@WyattK , do you happen to have a pic of the driveline before it got gooped up with vasoline or whatever it is you used?.....I’d like to see if there’s a solution without pollution....🤣
Pat
Can anyone share how the shell is removed? How much force after removing screws is required? Any tricks?
@harmonyards posted:@WyattK , do you happen to have a pic of the driveline before it got gooped up with vasoline or whatever it is you used?.....I’d like to see if there’s a solution without pollution....🤣
Pat
Unfortunately I don't, but if you can see from that picture I posted with the Vaseline on it - the u joint on the flywheel is tilted up a little higher than the worm gear u joint. I tried repositioning the worm gear, but really no way else to change it's positioning.
@Paul Kallus posted:Can anyone share how the shell is removed? How much force after removing screws is required? Any tricks?
@Paul Kallus you shouldn't have to pry the shell off hard at all - it should come right off if you have all proper screws removed. If you are pulling firm on it and it isn't budging, it is still probably fastened down somewhere, whether it be from a screw or something else.
@WyattK posted:Unfortunately I don't, but if you can see from that picture I posted with the Vaseline on it - the u joint on the flywheel is tilted up a little higher than the worm gear u joint. I tried repositioning the worm gear, but really no way else to change it's positioning.
Hard to tell from that pic, since it looks like it just got finished eating a Krispy Kreme doughnut......two things could be the source of the noise here, as Ted mentioned, and I am seeing now.....too short of a shaft, or a poor alignment.....more side ways would be the issue, not so much as up & down ( on vertical plane) as I’ve mentioned before, I’ve put these dog bones at their max deflection, with no issues,.....hopefully Paul can get his shell off ( I’m not advocating that if it’s under warranty) and he’ll take some good pics of his issue....if it’s the same issue, of course.....then we’ll see if we can come up with a better solution than something intended to cure diaper rash....especially since WyattK’s is starting to make some noise again....to me, that’s no bueno....
Pat
@harmonyards I'd be interested to see if we can come up with a good, non-vaseline solution. 👍
We’ll need to see one that’s not all covered in ‘Cerme de la diaper.....like I mentioned, at this point, let’s see if Paul finds the magical combination that gets his separated.....
this will tell the story, if the shaft walks in between the cups a great distance, ie; it slides front and back almost to the end of the slots, ....then no bueno, ....if the pins bounce around in the slots too much, no bueno,....if the shaft is oober short, and there’s too much deflection, no bueno.....so what I’d like to see is a video with somebody using a toothpick, and see if the dog bone kicks around in the cups too much, and then rotate the flywheel by hand, and see how much travel occurs before #1; it starts to move the dogbone on the motor side, then #2; how much rotation it takes to start turning the gear box side.....that’ll be a good indicator if these things are overloaded with too much slop.......get the drift?...
Pat
I use that same style drive from North West Shortline. Their instructions say to make the drive shaft tabs parallel and not at 90 degree. Also when I install the drive shaft I loosen the motor mount screws so that when testing for smoothness I can lift the rear of the motor up slightly while running until the smoothest spin is achieved. I then shim the motor up by the amount of lift. It’s worth a try. This is of course after you’ve tested the motor without the drive shaft to ensure it’s not the motor.
Rod, I won’t dispute what NWSL says to do with their kits,.....there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and that’s another discussion.....many theories on phasing....I know what works for me, and longevity with hundreds if not thousands of hours says I’ll quarter them....I can get some pretty steep deflections, but my end play and cup slots are snug and precise....never a slightest hint of noise......even with what some would consider ugly deflections......Pat
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Pat, I agree. I’ve never had perfect alignment with this style drive.
Wow a lot of action on this thread today! @WyattK I agree that Lionel's packaging does a lousy job of protecting their trains. But unless the screws were super-loose (and you would have noticed), there's NO WAY the motor "got knocked out of alignment in shipping." Lionel uses this same style of cast-in idler gearbox on several different locomotives. The alignment was probably right for the first model with this setup. But they declined to spec out a larger worm wheel or make other changes for the 2-10-4. I'm guessing there's not enough room to tilt the motor to get perfect alignment.
