What locomotives should be brought home

NS6770Fan posted:

What locomotives do you guys think should be brought back to their original home rails? This is just a “railfan” page, so please do NOT start arguements about things. I have decided on 3.

1 PRR 4700 to RRMPA

2 PRR 4483 to RRMPA

3 Get thatGG1 out of Texas and brought to somewhere in PA!

First, what is "PRR 4700" and "PRR 4483"?

Second, why would the RRMPA want any additional locomotives?

Hot Water posted:

NS6770Fan posted:

What locomotives do you guys think should be brought back to their original home rails? This is just a “railfan” page, so please do NOT start arguements about things. I have decided on 3.

1 PRR 4700 to RRMPA

2 PRR 4483 to RRMPA

3 Get thatGG1 out of Texas and brought to somewhere in PA!

First, what is "PRR 4700" and "PRR 4483"?

Second, why would the RRMPA want any additional locomotives?

PRR 4700 is the last P5, and the 4483 is the last Pennsy Decapod. 

A big question missing an answer is why these locomotives should be "brought back" to their "original homes"?  What constitutes and original home?  What claim do these original homes as you call them have to these locomotives?

You say it's a rail fan question but as this is the real trains forum reality has to be a part of it.  There are legal and logistical realities to all of this.

TexasSP posted:

 

You say it's a rail fan question but as this is the real trains forum reality has to be a part of it.  There are legal and logistical realities to all of this.

And financial.

Rusty

I was very pleased to have the opportunity to see N&W Y6a 2156 on display at VMT. Since it was designed and built in Roanoke, yes this engine got to come home.

Were I to win the Mega Millions Lottery, I'd be willing to fund operational restoration for it, and the 1218. It would be spectacular to hear and witness a Class A / Y6 take Blue Ridge one more time with a string of hoppers. We can't alter time, but I really wish I could have seen the N&W articulated engines working in their element.

Since there are numerous GG1s, I'm happy to see one at VMT. Were it the sole survivor, I do believe that it should be at a PRR Museum.

I believe that spreading locomotives across the country allows those of us who have never seen a Big Boy, Turbine, Cab Forward, etc, etc,etc, to view them and enjoy them.  Just as those in other parts of the country have never seen a GG1 or P5.  

I'd like to see the Railroad Museum of PA get their roundhouse structure built so that their PRR K4s and M1b locomotives could be restored and displayed out of the elements.  If that were done and a mutually satisfactory deal could be arranged between the WNYRHS and the RRMPA it would indeed be interesting for the locomotive to be restored and displayed under cover along with the other PRR power in the RRMPA collection.  As the 4483 is a very significant element in the WNYRHS collection as long as that group is a functioning entity I doubt they would give up the locomotive.  Here is a link to a 2017 photo of I1s 4483 on WNYRHS property at Hamburg NY.http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=4826800  and apparently the society has done some preservation/painting/ maintenance on the locomotive over the many years they have owned it.  The text above the picture provides some background on when the locomotive, once  in the PRR historical collection at Northumberland PA,  came to be separated from the other locomotives now in the RRMPA collection.  

Further info in PRR I1sa 4483 background and status.  Note reference to an intent to display the locomotive indoors in Buffalo. NY at the Heritage DiscoveRY Center someday.   http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/4483Frame1Source1.htm

DL&W #952 should have been returned to Scranton from the St Louis MOT.  A very bad case study into the pitfalls of equipment on long term loan that every museum and preservation entity should be aware of.  

Dan Padova posted:

I believe that spreading locomotives across the country allows those of us who have never seen a Big Boy, Turbine, Cab Forward, etc, etc,etc, to view them and enjoy them.  Just as those in other parts of the country have never seen a GG1 or P5.  

I concur.

It's nice to be able to see the GG1, the Big Boy, etc.. at the new Railroad Museum in Frisco, Tx.

They are slowly building a nice collection, and  will be building more covered/enclosed spaces.The move of Big Boy 4018 from the old Dallas Fair Park location to Frisco was quite something.  It was the same for the GG1, which was cosmetically restored to PRR livery (long before Frisco got it) after it's years in service in Amtrak livery.

Having the locomotives, passenger cars, and freight cars brings to life the railroad, especially for kids who are not from an area where seeing trains is an every day occurrence.

That's my take on it. FWIW

Keystoned Ed posted:

Further info in PRR I1sa 4483 background and status.  Note reference to an intent to display the locomotive indoors in Buffalo. NY at the Heritage DiscoveRY Center someday.   http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/4483Frame1Source1.htm

here's some more good pics of her on this site

http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/old4483.htm

Recently, two New Haven Railroad EMD FL-9s (vintage 1955-1960) which had been languishing for years in Metro-North Railroad's Lamberton Street Yard in New Haven were sold and taken to a buyer in Texas who plans to remove the original McGuiness paint scheme and repaint and run them on a tourist railroad. In my opinion, anyone who acquires a historic locomotive or any railroad artifact has an obligation to preserve it in a manner that recognizes its historic significance. Part of that obligation, also in my opinion, is to keep it or return it to the region where it ran and people once saw it.

