what is going on with the new Lionel "E8" Diesels?

What issue are you referring to?  Lionel appears to be using the old K-Line tooling for their E8/E9 which is different than their own E7 tooling. 

 

The prototypes were different in their side configurations as indicated by the following two links:

 

E7s look like this: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=401760&nseq=19

 

E8/E9s look like this: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=422351&nseq=28

 

Lionel's new model is clearly of the E8/E9.

what seems to be illustrated in the catalog is a not so good photo shopped rendition. The sides look like E8/E9s excepting that the windows are not correctly positioned. The roof of the locomotive in the catalog illustration is more like an E7.

 

I dont think Lionel is building what that catalog illustration shows but a locomotive that is more like an E8/E9. The numbers on the UP units shown in  the catalog are those of the two A' s in UP's prototype collection.

Not the ones depicted in the latest 2013 catalog! The roof configuration is DEFINITELY from either an E6 or E7, since there are multiple exhaust stacks plus NO winterization hatches. 

A real one. Don

Lionels  catalog descriptions and illustrations have been all over the place for the last several years.

 

My advice would be to wait until these diesels are delivered and you can see what they have or don't have or whether they're right or wrong.

 

Lionel won't know what they're selling till the locos hit our shores either.

 

Save yourself the disappointment, the early buy discounts aren't what they used to be anyway. 

They do appear to be computer renditions, but I don't understand why he would think people would be in an uproar about it.  It's possible that they modified a photo of an E7 model, but it is hard to see any exact roof detail because of the overlaid body color.  The only thing that really gives it away is the porthole spacing being off which I did not notice initially. 

 

It was discussed when the catalog first came out that the tooling would most likely be the old K-Line tooling which is an E8/E9.

 

Yes, but it has no nose door since the UP had to weld over the nose door for increase safety. Thus, the UP executive E9 units are no longer representative of the REAL E8/E9  models from the 1950s thru the 1970s.

Hot Water,

No need to jump down my throat.  My point was, I think the idea was for people not to scrutinize the photo so much that you would see the inconsistencies but to see that the finished product will be an E8/E9 (most likely of K-Line origin).  Most of us have been in this hobby long enough to know that catalog photos are notorious for being wrong and sometimes are an incorrect representation of what will actually be delivered.  Based on the information Lionel provided and the photos shown of the E8/E9/E7 hybrid which from far away looks more like an E8/E9, I stand by my earlier statement that you have a problem with.

The UP version is not necessarily "the real one." There were lots of variations in E8/E9 roof configurations and other details, depending on the railroad, as well as individual variations. For example, these two photographed are much different than the UP E9s. Note different roof configurations, different vent configurations, even different porthole configurations. Individual railroads often updated older locomotives, too, so sometimes it was difficult, for example, to tell an E-7 from an E8/9.

 

 

 

Hey Mountain, "most of us have been in this hobby long enough" Is that a fact, your opinion, or an implied slight? Any data to support the statement?

Fact remains....This Lionel E unit is a joke, if it's anywhere near close to the catalog illustration. I mean look at it !   E7 number boards, side wall panels, roof detail, side aprons and door placement.  The only thing "E8" about it is the port holes...which are incorrectly spaced for anything EMD ever did!  I'm gonna be so far from this critter, it'll make yer head spin...thank you very much.

Isn't it great to have choices?  

I saw the catalog illustration and thought it looked like a nice locomotive. . . . 

Covered in this thread in April, which seems to have been edited down some:

 

https://ogrforum.com/topic/new-lionel-e89-1

 

At any rate, it these are from the old K-Line tooling, this is what they SHOULD look like:

 

Sometimes, looking at a Lionel catalog is like looking in a Ford brochure and findings photoshopped Chevy's.

 

Rusty

And aren't the UP E's now essentially GP38's or some such on the inside?

 

Rusty

The side door on an E7 is futher back than on an E8/9.  Unless they totally reworked the load bearing body trusswork in order to move the side door and redid the cooling system and exhaust manifold, it's not that hard to tell the difference.

 

 

Rusty

I really do find these threads interesting and enjoy reading and seeing pictures about all these details.  However, for me, happiness is just not getting caught up in all the tiny details.  I ordered a UP set of the "new' E8/9s from the latest catalog suspecting that the illustration could be off (because most are, and that some details would be wrong (because often they are), and knowing absolutely that the length listed was wrong.  I figure whatever arrives will be a fantastic runner since all Legacy locos are, have good paint and graphics since all recent ones have, and have sound somewhere between really good and just-fantastic.  It will be armor yellow as it should be (or close enough) look like 1950ish EMD units i.e.,  definitely longer than Fs - I'll be happy with that.   

"Hey Mountain, "most of us have been in this hobby long enough" Is that a fact, your opinion, or an implied slight? Any data to support the statement?"