And it's not only Lionel. @Lou1985 I have a Premier 20-3130 (the first Reading T1.) I'm not sure if MTH reused the chassis geometry from the N&W 'J' or what. But the motor-gearbox alignment isn't even close, and they are both non-adjustable. 
The dogbone shaft chattered like a telegraph key when the loco ran in reverse, I almost returned it! I ended up creating a little extra clearance for the thrust bearing at the rear of the gearbox by removing part of the fiber gasket. But the designers should be ashamed at the mechanical ugliness they created! If it wasn't boxed up and buried in a closet I would post a pic. I've never seen a newer T1 with its shell off, to see whether they improved the alignment in a later release.
Bottom line- the design is typical of die-cast, mass-produced toy trains which favors re-use of existing molds. The way the chassis is designed, with a built-in gearbox and captive axles, is already inferior to the approach used for decades on scale models. They can get away with it because the driving axles are unsprung, so there is no requirement for the geared axle to move independent of the others. Unfortunately, this type of gearbox can't rotate to line up with the motor. Thankfully, the dogbone shaft can handle some pretty extreme misalignment! I'm thinking if you get a slightly longer shaft from Lionel, or make a custom one as illustrated in Pat's photos you'll silence the problem permanently.
Note: Northwest Short Line (NWSL) sells several kits with the horned balls in different sizes. A ball with larger pins may also be part of the solution. Interesting discussion!
But the motor-gearbox alignment isn't even close, and they are both non-adjustable. The dogbone shaft chattered like a telegraph key when the loco ran in reverse, ( Ted’s quote ☺️)
everything is adjustable Ted,.....that’s why on the seventh day, they made machines....😁😁😁
Pat
Well.. the noise has come back. Guess the vaseline has thinned out enough to let the dogbone flap around noisily again. I have greased it with vaseline twice now. Any other ideas for a fix? Would wrapping a thin layer of electrical tape around the pegs of the dogbone keep them from flapping so much? Might try that next.
Electrical tape would last about one lap around the layout! If the noise bothers you that much, it might be time to invest in some better U-joints and a proper driveshaft.
Ugh. Yeah, I'm thinking I should've sent this engine back for good for a refund so I can get a new one without this problem. I got a good deal on this one brand new though. Guess the huge discount is worth dealing with a little noise until I get it figured out.
I’m still waiting to see some good pics of one with out all the good on it to propose a proper solution....
Pat
Wyatt if you exchange yours for the same model it might have the same problem. It's a flaw inherent in the design, perhaps because Lionel re-used parts and dimensions from another loco.
A new custom drive shaft that fits more snugly, larger pins set at right angles to each other, etc., would be a permanent solution. Any skilled repair person can make one or you can even do it yourself. See Pat's (harmonyards) pics on page 1 of this thread. Sorry you're having frustration, hope you can get it worked out to your satisfaction!
@harmonyards, might take the shell off again tomorrow and see if I can figure something out. I'll wipe all the Vaseline off and post a pic. @Ted S, Hopefully I can get something worked out like that. Thanks.
@WyattK posted:@harmonyards, might take the shell off again tomorrow and see if I can figure something out. I'll wipe all the Vaseline off and post a pic. @Ted S, Hopefully I can get something worked out like that. Thanks.
Just clean it all up, and put it back together stone stock like it was....noise and all,....I’d like to see some key points on the coupling set up and build it better than they did....clearly snotting it up with Vasoline at least identified the issue ( good find Ted) ....now we’ll come up with a permanent repair that can be repeated incase others have the same issue....I guess the other fella never could get his shell off??...I haven’t seen him reply back, unless I missed him...
