief universal remote support. Lionchief plus is effectively dead now. Calling it 2.0 is just confusing.

I think calling it 2.0 is showing that it's now on version two and just the + was version 1, 1.1 and then 1.2. I'm assuming those versions based on the universal remote firmware.

It is still very confusing, given how few know or knew the difference between the basic version and plus. TMCC is already well known and established by comparison. The remote had to have a firmware patch to be used with many of the earlier sets. The universal remotes runs into the problem of you don't always know what engine is on which button from what I have read, simple to find out, but still confusing.

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Ray Lombardo posted:

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Just pushed the prince range out of what many could afford, like me who saves up all year for a single engine, and am now left with the toy, really basic engines, given the end of the plus line.

I think LC 2.0 is a positive step forward providing a bridge between TMCC/Legacy and LC.+.  It's the beginning of the coming together of technologies.  Think of all the wireless/command technologies Lionel has fielded.   It's mind boggling.  It must be costing Lionel a fortune to support all these technologies.  I had a recent case where I had to go all the back to the Lionel Engineering folks to sort out my wireless technology product configuration (happy ending).  Today's future is running trains via smart devices using an App.  Video is coming slowly as it become better quality and less expensive.  Next voice control, control over internet and remote operating sessions.  How about Bluetooth switches and accessories.

Ray Lombardo posted:

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Totally agree. Choices, folks.

Allin posted:

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

Lionchief 2.0 is functionally TMCC with Bluetooth and Lionchief universal remote support. Lionchief plus is effectively dead now. Calling it 2.0 is just confusing.

I think calling it 2.0 is showing that it's now on version two and just the + was version 1, 1.1 and then 1.2. I'm assuming those versions based on the universal remote firmware.

It is still very confusing, given how few know or knew the difference between the basic version and plus. TMCC is already well known and established by comparison. The remote had to have a firmware patch to be used with many of the earlier sets. The universal remotes runs into the problem of you don't always know what engine is on which button from what I have read, simple to find out, but still confusing.

I'm assuming that they didn't call Lion Chief Plus 2.0 TMCC because that would confuse people. I'm guessing that LC+2.0 is LC+1.2 with TMCC together, hence the new version of 2.0.

What would be really cool is if they offered a LC+2.0 upgrade kit, I don't see that happening since they never offered a LC+ upgrade kit.

If they just offered an ERR BlueTooth module, that's all we need!

Allin posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Just pushed the prince range out of what many could afford, like me who saves up all year for a single engine, and am now left with the toy, really basic engines, given the end of the plus line.

Then vote your wallet and buy MTH.  I have found that in many cases they make the same thing for less money.  Compare the announced pricing on the LC 2.0 Lionmaster big boy (over $900) with the Railking Imperial (a little less than $700).   Choices for every hobbyist and budget.

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

Lionchief 2.0 is functionally TMCC with Bluetooth and Lionchief universal remote support. Lionchief plus is effectively dead now. Calling it 2.0 is just confusing.

I think calling it 2.0 is showing that it's now on version two and just the + was version 1, 1.1 and then 1.2. I'm assuming those versions based on the universal remote firmware.

It is still very confusing, given how few know or knew the difference between the basic version and plus. TMCC is already well known and established by comparison. The remote had to have a firmware patch to be used with many of the earlier sets. The universal remotes runs into the problem of you don't always know what engine is on which button from what I have read, simple to find out, but still confusing.

I'm assuming that they didn't call Lion Chief Plus 2.0 TMCC because that would confuse people. I'm guessing that LC+2.0 is LC+1.2 with TMCC together, hence the new version of 2.0.

Except Lionchief 2.0 does not come with a remote, like earlier engines, making it more TMCC in the box than Lionchief plus. It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe. Given the comparability issues between Lionchief engines already, and their lacking of a true lash-up mode, calling TMCC would make more sense. somthing like TMCC with Lionchief or Lionchief with TMCC would be better than 2.0, when it is really 4.0 plus too 5.0 plus in revision, given the changes I noticed between plus and standard engines I have in the last four years alone. It even started out with more crew talk, and two of the phrases were cut after the first year in basic alone.