 

Ffffreddd,
I'm not sure what you are getting at (except that you are probably trying to stir the pot for some unknown reason; if this was not your intent, then I apologize in advance).  You cannot really prove anything about the statement let alone try to get some sort of data set for it.  It was just a general statement that a person should be able to evaluate themselves to determine how long they have been in this hobby.  I was talking about those of us who have been around for several years (or longer) who have looked through many, many catalogs and noticed the mistakes the manufacturers make.  There is a key phrase that we should all know that the manufacturers put in the catalogs which goes something like this: "Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability.  Verify features on product package."  This is their "get out of jail free card" as it were for incorrect drawings and products shown in the catalog.  Those of us who are relatively new to the hobby will find this out soon enough.

 

I just do not see any sense or point in complaining and nit-picking about a photoshopped catalog drawing.  For some people, the phrase "beating a dead horse" comes to mind.  If you want to know if the mistakes will be addressed, call Lionel and ask.  Otherwise, there is no sense in complaining to a bunch of people on an Internet forum who most likely can do nothing about the issue except call Lionel themselves.

"Get Out Of Jail Free" card.  I like that.  It's also called a cop-out.

 

I have no problem with showing a model from a different scale to portray something that isn't tooled up or no pre-production sample is available.  In the past, MTH used both HO and S scale models to do that to good effect.

 

Lionel's photoshop morph of E7's to E8's is just plain sloppy, lazy and does a disservice to their customers in trying to portray an image of quality.  When Atlas O uses drawings, it instills better confindence in the product.

 

Somehow, back in the olden days, even with artists renderings like this,

Lionel managed to portray the product as produced with reasonable accuracy.

 

There have also been times when the product inside the box does not have the features as listed on the box.  Usually, it's something minor, but still the product is misrepresented.

 

In this age of "preorder or the product might be cancelled," it's even more important to have reasonably accurate representations in the catalog.

 

Yeah, one can always refuse the model at point of sale, send it back if it doesn't match the catalog picture, the prototype or what the buyer envisioned it to be...

 

But, you shouldn't have to.

 

Rusty

A Lionel Legacy tuscan PRR hood unit--I ordered it immediately.  EEEEee 1 thru 9 whatever.

 

Also the NY PRR passenger set.

"I really do find these threads interesting and enjoy reading and seeing pictures about all these details.  However, for me, happiness is just not getting caught up in all the tiny details.  I ordered a UP set of the "new' E8/9s from the latest catalog suspecting that the illustration could be off (because most are, and that some details would be wrong (because often they are), and knowing absolutely that the length listed was wrong.  I figure whatever arrives will be a fantastic runner since all Legacy locos are, have good paint and graphics since all recent ones have, and have sound somewhere between really good and just-fantastic.  It will be armor yellow as it should be (or close enough) look like 1950ish EMD units i.e.,  definitely longer than Fs - I'll be happy with that.   "

i endorse this sentiment.

Not all E7 or for that matter E3 and E6 had square windows!

The Missouri Pacific opted for the round portholes from their very first E3.

Dan

Rusty, your personal record is awarded ten merits for good research, and for avoiding flying barstools and beer bottles.

 

There was a fellow here in Amarillo a few years back (since transferred by the railroad) who had a pair of K-Line Burlington black stripe E8A units, and I thought they were good looking engines.  If Lionel uses that same carbody, they ought to turn out fine.

Hey Mountain, It was not intended to be a slight. Just wondering what your were thinking. It seems that your generalization may not be even close to what most who have been around think. I agree with Rusty, if you can not get a decent rendition of what you are selling, than you are a pretty lame train " broker". And not really managing your subcontractors. I for one never ever bought an item from a Lionel catalogue sight unseen. And if what you claim is true, I never would. I always see a photo before I buy. Funny how every K-line item I ever bought was exactly like the catalogue. And if I do order something from any catalogue whether trains or other, if it does not match what is depicted than it goes back on the sellers dime. Always use good old American Express. And never got the fuzzy end of the lollipop.

Ffffreddd,

I never said the generalization applied to everyone including you.  There are always exceptions.  I've been in this hobby for almost 15 years.  I've dealt with many, many people in that time including quite a few that have been in this hobby for 40+ years.  In my experience, most of them could be included in that generalization.  Your generalization that most people will not fall into my generalization is a good example.  My experiences led me to one conclusion.  Yours led to a somewhat opposite conclusion.  Unfortunately, there is no way to definitively prove one person correct over the other.  One could make numerous generalizations that cannot be proved.

 

Anyway, back to the model.  I'm not defending Lionel.  The catalog photo should have been better.  Perhaps there were other reasons why it was done the way it was other than that Lionel slacked off.  Maybe the E8/E9s were last minute add-ins to the catalog and proper model photos could not be obtained in time.  Perhaps it was a money issue.  Perhaps something else entirely.  We will probably never know the true reason. 

 

I was not stating that the "get out of jail free" statement from the catalog was a cop-out for a manufacturer to produce inaccurate models.  I just meant that it gives the manufacturer time to fix issues after the catalog has been released.  The "get out of jail free" statement only applies to the catalog itself, not the actual items produced.  If Lionel does make these engines with all of the problems, then yes, they should be held accountable for not providing the proper model offered.  The catalog statement gives them the chance to correct issues so people who look through the catalog will know that if there are problems with a particular model shown, they will most likely be changed and/or corrected before the items are released (not a guarantee, however).  Contacting the manufacturer can also help because a consumer might see something they do not.

