What's the Future of Train Control Systems

AFAIC, this...

Whatever the future control system there is, the past systems will still be there.

Rusty

Hi George, being a G scaler converting all scales of trains I have been using radio control for over 20 years. No track power just using batteries. 

Today the batteries and r/c control systems offer long run times and all the  features with sound you expect from DCC/TMCC/DCS.  The difference is r/c control does not use any ancillary equipment or adapters, etc. Each loco has a radio receiver/ controller/sounds in the loco module.  All at a much lower cost. 

3 rail and 2 rail O scalers can now enjoy on-board r/c control powered from your track or battery.  

Don 

Rusty Traque posted:

Whatever the future control system there is, the past systems will still be there.

Rusty

I agree.  Simple, cheap, backwards compatible, and reliable are high on my priority list regarding the electronics systems.  The newer engines look and sound terrific,   when they are working.   I cant imagine the frustration and loss of my hair if I had one get stuck in reverse or loose their engine I.D. number.  As for the track, the third rail has never bothered me.

Heck, I'm still using Rev 1.0 software on my postwar e-units and smoke units.

I was running two battery powered engines at the club this morning.  The engine owner removed the Lionel electronics and replaced it with batteries, a sound system, and a radio control system.  The engines were consisted together and ran beautifully.  The problem is, besides the work of converting the engines, is that the cost of the battery / radio control system was about $400 per engine according the engines' owner.    

This cost is hard to justify, in my opinion, given that the Lionel engines already had perfectly good TMCC systems.  The cost of a battery / radio control system will need to come down if I am going to convert my engines.   The best solution would be for a manufacturer to start making battery powered engines.  NH Joe

Hi NH Joe, the RailPro control module is $167 w/sound. Then add a 3 hour battery and install kit for $84.  That's it. If I do the install , it cost more. 

Joe are you member of the Stamford group? If so Allen will be showing off the system in 2 RDC's and RS-3.  

Don

I understand that train control will be simple, inexpensive and reliable

One will just have to pull a lever to make the trains go. A simple button push to put the train in neutral or reverse and a simple button push for horn or whistle

I am definitely a fan of direct wireless control. Like many of us, I started out with conventional transformer operation and then went with TMCC in the 90's.  I felt strongly that a direct to loco wireless system would be an improvement over the two step TMCC setup. In 2011, I published details of a simple direct to loco wireless system of my design, which also included a battery powered version. Lionel apparently was in agreement as LionChief showed up shortly afterwards. The number of currently available direct wireless systems is substantial and growing. Pricing can be an issue for many of us. 

BOB WALKER posted:

I am definitely a fan of direct wireless control. Like many of us, I started out with conventional transformer operation and then went with TMCC in the 90's.  I felt strongly that a direct to loco wireless system would be an improvement over the two step TMCC setup. In 2011, I published details of a simple direct to loco wireless system of my design, which also included a battery powered version. Lionel apparently was in agreement as LionChief showed up shortly afterwards. The number of currently available direct wireless systems is substantial and growing. Pricing can be an issue for many of us. 

This confirms my opinion on code sent through the rails.  I am not an electrical engineer, but I have been a MS network and SCO Unix administrator from the early days of network computing.  That experience will show you the importance of "clean connections".  Sending code through rails, dirty track, rail connectors, alloy wheels, and wipers seems ripe for problems....do it wirelessly.  In the recent past I have stated my opinion openly on this forum, and the best electrical guys have taken umbrage to it  Truly, there are people who operate these rail-based control systems with a minimum of problems. Yet, I will let the countless threads on DCS and TMCC problems and headaches speak for themselves.  What little I do, I do conventionally until I see a clear winner emerge in train control.  We shall see...

Direct to loco wireless systems can come in several flavors. There is 800/900 MHZ RF, Bluetooth and WiFi (really pretty new for direct to loco). Cost varies widely depending on which system, but should eventually come down over time. Systems which use smart device apps for control avoid the cost of a hand held controller which helps. One point sometimes overlooked is that a battery powered loco only makes sense when coupled with a direct to loco wireless system.

Hi Bob, we can learn a lot from the r/c airplane radio manufactures. Spectrum technology on the 2.4Ghz frequency offers more advantages to operating trains then any other wireless method. Ring Engineering uses Direct Radio. There is a lot of info about why they choose radio over Wi-Fi/Bluetooth/APPs posted on their web site, under FAQ.  Example, a Wi-Fi circuit on-board would be 6 " long, which will not fit into any of our trains. Bluetooth & Wi-Fi on DCC  response time can slow down with multiple users and locos running at the same time. Not an issues with Direct Radio . It takes less than 10 seconds to add another engine or create a consist. 

I thank everyone for engaging in this conversation.

