What's wrong with O scale manufacturers, why can't this be consistently done in O gauge with Santa Fe engines

I am very ready for a stainless steel plated A-B-B-A Vision Line F3 consist with fixed pilot and scale coupler on lead engine.  I am prepared to pay the Vision Line price as long as in addition to stunning good looks it has enveloping pushing features that add significant play value that I have come to expect from the Vision Line.

As I recall there was a recent thread in which a wish list of features for this consist was discussed.

Here is my list...

1 B unit is dedicated to super bass

1 B unit is a new and improved Legacy break down sequence with smoke and sounds

All units have operating cooling fans

All units have the kinematic close coupling feature and the diaphragms actually touch

I am sure others can add to this list.

This is an excellent example of a thread that makes a very good point, while not really offending anyone. The Sante Fe road name has a huge fan base among 3-Rail O-Gauge folks. I agree that this would make a very good candidate for a Vision Line offering.

Based upon what others have posted before about the desire for such a product, I think this one has a good chance to go into production.

As usual marker, you are right on the mark about this one.

Mike wolf said at York about a year ago or so that no stainless would ever be done again.

looks like its up to Lionel now. 

What about Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot announcing THEIR versions of F7 A and B units, in both Santa Fe freight and passenger styling? Maybe THEY will do the stainless steel correctly.

Yes, I am ready as well.

I'd be in if they used polished aluminum.  Chrome plated plastic wouldn't hold up, and I don't see them actually using stainless steel.

I bet most of the time when the question is "why don't they . . ." the answer is that they perceive no profit in that particular endeavor.

If in fact they are wrong, that is what enables the good old American entrepreneurial spirit.

Opinion.

What about Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot announcing THEIR versions of F7 A and B units, in both Santa Fe freight and passenger styling? Maybe THEY will do the stainless steel correctly.

I was hoping for that.  I'm sure that the Freight version will be correct, although I think there's doing the late version as above.  I exchanged a few emails with Scott and he was thinking two different silver paints.  That could work but it isn't as good as plated.

Here is an Atlas WP unit.  Atlas used two different paints to get a stainless effect.

Here's a previously posted picture:

I sent this picture to Scott as a last resort.  The LED's I used to light the picture exaggerated the stainless effect, but it is still noticeable when properly lit.  If you compare the lower panel behind the cab door with the silver used in front of the door you get an idea of what Atlas did.  I'm pretty sure it was the same paint they used for the early run CZ cars.  (Atlas changed the paint in the last CZ run.)  

Two different paints may work, but I would have to see it first.

 Chrome plated plastic wouldn't hold up, and I don't see them actually using stainless steel.

It seems to work with HO and S, why not O?  Also, it's not the chrome plating they did years ago on the Lionel Burlington units.  I don't know what they use for HO and I'd love for Rusty to comment on how his units have held up.

I'm pretty sure that the use of "chrome plated plastic", or whatever it is, has been successfully used in the HO market for many, many years. Just look at this "Genesis" Santa Fe diesel models from Athearn. 

Outside opinion here, kinda, as I am not looking for any ATSF diesels (What? The Santa Fe had diesels? Don't tell my 2-10-4.):

- I haven't seen these "chrome" or "stainless" efforts, but I do know that small plastic

pieces with "chrome" in the past looked pretty bad.

- but: I know that times and technology have changed.

- and, on that subject, the idea that "chromed plastic" does not hold up...well, in

1955 it did not, but today? All those oversized pickup truck grilles (and other automotive

grilles) are indeed truly chromed plastic. The finish is chrome - a metal - but the parts 

underneath are 100% plastic, and have been for years. Better than the old steel - no rust, lightweight. A couple of decades or so ago the process was developed that could plate

plastics with metal, and the end result is the front of a Ford F-950 pickup truck.

Good grief, that's an embarrassingly big load of shine! All plastic below (not the truck's main structure, of course). 

Of course that does not mean that the same high-quality process would be used in a

model setting, but "plastic chrome" now has nothing to do with those 1950's AF PA's.

Way back in the dim, distant, geologic past, when I was fooling with 1/25th scale

auto models (designed to be hot-rodded), and I am not sure this is

the process "anodized?", but the kit boxes were full of bumpers and valve covers

and beaucoup parts in blinding, shiny "chrome".  Later, in HO, I remember seeing

HO ATSF F units with those sides cast in dull gray plastic. Blah! Does it have something to do with one piece body castings, because if they did the whole thing in "chrome", the red paint, like those auto models, is not going to stick to it.  This might require the shells to be cast in more than one piece...which would drive up the cost, and  create a potential for mismatching when assembled?   Just a wild guess....

D500 posted:

- I haven't seen these "chrome" or "stainless" efforts, but I do know that small plastic

pieces with "chrome" in the past looked pretty bad.

