I'm just curious about this one. Are the new open frame motors much different from "Old school" Motors? Do they run any smother,less noisy,more efficient ?
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On a outward appearance, no. Not sure if one could swap parts, but the look generally the same. They do not "feel" as hefty though.
Steve
I think outside of materials used, they are pretty close being the same.
I had an old standard loco restored and it needed a motor. The guy doing the work up a new build a loco motor in it. Looked the same except I had new enameled wire as opposed to the cloth covered wire of an original. I ran that loco quite a bit, and recently was able to put an original motor in the loco, and I really cannot tell the difference in performance. A meter may detect more current draw from the older motor, but I cannot see why there would be any other difference provided no parts like bearings or gears were excessively worn.
Gandy
Chris,
The noise is about the same. I just took the blue piper for a quick spin this evening. With cars in tow..its a heavy metal symphony.
Also, congrats! I seen your photo of your Orange 400e in the CTT today!
Sunrise
Originally Posted by Sunrise Special:
Chris,
The noise is about the same. I just took the blue piper for a quick spin this evening. With cars in tow..its a heavy metal symphony. Also, congrats! I seen your photo of your Orange 400e in the CTT today!
Sunrise
I don't have my copy yet but thank you. My son mike took the photo.
Current issue Bild-a-Loco motors are essentially identical to late version prewar Lionel. The same is true of Hiawatha motors in 0 gauge. There may be some issues with parts interchangeability. A guy who has done some motor and wheel work for me has unkind words to say about MTH wheels as replacements for originals. Also, I know that the original and repro motors for the Leland Detroit monorail are the same design. Unfortunately that is a lousy design and neither the original nor the repro will stand up to heavy use.
I can't speak from experience about other repro motors such as Ives or American Flyer. My experience in working on these motors is limited to Bild-a-Loco, Hiawatha, and monorail motors.
Hello,I think the difference is you will never have that same QUALITY of metal,as surely the new motors are made from Asian steel or metal.
Back in those days,there was just a sense of pride in ALL craftsmanship,including the basic materials used.The old motors had to be made out of USA steel and metals,and even today I doubt we would see that same quality out of American steel and metal.
I mean look at these trains,they were produced as "TOYS"!!!,and the craftsmanship and pride that went into Lionels from 1900-1969 will probably never be recaptured,as profit margins and greed are the only thing most companies are concerned with these days.
I am always amazed when I get an old,rusty,filthy Lionel,and with a little work and some lubrication,they always run AGAIN.
I wonder if these trains being made today will be around in 50-75 years from now?My money says they won't.The pride is not the same,it used to be a FAMILY buisness,but when Joshua retired,things began the downward spiral on quality,as he used to be the one to INSIST that only the finest quality materials went into his product.
I am busy buying Old trains,as prices have never been better,and I'll put up and Old set of Santa Fe's,up against anything on the market,let's run them continously for months,stopping only to relubricate,and see which train runs the longest before needing a repair.I love my OLD LIONELS!!!Thanks for your post!
Back in those days,there was just a sense of pride in ALL craftsmanship,including the basic materials used.The old motors had to be made out of USA steel and metals,and even today I doubt we would see that same quality out of American steel and metal.
I mean look at these trains,they were produced as "TOYS"!!!,and the craftsmanship and pride that went into Lionels from 1900-1969 will probably never be recaptured,as profit margins and greed are the only thing most companies are concerned with these days.
I am always amazed when I get an old,rusty,filthy Lionel,and with a little work and some lubrication,they always run AGAIN.
I wonder if these trains being made today will be around in 50-75 years from now?My money says they won't.The pride is not the same,it used to be a FAMILY buisness,but when Joshua retired,things began the downward spiral on quality,as he used to be the one to INSIST that only the finest quality materials went into his product.
I am busy buying Old trains,as prices have never been better,and I'll put up and Old set of Santa Fe's,up against anything on the market,let's run them continously for months,stopping only to relubricate,and see which train runs the longest before needing a repair.I love my OLD LIONELS!!!Thanks for your post!
Regarding quality of Asian steel and other materials, does anyone here have tensile modulus and elongation data, and Rockwell hardness numbers obtained according to ASTM standards to report, or is this just an urban legend in the making?
Although occasionally known to still occur, the incidence of die-cast warping ('zinc pest', etc.) is very much less prevalent these days. By the by, when they do occur, problems can also arise due to the degree of precision of manufacture, sheet steel thickness, etc. as well as the quality of materials.
When was the last time you had to rewind an armature from a modern manufacture open frame three pole motor? Copper wire for armature and field windings was coated with lacquer in the good ol' days. Lacquer is porous and limited in heat resistance and toughness, frequently resulting in shorts after sufficient usage. Hence, all of those vintage armatures that eventually had to be rewound. After the 1960's, copper windings are coated with a version of Formex(TM) which is much tougher and yields a much more uniform and durable coating than lacquer.
I have conventional Lionel Classics tinplate over twenty years old and MTH-branded tinplate over a decade old with a lot of miles on them, all of which still run beautifully. One strongly suspects that these pieces with a bit of attention will still operate very well 50 years from now.
And, oh, as much as it is desired to see 'Made in the USA' on train boxes, I do recall from the 1950's Lionel and Gilbert having to eat their mistakes after Christmas, too. 