Pat
WyattK, hang in there; have had harmonyards repair 2 old Lionel track cleaning cars for me - better than new; the fellas on this forum will help you fix anything.
I vaguely recall a thread where someone had a TMCC or legacy steamer that made a similiar buzzing sound when going down grade.
I believe Mike Reagan chimed in and suggested bending the motor mount slightly to make the driveline straighter and it fixed the issue. At the time he stated this was a somewhat common problem and that was the prescribed" fix".
I have no clue if this is possible on the S3.
@RickO Yeah, I was actually going to look into possibly unscrewing the motor mount and seeing if I could bend the tabs at the bottom, but this dogbone drive shaft chatter may possibly be because the dogbone pins are too small for the u joints like they were saying, so they just bounce and slap around while spinning. Though I think Ted or someone pointed out my motor mount is definitely misaligned.
Come to think of it.
There was also another loco released in the recent past where the dogbone was too short.
I can't find the thread. I believe one members crude fix was to stuff something into one end of the coupling to stop the rattling back and forth.
@RickO posted:Come to think of it.
There was also another loco released in the recent past where the dogbone was too short.
I can't find the thread. I believe one members crude fix was to stuff something into one end of the coupling to stop the rattling back and forth.
You are correct Rick, ....it was John Rowlen that had one carrying on, and he found the dogbone was too short,....another boo-boo band aid fix,....but it did silence the locomotive enough to determine that was the cause....he stuffed paper behind the coupling....but I’ll be ****** if I can find the thread either....
Pat
I also had a problem with a dogbone being too short. It actually broke the pins off. The motor mounts could not be changed due to clearance in the shell. I ordered a new dogbone and same issue. I also ordered the next size longer from Lionel and it was too long. I looked at moving the coupler joint on the motor shaft and on the gear box shaft closer, but these were also fixed in place and not easily moved.
So, I purchased small plastic pellets used for pellet gun and sanded them in half. I bonded one in the motor coupling and a 2nd in the gear box coupling. This positioned the dogbone in the "middle" so to say. I wanted to use something that was rounded and would not bind. There remained a slight clearance for movement in the dogbone.
This did the job. And the engine ran well without any noise.
If I was to redo this, I am not sure I would do it again or do what Pat suggested. I do like what he has shown. But I also have a bunch of extra pellets... 😁
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Thanks for the tips on getting the boiler off...have to confess this was a puzzler, but its always a case of jimmying here and there after removing screws. I didn't add any grease to mine, though, given what I've read here. I forwarded the link to this thread to Dave Olson at Lionel...hopefully he can respond at some point.
All,
It took me a while to find the photos of my repair. I have attached in my earlier post.
Hope this helps.
Best, Dave
Lionel used to use metal driveshafts in their locos. At least up to the first generation of legacy stuff.
Given the torque on the shaft. It would seem there could be failure of the plastic pins at some point. Especially as the Loco ages.
That old tmcc Hudson I purchased (on another thread) sure has a nice quality drive line.
Dave I'm glad your repair worked, but personally I wouldn't want glue anywhere near my motor or flywheel. If the motor ever needs to be replaced (and sometimes they do), that could make it difficult to remove the flywheel and U-joint coupling.
The driveline in the S3 or Wyatt's Texas type on the other thread isn't lower quality than what Lionel was using in 2001. In fact, many of the newer gearboxes are back-drivable (the wheels can turn the motor), which is a worthwhile improvement. Problems like the tapping noise occur because Lionel re-uses standard parts like the dogbone shaft, and even the gearbox geometry; the gears themselves; the angle of the worm shaft, etc., that were originally designed for other locos. Perhaps in its original application, the motor was further away or mounted at a different angle which matched that of the worm shaft.
If we're correct about the cause of the problem, then it's absolutely not a big deal. I'm convinced that if you, or a repair person make a new custom drive shaft of the correct length, with thicker pins set at right angles to each other, you'll never have this problem again!