Maybe not in person but here along with Rusty's S gauge picture are Athearn and Walthers HO units :

S scale:

Athearn:

Walthers Proto 2000 F7 

It's a cost thing......

vacuum plating takes time (time is money) is costly compared to paint and has the potential of a high reject rate on parts as large as a O scale F unit.

Not all factory's have vacuum plating onsite. It's a HUGE complicated machine. It is a requirement in our hobby, plastic model kits, but not sure model train manufactures have them....and if they have to send it to a contract vendor to have plated....more cost!! 

It can be done....but they must feel like we would not be willing to pay the cost.

As the owner of the aforementioned S Scale locomotives, I would have to say that both Athearn and Walther's got the stainless steel simulation "right."   Reflective, but not too reflective.

The SHS locomotives are very nice (if I do say so myself...) but the simulated stainless steel is a little too reflective in my opinion, practically mirror-like.  I've thought of trying to dull it down a bit, but as things stand right now, the locomotives are irreplaceable if I screw up.  (MTH will be offering Santa Fe F3's in S, but using the early numbers that had painted side panels.)

Ironically, when SHS ran their ad showing the Santa Fe F7's, the plating wasn't as reflective, looking more like the Walther's example.

Rusty

Good post Dave and I agree, but how is it that the S gauge manufacturer was able to do it and be successful.

Also, if the factory is able, how much would it add to the price?  I would pay a higher price knowing that the manufacturer was incurring a greater cost.  Also, Santa Fe engines have always been a best selling, bread and butter engine.  It's not like your asking to do a stainless Kansas City Southern unit (if there was one).  

I think a pre-announced, perhaps BTO (built to order) Lionel stainless paneled F3 (properly detailed and properly numbered 22 through 36) or F7 would tell the story.  If they were going to charge more, they would have to be more specific than the usual buyer beware catalog issue.  

Didn't American Flyer use plating on many of their PAs? Don

I have no idea on cost........The guys I work with include plated parts in the kits....but cost analysis is way above my pay grade. I know if you send a part about 8.5 x 9 inches to a plastic plater in the US we are talking $50 or so.  

Why the S scale guys did....again it boiled down to where it was manufactured....plus they are a little smaller which also helps a lot!

Good post, good replies. As a former HO and the N modeler, now of course into "O". I agree, why can it be done on the smaller scales, and I don't see that huge of price increases, if any, yet can't be done for "O"?

I also wonder why the other makers of "HO", "N", and yes, even "Z" scales make so many new products released each month? Yet so little in "O". Maybe, if new and bold chances are taken, new releases, such as the recent "Big Boy", maybe, just maybe, interest will increase in "O" scale. Maybe it may take a Loco/diesel only available in "O" scale. Let's quit shuffling and start taking steps.

Sanda Kan was the builder for SHS.  Reportedly, they had a lot of trouble with the plating.  According to Don Thomson, the former owner of SHS, S-K said in effect, "Never again."

Rusty

Plating is the easiest and cheapest part of the process!!!! Think if you will....you get a body plated perfect, spend all the time in assembly and a worker accidentally scratches it!!! You then have to disassemble it and start over...more than likely tossing the body in the trash! The extra cast in handling and assembly is hard to charge a company and justify the overall run cost.  Plating...cheap....the rest of the process....costly and difficult to price out!

Personally, I am always interested in the opinions of other Forumites.  However, the Santa Fe side panel issue does not really need a lot of discussion.  They have been producing realistic-looking Santa Fe rednose diesels in HO scale for some time, that are half the size of O gauge and yet look much more realistic in the side panels, headlights, and horn and windshield wiper sizes.

It can be done.  Somebody just has to be willing to do it.  They can have the carbodies painted with the same process Athearn uses, even if they have to be shipped to the same factory Athern uses, for decoration.  Most people will pay more for a realistic Santa Fe passenger unit because the extra production cost is the only way to get the desired result.

Hi, don't mean to rub salt in your wounds but here's my E-8s in G scale.  Produced by AristoCraft.  I guess I bought these about 5 years ago, I think.  I think I paid around $285.00 each for these.  Way less than O scale would be.

And they are BEAUTIFUL!!!

Rick

I guess detective work is needed to track down who and where did the several versions in other scales...such as the Aristocraft G scale versions above.   I assume,

like chrome kitchen furniture, now shopped for in Canada, the process was chased

out of the U.S. by ecomania.

I don't model Santa Fe but I agree plating looks waaay better than silver paint. I have seen the MTH models with plating and they are gorges!

I have asked about this before. I need to paint 2 weaver E8s. Suggestions leaned toward a product called Al_Clad. Can't find it in town and really don't think I want to spent the extra bucks right now. Any other suggestions using Scale CoatII or another brand of Aluminum?

Thanks

Dick

Stainless Steel is a common component of old style windshield wiper blades.

Stainless Steel would be the most durable material.