MELGAR

MELGAR posted:

Recently, two New Haven Railroad EMD FL-9s (vintage 1955-1960) which had been languishing for years in Metro-North Railroad's Lamberton Street Yard in New Haven were sold and taken to a buyer in Texas who plans to remove the original McGuiness paint scheme and repaint and run them on a tourist railroad. In my opinion, anyone who acquires a historic locomotive or any railroad artifact has an obligation to preserve it in a manner that recognizes its historic significance. Part of that obligation, also in my opinion, is to keep it or return it to the region where it ran and people once saw it.

MELGAR

Using that logic, Grand Canyon and Napa Valley Wine Train would have to run their FA's in VIA or CN.

Which defeats the purpose of buying equipment for a private operation 

These tourist operations usually wind up saving the "historic artifacts" from the torch.

Rusty

after a little more searching I see the tender for the PRR #4483. It says on the pic site by the photographer that it's sent out for refurbishment.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=5018335

Rusty Traque posted:

MELGAR posted:

Recently, two New Haven Railroad EMD FL-9s (vintage 1955-1960) which had been languishing for years in Metro-North Railroad's Lamberton Street Yard in New Haven were sold and taken to a buyer in Texas who plans to remove the original McGuiness paint scheme and repaint and run them on a tourist railroad. In my opinion, anyone who acquires a historic locomotive or any railroad artifact has an obligation to preserve it in a manner that recognizes its historic significance. Part of that obligation, also in my opinion, is to keep it or return it to the region where it ran and people once saw it.

MELGAR

Using that logic, Grand Canyon and Napa Valley Wine Train would have to run their FA's in VIA or CN.

Which defeats the purpose of buying equipment for a private operation 

These tourist operations usually wind up saving the "historic artifacts" from the torch.

Rusty

I agree with Rusty. It would be lovely to see old stuff in it's old livery and in its old haunts but I'm just delighted to see anything get reused/repurposed and thus preserved.

It will be a sad day when the East Broad Top is scattered to the wind because that is an intact in-situ setup with shops. Context and much history will be lost but I'd much rather that that to have that wonderful old equipment fall to the scrapper's torch.

BTW, do all here remember that the East Broad Top was bought by a scrapper who saved it? 

"Nick Kovalchick, president of Kovalchick Salvage, elected not to scrap the railroad right away, instead letting it sit in place. In 1960, the twin boroughs of Orbisonia and Rockhill Furnace—the latter being the operating hub for the railroad—celebrated their Bicentennial and asked Kovalchick to put a train out for display. Doing them one better, he rehabilitated four miles of track and two locomotives and operated tourist train rides for several months that summer. The new attraction was so successful that the ride, extended to five miles (8 km), opened as a regular tourist operation in 1961."

Lew

Engineer-Joe posted:

after a little more searching I see the tender for the PRR #4483. It says on the pic site by the photographer that it's sent out for refurbishment.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=5018335

That tender is going to ride behind PRR 5550 when she’s done. They met an agreement to restore it.

What a refreshing dose of reality from the Western New York Railway Historical Society:

 GNNPNUT

Yes, that was reportedly the last 16-wheel long-haul PRR tender in existence - needs a bit of refurbing and streamlining to match up to # 5550 T1, but apparently a far lesser expense than building a new long-haul tender from scratch.  According to the T1 Trust website:

The T1 Trust has purchased the 200,000-pound PRR long haul tender #6659 from the Western New York Railway Historical Society (WNYRHS) that had been used behind an M1 locomotive. Essentially a T1 tender minus the streamlining, this acquisition negates the need to build a new tender for the T1 locomotive. Design, construction, and fabrication of a new tender was estimated at $3 million out of the project's total $10 million budget.

The tender holds 31 tons of coal and 18,000 gallons of water. The tank is the last of its kind - no other Coast-to-Coast tenders with 16-wheels are known to exist. The tender is in excellent condition with sealed hatches, minor surface rust, and well-preserved trucks, thanks to the tender's low side walls that sheltered the trucks and bearings from weather. Jason Johnson, the T1 Trust's General Manager remarked after having visited the tender for a thorough inspection, "I just can't get over what great shape it's in".

The long haul tender was originally acquired by the WNYRHS to replace the gutted-out short tender for their PRR 2-10-0 I1sa locomotive. As part of the purchase agreement, the T1 Trust has agreed to fully restore the I1's tender tank to its original specifications as part of the WNYRHS's planned cosmetic restoration of the I1 locomotive. The cost of the I1's tender restoration is estimated to be approximately $75,000.

The T1 Trust has also made arrangements to store the tender at the WNYRHS's museum site, the Heritage Discovery Center, in Buffalo, NY for up to 30 years at a cost of $1 per year where it will be displayed alongside the PRR I1. WNYRHS President, Joseph Kocsis, Jr. expressed much enthusiasm for the agreement, "We're grateful to partner with the T1 Trust to make 5550 a reality. They bring a great deal of expertise to the table and we look forward to working with them in the restoration of our I1 tender and seeing the long haul tender return to its intended use".