Allin posted:

It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe

Actually the Lion Master Big Boy was last offered in 2010, it had Legacy, Whistle Steam and road specific crew dialog. Lionmaster Big Boy 4011 Legacy list $899.99 I have this engine. So the new offering is actually a step down in some areas, but has a few new features, Blue Tooth, dual speakers, ditch, strobe and MARS lights Lionmaster Big Boy 4014 LC+2.0 list $1199.99. I will be preordering this engine.

If it has Legacy quality Railsounds I would be OK with it. No whistle steam is disappointing though. I own the 2010 Legacy version and love it.

BradFish1 posted:

If it has Legacy quality Railsounds I would be OK with it. No whistle steam is disappointing though. I own the 2010 Legacy version and love it.

 

I love mine too, however I'm glad that this will be a little different. If it was the exact same that would be boring. This will give me a reason to still run my 4011 from time to time.

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe

Actually the Lion Master Big Boy was last offered in 2010, it had Legacy, Whistle Steam and road specific crew dialog. Lionmaster Big Boy 4011 Legacy list $899.99 I have this engine. So the new offering is actually a step down in some areas, but has a few new features, Blue Tooth, dual speakers, ditch, strobe and MARS lights Lionmaster Big Boy 4014 LC+2.0 list $1199.99. I will be preordering this engine.

Ah, thanks, I thought i had miss remembered. It has been a while since I looked it up, more like a few years. Then I remember reading about TMCC 2.0, now known as Legacy. So many brand names, and they now over lap. Then the future is Bluetooth or WiFi everything and no more remotes or base stations, which breaks compatibility in many ways to Post War with out a considerably more complex set up, which given my generations lack of basic skills becomes a rather large learning curve for entrance for new buyers at some point.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If they just offered an ERR BlueTooth module, that's all we need!

I agree with John. the old axiom is needed here, keep it simple. 

I forgot to add the quillable whistle to the list for the Big Boy. This is one feature that I will miss on the LC+2.0 BB.

Allin posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Just pushed the prince range out of what many could afford, like me who saves up all year for a single engine, and am now left with the toy, really basic engines, given the end of the plus line.

Look, it's none of my business what is "expensive" to you. We all have our limits. But you keep posting that LC 2.0 is pricing you out. Really?

If you like the old LC+ there's tons of product out there. Assume you don't have all of them. I just did a very cursory search and there are dozens of LC+ locos (steam and diesel) to be had starting at $159 through $300. Maybe a little higher. Plenty of product in the $200 to $300 range.  And these are all from reputable online train dealers. Have at it.

Good luck.

Allin posted:

It is still very confusing, given how few know or knew the difference between the basic version and plus. .

Those who find LC+ 2.0 to be too intimidating probably shouldn't go anywhere near Legacy or DCS, or even TMCC. 

johnstrains posted:

Allin posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Just pushed the prince range out of what many could afford, like me who saves up all year for a single engine, and am now left with the toy, really basic engines, given the end of the plus line.

Look, it's none of my business what is "expensive" to you. We all have our limits. But you keep posting that LC 2.0 is pricing you out. Really?

If you like the old LC+ there's tons of product out there. Assume you don't have all of them. I just did a very cursory search and there are dozens of LC+ locos (steam and diesel) to be had starting at $159 through $300. Maybe a little higher. Plenty of product in the $200 to $300 range.  And these are all from reputable online train dealers. Have at it.

Good luck.

Good luck is probably not needed.

Research, however, is needed.

johnstrains posted:

Allin posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

I think LC 2.0 is great for Lionel and the hobby.  Makes command control simple and accessible and now works seamlessly with TMCC.

Just pushed the prince range out of what many could afford, like me who saves up all year for a single engine, and am now left with the toy, really basic engines, given the end of the plus line.

Look, it's none of my business what is "expensive" to you. We all have our limits. But you keep posting that LC 2.0 is pricing you out. Really?

If you like the old LC+ there's tons of product out there. Assume you don't have all of them. I just did a very cursory search and there are dozens of LC+ locos (steam and diesel) to be had starting at $159 through $300. Maybe a little higher. Plenty of product in the $200 to $300 range.  And these are all from reputable online train dealers. Have at it.

Good luck.