Andrew

The problem with stainless is the edges at the thickness required would make the parts behave like very large razor blades. They would easily cut workers and owners. I've worked with stainless in .010" & .016" and one very minor slip and its off to the e.r.

Ron

Checking in today, there is a lot of good info.  I'm glad Rusty was able to follow up.

AMCDave posted:

I know if you send a part about 8.5 x 9 inches to a plastic plater in the US we are talking $50 or so.

I've always thought the metalizer process was fantastic, although I have no idea about the cost.  It would probably be north of what AMCDave posted because of the number of steps in the process.

I'm pretty sure this is also a car painted with a metalizer.  You would think it was real if it wasn't for the Kadee coupler.

Here is a link to a plater I have used in the past. Currently a 6 x 8 frame is $24 but they can do entire passenger car bodies or loco shells via phone estimates. Great service in the past.

http://www.chrometechusa.com/price-sheet.html

Using a metallic paint will vary greatly.....some are a few dollars a bottle to $100's per bottle....plus prerp.

Chrome!  Not what the original poster is talking about, but I purchased this by mistake thinking I was buying an MTH replica of the Lionel F3.

It would be a total sell-out of a model.  Bring them on, plenty of buyers here!!!

I now see that valid but differing opinions as found with all egalitarian and totalitarianist venues, is entirely manipulated and CONTROLLED on this banal kid's toy web Blogg. 

I would like each and everyone of my postings on this site, including those written by myself and then quoted by others, removed!

Would it still be as much of a fight to get today's builders to commit to such an undertaking?

Sounds like there was some specialized knowledge that enabled this effort to produce results. How commonplace is this kind of knowledge in our corner of the industry, and do you believe it would be just as much of a slap-fight with their builders to do it with our present collection of importer/builders?

I recall asking Maury Klein years ago (at one of the Toy Fair open houses for KCC members) about some of the cars K-Line produced in chromed plastic. His answer gave the impression that it was a huge pain in the butt (something about having to apply the plating to the mold before each shot) with a high reject rate on top of everything else. 

---PCJ

"Here is my list...

1 B unit is dedicated to super bass

1 B unit is a new and improved Legacy break down sequence with smoke and sounds

All units have operating cooling fans

All units have the kinematic close coupling feature and the diaphragms actually touch"

sound in every unit. 

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but it is so in tune with what I'm finding - as a young person who really wants to delve into O gauge, I'm disappointed in what I've found... 

Santa Fe purchased 215 F-7 A units (third highest overall) - and only MTH has attempted to recreate the accurate paint scheme for the majority of the locos (with that goofy tether).  It's too bad. At 33, I'm a baby as far as this adult hobby is concerned - and while there seems to be plenty accurate scale Dash-8s and 9s, the period that really excites me are the nostalgic years I connect with - those 10 years right before I was born - not all that different from the boomer affinity for steam and 40s and early 50s diesels. 

It's funny - I go into the local stores and they always assume I'm there for HO because O gauge retailers apparently don't see me as a demographic they can sell stuff to. They are right of course, they can't because the manufacturers don't make what I want. For companies so focused on nostalgia, you'd think they'd produce accurate locomotives that an average 30-something would be nostalgic over - and could fit into their budget. 

I personally would love to see accurate scale, highly detailed units, with basic innards - I'm young and I want top of the line scale accurate details - not conventional classics or lionchief - I really want to delve in, but financially I'm not at a point where I can invest in Legacy or DCS equipped everything. I personally would rather have 10 conventional locos than 1 Legacy loco - To me, if they really want to increase their market, manufacturers would sell everything as conventional and offer optional upgrades to better internal equipment.  

... disappointing to me, I just learned that 3rd Rail has Cigarbands in their F7 production list.  More disappointment -  they aren't interested in marketing them to me - at $599 a unit, they certainly aren't within my 33 year old budget.  I can't build a freight train on $600 locos.  Likewise, I can't have F7 switchers when they have to be tethered - which according to my father, were era accurate to Topeka and Argentine in the early to mid-70s before they were trashed into CF7s.  

I will say that Lionel's recent scale offerings - the '89 auto rack and '86 boxcars are going in the right direction. That's just the kind of item that interests me. 

As for locos, I guess I'm stuck digging through the crums of yesteryear's cast-offs. 

I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of my goal.   I had HO and G gauge as a kid - to me HO is a toy and G is just too darn big for indoors.  Yes HO allows your to model more prototypical railroads - but  O just feels like the ideal size for a model. I'm into the trains - I'm willing to suffer the limitations of a third rail track - and even high level trucks - but it'd be nice to have accurate paint, pilot details, and some added detailing - in a basic engine configuration - that a 33 year old on a limited budget could enter into the hobby with - instead of pushing us away with high costs, extra electronics, or other gauges.

Back to the Santa Fe - it'd be nice if someone would just do an actual Cigarband without a goofy tether.  They've had 60 years to accomplish that.  =)