T1 Trust members will travel to New York to complete a renovation of the brake system and replace the oil in the roller bearings. In addition, the Trust plans to sandblast, prime and paint the tender in the appropriate Brunswick green paint scheme. The overall cost of the tender preservation effort is at least $45,000. About half of the work will be donated, and the T1 Trust is seeking donations to cover the remaining cost.

Please take a moment to help preserve the tender for 5550. To learn more, please visit the T1 Trust’s Fundraising Center and make a tax-deductible contribution today. All donors who direct $500 or more to the 5550 Tender Preservation Fund will have their name engraved on a plaque which will be affixed to the tender.

You can follow the progress of the resurrection of the T1 here:

https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/news.php

  I hope to see 5361 back in Canada 

Top secret negotiations have recently occurred, as some one or group has purchased the loco

Al

Yup, that is my understanding as well, that the current generation has zero interest in the EBT. In any decent world the state would take over and finance and operate the EBT for the historical and cultural wonder that it is. The locomotive shop with all it's machinery intact and operational is a wondrous thing let alone the motive power and rolling stock.  The Orbisonia is priceless.

I took these pics August 2010:

When we returned July 2012 this is what the same spot looked like:

Lew

Well, unfortunately the millennial generation and up have less interest in trains than older people. Which means that as the older owners of tourist railroads like EBT retire, their offspring will probably not care what happens to it. Joe’s son could probably care less if the railroad is scrapped or even buildings razed or steam locomotives sent to the torch. It’s just the sad reality. The younger guys have less of a connection to the past than older people. They are more concerned about their future. The only reason EBT survived as a tourist railroad in the first place was because Nick didn’t scrap it and it proved to be a popular tourist attraction. But most of the rest of the railroad has been rotting away since 1956. Trees growing through tracks. Tunnels in sad shape. Bridges in poor shape.

Robert K posted:

Well, unfortunately the millennial generation and up have less interest in trains than older people. Which means that as the older owners of tourist railroads like EBT retire, their offspring will probably not care what happens to it. Joe’s son could probably care less if the railroad is scrapped or even buildings razed or steam locomotives sent to the torch. It’s just the sad reality. The younger guys have less of a connection to the past than older people. They are more concerned about their future. The only reason EBT survived as a tourist railroad in the first place was because Nick didn’t scrap it and it proved to be a popular tourist attraction. But most of the rest of the railroad has been rotting away since 1956. Trees growing through tracks. Tunnels in sad shape. Bridges in poor shape.

If Joe is in his 80's, then it is likely his son is probably the age many of on here who do care about trains are, it is more a common thing, where kids don't necessarily share the passion of their parents when they take over the business (for example, take a look at Walmart, when Sam Walton ran it customer service was a big part of the model, when his heirs took over customer service went out the window).  I don't think it has anything to do with the age of the children or what generation,just think they decided it wasn't important to them, gray haired or full head of hair, doesn't matter much

TexasSP posted:

A big question missing an answer is why these locomotives should be "brought back" to their "original homes"?  What constitutes and original home?  What claim do these original homes as you call them have to these locomotives?

You say it's a rail fan question but as this is the real trains forum reality has to be a part of it.  There are legal and logistical realities to all of this.

I think the OP was saying "in a perfect world, where the star all align, as a rail fan what engines would you like to see returned to their original road", this wasn't a discussion about practical reality,it was pure speculation. After all, this is more a rail fan site than a 'real trains' site, we aren't a bunch of financial types planning to run a railroad or rich benefactors deciding where to spend our money (where such a discussion might be relevant), lot of what we  talk about has no connotations whatsoever with 'real trains'. 

As many of us should have learned early in life, SHARING is good! So wherever a treasured locomotive is located, as long as it is maintained and people can appreciate it, that is a GOOD thing!

My fantasy is to see a K4 at Horseshoe Curve again like there used to be but.....there is a marked shortage of K4s. 

Lew

Reading 2101 should be moved to RR museum of Pa. While their collection consist mostly of PRR locomotives, the museum's goal is to represent the railroad heritage of Pennsylvania as a whole. The only Reading steam locomotive they own, 1251, is a shop switcher. A Reading T1s would be a good representation of the Reading for their collection. In particular, 2101 should be in their collection because it has little relevance to the B&O RR museum (current owner) and its condition is deteriorating there. 

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought the point of the question was more like: "Which locomotives should be brought home..." from places like York! 

Mark in (still very wet) Oregon

The Illinois Railway Museum has a number of locomotives which never ran in Illinois, or in the Midwest, for that matter. The sad fact is that if they weren't in the museum's collection, most, if not all, would have been scrapped. It is better to be preserved in "foreign territory" than to be lost forever. Also, it gives the visitors a chance to see what powered trains elsewhere. ( We have a NYC S2 electric, a PRR GG1, a N&W 2-8-8-2, and a SEPTA rapid transit car, amongst others, and we are glad they're here.)