400 is about it for me, that is about an engine a year, or was. The new engines are starting in the 500 range, and are scale. I know there are two 200 dollar models, as much as the train sets they came in were in 2014, but the middle in the market is gone. Sales are great, if you have money at the time to take advantage of them, most don't run 12 months so I end up out of luck. Given my terrible luck with 100 percent something is wrong engines with MTH or Lionel I will not touch Ebay or any used site given the number of warranty repairs I have had, I quite frankly don't have the money to have them fixed other wise. They may be very reputable but I do have to take my history into account. Two dead boards, a faulty smoke unit, bad front truck (that fixed itself, probably the only time pet hair has fixed a toy train by working as a form of lock-tight between the wheel and the axle), maligned remote, repairing a warranty repair myself after wires were left sitting on the wheels, then having to fix a loos gear pin that fell out every time the engine was greased or oiled (first time Lionel had heard of that one when I called about something else that needed a warranty repair), fixing a warranty repaired engine after the side rod was over tightened and on upside down, the drive gears are still out of alignment randomly for no discernible reason, probably damaged by the wrenched down side rod, had to rebuild the MTH given all the issues it had with continuity (how do you install a pick up roller without it is making electric contact when it is in correctly? Same with the draw bar, which shorted to the tender axle as well. How is this possible?), I have just had a nightmare when it comes to new engines in general. Fortunately I can repair most of them, but wow it gets old.

Now my complaining aside and my bad luck.

Thank you very much I do appreciate your encouragement. I sure hope my next engine does not need to be fixed out of the box.

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe

Actually the Lion Master Big Boy was last offered in 2010, it had Legacy, Whistle Steam and road specific crew dialog. Lionmaster Big Boy 4011 Legacy list $899.99 I have this engine. So the new offering is actually a step down in some areas, but has a few new features, Blue Tooth, dual speakers, ditch, strobe and MARS lights Lionmaster Big Boy 4014 LC+2.0 list $1199.99. I will be preordering this engine.

Steam engines won't have ditch, strobe and MARS lights. 

Compared to the 2010 Legacy version, the LC+2.0 model adds Bluetooth, but loses whistle steam and the Legacy sound system. That's a trade many wouldn't make, but the new version will still be nice, I'm sure.

breezinup posted:

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe

Actually the Lion Master Big Boy was last offered in 2010, it had Legacy, Whistle Steam and road specific crew dialog. Lionmaster Big Boy 4011 Legacy list $899.99 I have this engine. So the new offering is actually a step down in some areas, but has a few new features, Blue Tooth, dual speakers, ditch, strobe and MARS lights Lionmaster Big Boy 4014 LC+2.0 list $1199.99. I will be preordering this engine.

Steam engines won't have ditch, strobe and MARS lights. 

Compared to the 2010 Legacy version, the LC+2.0 model adds Bluetooth, but loses whistle steam and the Legacy sound system. That's a trade many wouldn't make, but the new version will still be nice, I'm sure.

I was only going by what Lionel had listed on their site. Did you check it out?

Davety posted:

breezinup posted:

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe

Actually the Lion Master Big Boy was last offered in 2010, it had Legacy, Whistle Steam and road specific crew dialog. Lionmaster Big Boy 4011 Legacy list $899.99 I have this engine. So the new offering is actually a step down in some areas, but has a few new features, Blue Tooth, dual speakers, ditch, strobe and MARS lights.

Steam engines won't have ditch, strobe and MARS lights. 

I was only going by what Lionel had listed on their site. Did you check it out?

Sure. But Lionel was just listing features available with the v.2 system, not necessarily what was specific to steam vs. diesel. They've done similar description variations many times in the past. Notice there are no ditch, strobe or MARS lights on any of the steam engine illustrations. Except for a very few prototype steam engines that had MARS lights, none of these items were ever on steam engines. Strobe and ditch lights didn't appear until many years after steam was gone.

breezinup posted:

Davety posted:

breezinup posted:

Davety posted:

Allin posted:

It also has a much higher price tag, higher detail, like the LionMaster BigBoy, last time offered in TMCC I believe

Actually the Lion Master Big Boy was last offered in 2010, it had Legacy, Whistle Steam and road specific crew dialog. Lionmaster Big Boy 4011 Legacy list $899.99 I have this engine. So the new offering is actually a step down in some areas, but has a few new features, Blue Tooth, dual speakers, ditch, strobe and MARS lights.