Bob
Originally Posted by kennyb:
Hello,I think the difference is you will never have that same QUALITY of metal,as surely the new motors are made from Asian steel or metal.
Back in those days,there was just a sense of pride in ALL craftsmanship,including the basic materials used.The old motors had to be made out of USA steel and metals,and even today I doubt we would see that same quality out of American steel and metal.
I mean look at these trains,they were produced as "TOYS"!!!,and the craftsmanship and pride that went into Lionels from 1900-1969 will probably never be recaptured,as profit margins and greed are the only thing most companies are concerned with these days.
Back in those days,there was just a sense of pride in ALL craftsmanship,including the basic materials used.The old motors had to be made out of USA steel and metals,and even today I doubt we would see that same quality out of American steel and metal.
I mean look at these trains,they were produced as "TOYS"!!!,and the craftsmanship and pride that went into Lionels from 1900-1969 will probably never be recaptured,as profit margins and greed are the only thing most companies are concerned with these days.
"is this just an urban legend in the making?"
I suspect this is the case.
Regarding the wheels (mentioned several posts above), the profile of the MTH and Bowser wheels is very close to the originals (the finish is excellent, too). The profile on McCoy and M.E.W. wheels is not the same (at least on the ones that I have).
I discovered this when re-wheeling a 10E. It becomes more critical when doing a 402 or 408, as when the trucks pivot to negotiate the stock radius Standard Gauge track, some wheels will bind against the frames on one side. The McCoy wheels are slightly smaller in the diameter of the treaded portion of the wheel, with deeper flanges. So much so that I could not run my 385E (re-wheeled with McCoy wheels) on the garden railroad I had 20 years ago (the flanges hit the ties on the Gargraves track.
MTH and Bowser wheels are, IMHO, better in both of these areas.
When was the last time you had to rewind an armature from a modern manufacture open frame three pole motor?
Couple of years ago, a Pride Lines Hiawatha motor. It wasn't the armature, it was the field coil, but it blew and it would have had to be rewound except by then I'd had enough of Pride Lines mechanical/electrical quality and I replaced it with a Lionel Classics imported motor. The Pride Lines motor is still in my junk box; the imported replacement motor still runs fine.
" Is this just an urban legend in the making "?
My personal observation is that it is not a legend. I am certainly not a metallurgist and my scientific knowledge as compared to many who post on this forum is quite rudimentary but I don't believe my visual and tactile senses deceive me. When I compare the metal components of my post-war motive power with that of new present day engines as well as the new reproductions of many Lionel pre and post war engines I find the contrast to be stark. In my opinion the metal used in the pre and post-war offerings certainly looks and feels superior to what is being used today. Certainly the quality of the metal used during the pre-war and post-war eras in producing the drive rod and valve gear assemblies all the way down to the side rod screws, drive rod screws, shoulder screws and the eccentric crank screws of steam locomotives was considerably heavier and much more durable than that what is being manufactured today. Today's offerings are lighter, flimsier and much softer than their earlier counterparts. I have taken numerous post-war Lionel engines and compared them with their modern day reproductions virtually piece by piece and have found my observations to be accurate.
I have found modern day metal hardware is often not made to the required specifications and must be machined by the consumer in order to be used as a replacement part and it has not been the least bit unusual for these screws, washers and rivets to snap off or twist out of shape with just routine use. Drive rod assemblies are prone to the same problems. The components are just not as heavy or strong. Taking a page out of old Josh Cowen's playbook pick up an original post-war #50 Gang Car in one hand and a modern day reproduction in the other and feel the difference in heft and weight between the two. Believe me you will find the original much heavier. Do the comparison with a set of F3s and you will also notice the difference.
I fully realize zinc pest was a real problem in early metal parts production but that was when that production method was in its infancy and would almost have to be accepted but for that to happen today is in my opinion unpardonable. Unfortunately, there are far too many examples of that happening in modern era manufacturing. I have seen it, heard of it and read of it too often for it to be myth.
This is really a moot point. Lionel and MTH are not going to bring back manufacturing to the USA any time soon. So, we're stuck with what's being made or searching for old stuff.
In my observations, the older stuff may be slightly heavier, and maybe the nickel and chrome plating were done better. But they were true toys, and the paint was full of sag lines and drips. New stuff still suffers from metal decay, and paint issues.
In either case, when talking about the need for repair, rewinding, etc on prewar motors, well, they are 75 to 100 years old.
As for repro parts, MTH has good parts. They need to be good because they manufacture them for their products and as a benefit, we can back fit them to original equipment.
I've had no issue with them, or anything that I have ever bought from Model Engineering.
However, I rewheeled an original 1935 265E motor with Bowser wheels and when it ran, it looked like it was limping. The back of the loco would bob up and down. This lasted about 45 seconds before the engine fell over and dog earred the original cab. The fault ended up being a common issue at the time, in that the axle holes in the Bowser wheels were not drilled concentric with the rim. Never bought another set of Bowser wheels.
So everything has pluses and minuses. There are no absolutes. My new Lionel red comet took some time to "break in", and I have a 1916 Lionel 156 that will run rings around any other O gauge train I own.