Don

The direct connection model makes a lot of sense, between the rapid change in battery technology and with the advancement of wireless technology , including what may be a game changer, local 5G technology, that will (in theory) resolve issues with latency on current Wifi or Bluetooth implementation. I had one person tell me that radio control wouldn't work, that having the signals go over the rails is 'the only way to go'..and they had Legacy! (Legacy transmits its signals using the ground wire in your house wiring, it is why legacy and tmcc engines have an antenna in them..). Batteries are heading not just to long life, but also rapid recharge (yeah, I know, the cars talking about 80% recharge in 15 minutes are talking about 800kw charging stations, which is like the power of 40 houses with 200 amp service, but that is rapidly changing as well). Likewise, the cost of implementing this will change as technology advances, to give you an idea of scaling things about how DCC that once had trouble fitting in an HO scale engine these days is being put in N scale engines (and I wouldn't be surprised with Z..). 

The real question might be around the bells and whistles (figuratively and literally!), advanced sound or the kind of features you might find on a vision legacy engine and the like. The real hope is that these wireless systems go the DCC route and are an open standard, rather than the proprietary systems we see with DCS and Legacy, among other things that will bring down the price. Among other things, this also will make converting existing engines over relatively easy, similar to adding DCC to a non DCC ready engine from what I know.

And the benefits are obvious, no tangle of wiring of power and command systems, no issues with track getting dirty, shorts, etc  (we might still have wiring for things like switch machines, to bring power to them, but they could easily be controlled via wireless control as well, or accessories and lighting, but that is not exactly most of our wiring). 

There are things working against this vision. For Lionel and MTH, they have a lot of vested interest in maintaining their proprietary systems, and even though for example Lionel is moving to where you can control a legacy engine or LC2.0 via bluetooth, I doubt they are heading to battery technology any time soon, for a lot of reasons (among other things, transformers are still part of their business line), and I doubt MTH and Lionel would join an open standards thing. 

In my opinion, until the major HO manufactures (Athearn, Walthers, Rapido, etc) sign on to offering battery control, it will remain an after-market user install.

Rusty

I believe battery power will come to the larger scales first, because present-day batteries are big!  Also, outdoor G-scale railroads may encounter issues keeping the track clean.

I perceive the biggest advantage of a "command base" architecture would be for a fully automated, computer-controlled layout.  Someone on the 3-rail DCC thread mentioned JMRI; I'm curious about this system.  A centralized command base makes sense if you're going to have a wired network of track sensors, and will control everything with a computer.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be a lot of folks using Lionel's Layout Control System (LCS.)  And MTH sent a cease-and-desist letter to an individual who was developing a computer app to control DCS.  I think he ultimately succeeded, but a lot of the early interest was quashed as a result of the legal wrangling.

I guess computer control would still be possible with direct R/C by connecting the dispatching computer to a radio transceiver.  There are a lot of interesting possibilities.  Other than the costs, I'm excited about the future!! 

Ted S posted:

I believe battery power will come to the larger scales first, because present-day batteries are big!  Also, outdoor G-scale railroads may encounter issues keeping the track clean.

I'm pretty sure batteries and R/C control are already pretty well established in Large Scale, but it's still user installed.  I don't believe anyone is offering factory-equipped locomotives.

Rusty

Gentleman, today I received the first battery r/c loco from a manufacturer. PIKO of Germany has delivered the first G scale on board battery r/c controlled loco. It is a 25 Ton Diesel. Very basic with no sound. List price includes the loco $285. You can get the r/c system separately for $99. Uses a key FOB for the transmitter and 3A loco receiver. Battery holder is inside the hood. Holds 6 AAA batteries. 

Maybe this is the start of the future.

Don

Apps

Don Sweet posted:

Gentleman, today I received the first battery r/c loco from a manufacturer. PIKO of Germany has delivered the first G scale on board battery r/c controlled loco. It is a 25 Ton Diesel. Very basic with no sound. List price includes the loco $285. You can get the r/c system separately for $99. Uses a key FOB for the transmitter and 3A loco receiver. Battery holder is inside the hood. Holds 6 AAA batteries. 

Maybe this is the start of the future.

Don

Actually, Bachmann offered the first "serious" R/C loco during the 1980's with their first G scale entry "Big Hauler" 27Mhz set.  4-6-0, flat car, gondola, bobber caboose and oval of plastic track.  The controller had a slide control and collapsible antenna.  The loco could use either D-cells or an R/C battery and used a 9v battery in the tender for chuff sounds.

Google "bachmann big hauler radio control" for images.

IRRC it retailed for about $150.

Perhaps it was before its time, following Bachmann G-scale sets came with traditional DC track power.

Rusty

Oh yeah, my son was gifted one of those (by his grandparents) back when he was really young.

I seem to recall that once it was "loaded", it used most of its power just moving all that battery weight!

His interest didn't last too long...

Mark in Oregon