Steam engines won't have ditch, strobe and MARS lights. 

I was only going by what Lionel had listed on their site. Did you check it out?

Sure. But Lionel was just listing features available with the v.2 system, not necessarily what was specific to steam vs. diesel. They've done similar description variations many times in the past. Notice there are no ditch, strobe or MARS lights on any of the steam engine illustrations. Except for a very few prototype steam engines that had MARS lights, none of these items were ever on steam engines. Strobe and ditch lights didn't appear until many years after steam was gone.

Unless it is England, but then that is a different steam culture.

Seems like it's a focus effort to encourage adoption of the Universal Remote and the app, which I think is a fair thing to do if they're behind it as the future of operation, much like MTH is doing with their own app. I personally have two LC+ engines on my layout; I was a bit annoyed at first to read that LC 2.0 engines will not come with their own remotes, I imagine it'll make things easier for those expanding their layouts in the long run with less individual remotes to juggle and the ability to control them with the CAB-2.

My only hangup is that I hope that the new succession of upgrades, which seems to be Conventional/Lionchief -> Lionchief 2.0 -> Legacy is going to be the standard going forward.

I'm just wondering if the ditch lights can be controlled from the legacy remote. Since these are more or less TMCC engines and you can't control the ditch light effect (weather they flash or not) on those engines. 

why no remote? these need thier own remote so the buyer can then upgrade to tmcc or the legacy remote if they choose to. do away with lc and lc+. that way from starter set to legacy every engine wont be left behind as they say.

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

why no remote? these need thier own remote so the buyer can then upgrade to tmcc or the legacy remote if they choose to. do away with lc and lc+. that way from starter set to legacy every engine wont be left behind as they say.

Starter sets still have LC. Would be nice if they made starter sets (with track and power) for people just starting out and then the transition would be seamless between starter set and legacy. 

THey don't come with a remote because you can use the app on your phone, the LC universal remote, TMCC Cab-1 remote, and Legacy Cab1-L and Cab-2 remotes to run them.  And did anyone else notice in the online catalog under the video it says you can lash-up with Legacy locomotives when using a Legacy controller?  That means they aren't TMCC, they are actually Legacy.  I think these are just what I've been wanting since Lionel introduced LC+, non-scale locomotives with Legacy control.

The Lionchief remote works perfectly with a command control layout. DCS and it get along flawlessly. No menus to swap through just swap remotes to change which engine you are controlling. To do a lash up, just hold a remote in each hand, no programming, no menus. That is the magic of the old Lionchief plus its simplicity, yet great bang for your buck, while being compatible with everything, assuming the breakers were up to date, something you should do anyway. And the engines in semi scale and semi detail layouts were never left behind. So, it was not the fanciest thing out there, the detail was fairly good for the price, most of the commonly used legacy features are there, horn, whistle, electro-couplers, generic crew talk. If swamping remotes is to complicated, how is programing engine ids and lash ups, keeping software up to date, and swapping between multiple , sometimes poorly worded, menus any simpler?

sinclair posted:

THey don't come with a remote because you can use the app on your phone, the LC universal remote, TMCC Cab-1 remote, and Legacy Cab1-L and Cab-2 remotes to run them.  And did anyone else notice in the online catalog under the video it says you can lash-up with Legacy locomotives when using a Legacy controller?  That means they aren't TMCC, they are actually Legacy.  I think these are just what I've been wanting since Lionel introduced LC+, non-scale locomotives with Legacy control.

Dave Olsen has clarified that they are NOT Legacy, but rather TMCC that has had it's speed curves adjusted to more closely match Legacy locomotives.  They will only have 32 speed steps, I would have hoped for maybe 100 like the ERR Cruise.

Grampstrains posted:

From what I have read in the catalog, I like it.  I can't see the price applied to the Berkshire Jr. engine but the rest of the 2.0 engines aren't too bad.  The Tier 4 is something I like and the price is fair with all the added features.  I just would like to know if a 2.0 upgrade is needed for our remote and if so, when will it be available?

The Berks are just 50.00 more at list than the Pacific engines were last year??   With added features and abilities? 

Jim