 

When it comes down to it, vote with your wallet.  If you don't like how a particular manufacturer made a model, don't buy it.  There will be someone else waiting to get it.  Personally, I have no plans to get any of the E8/E9s from Lionel.  I don't need any engines like that at this time.  When I flipped through the catalog, the photos appeared to look like E8/E9s and I thought nothing more of it.  I didn't scrutinize the photos and find the issues that other people did.

The issue seems pretty simple for this electric train.

 

Buy it if you like it, want it, and can afford it; don't buy it if you don't like it, or don't want it, or can't afford it.

 

Yes, but on the internet is more fun to talk about it endlessly.  ;-)

 

There was a time when Lionel would go to great lengths to rectify a design, decorating or operation issue. That time has passed.

I have a rough time spending more that 500.00 for a pair of diesels. I still think the older k line ones are a better deal. If you bought a set and upgraded them with the cruise commander M from ERR you would be way ahead.

I tend to ignore the faux pas from Lionel's art department in each new catalog.  I remember a catalog not too many years ago...featured the new Lima Berks as PM 1225 and NKP 765.  The artwork was atrocious per reality.  I think I even made a comment re the same to Rich Melvin at the York meet. 

 

He was right.  By the time the beasts arrived, most of the anomalies in the artwork had been reasonably addressed.

 

Of course, besides detail distractions like roof goofs and porthole problems, there's the issue of (gasp!) catalog color catastrophe's.  'She's too green!', 'It's not green enough!', 'I know that's NOT the correct green!', 'Why can't they get the green right?!', etc., etc., etc..  (Kermit was right.)

 

Look...even when it finally arrives, you know it's going to be WRONG!  It's what gives this forum its raison d'être!  I look forward as much to the PTSD (Post Train Shipment Distress) discourse as the new catalog speculation, bloviation, and frustration.

 

Sort of like listening to the...."news"....each day.  As a curmudgeony old phart, I've got that 'graveyard' laugh down pretty good now....or so my my wife tells me!

 

 Fortunately, I have my own wonderful everything's-wrong trains to run to keep things in proper perspective.

 

A glass of Merlot and some great classical music help, too.

 

KD 

i would suggest that this whole thread is mostly a Chicken Little inspired storm in a teacup. As has been pointed out by several posters, the catalogue artwork is an artist's impression at best.

But I take great comfort in knowing from past experience, that the finished article, when it eventually arrives, is almost certainly a thing of beauty, that will look, sound and perform better than I could hope for. 

Even if we took it as a given that the catalog artwork or rendition may not be how the actual model looks like, history has shown that sometimes it actually does.

 

Case in point:  When Lionel first announced their scale SD40T-2, they had a CGI side view rendering of it in the catalog.  First thing that stood out to me were the trucks being mounted too far inward from the frame ends, giving too much of an "overhang" look in relation to the hood, and the truck centers did not line up with the modeled jack points on the frame.  The other thing I noticed was that they used the same side view and photoshopped it with the Rio Grande paint scheme.  The issue was that the Rio Grande prototype had smaller fuel tanks than the SP version. 

 

Knowing it was catalog artwork I gave them some benefit of the doubt, but held off on reserving some as I had a feeling those discrepancies would end up being on the production model.  Guess, what; the discrepancies in the artwork described above actually did carry over to the model, so I passed on it completely.

 

So the point is, the catalog artwork may either be actually as depicted, the same or with minor variances or corrections, or completely different with major corrections on the actual released model, so don't discredit one possibility over the other.

or whatever works for you --

 

Yes indeedy. (That seems to happen on occasion in this neighborhood.) 

 

 

 

 

Quite dead, yet not.

These threads are more and more prevalent on the Forum.  Tedious.  Boring.  Repetitive.  Unenlightened.

...and yet you and the others that point those particulars out read and contribute to it anyway.  So it must be doing something for you in spite of all that.

Its obvious the catalog artwork is Photoshopped E-7s, but many railroads updated their early E units with grills and porthole sidepanels as the units were shopped. One thing nobody pointed out, the center panels with the windows are taller on the E-8s and 9s Considering the market segment Lionel is aiming for I wouldn’t worry that the models would be that poorly done.
This isn’t the toy segment where they can put 3 axle trucks under a GP-7 and call it a SD-9, or a chopped nose and call it a GP-20

Hi John Korling, First time I agree with you 100%. Wish some of those who think these threads are tedious and boring would come up with something engaging, interesting and exciting. I myself miss in depth electrical discussions with Dale M. I enjoy them probably the way you find comparing prototype details fun. Most of this is a bunch of whistle and horn blowing but at least it better than talking about the old days when..... Fill in the blanks. Fred

The standard O portion of the Lionel line is supposed to be more accurate to prototype than the 027 stuff.  The new Lionel E7.5 or whatever is just a bunch of Madison Ave. Boo-jive designed to crater the issue and further discombobulate the low information choocher!