S Wheels 'N Things...

What is shown above is consistent with what has been described in recent LionelAF catalogs and with verbal comments made by responsible Lionel representatives (e.g., Remy Convery, Matt Ashba, Bill Leto) to anyone who asked at York or via e-mail over the last 9 months. Many hopefully will find the displayed product reassuring for the future.

Thanks to johnnyspeed and Rusty for this useful informational update.

Bob

+1 on all counts...

Mark in Oregon

You are more than welcome guys. I just wanted to provide a little concrete evidence to those folks that are finding it hard to adjust to the way Lionel and MTH do business.

I was told by Will Holt of the NASG that this car with scale wheels was tested on all track types including original AF track and apparently it runs just fine with the scale wheels.

The only nit-pick is that it rides a little high, but there is a fix for that I'm told.

Interestingly, the O gauge equivalent to this car comes with tinplate wheels. 

http://www.lionelstore.com/tra...n-train-freight.html  

Well Ed, there's NO scale wheels offered for ANY of the O gauge line.  So, we're a step ahead...

Seriously, I'm just finally glad to finally have some visual validation that scale wheels do exist for the cylindrical hopper.

I have the BN on order and am looking forward to completing the scalification process(mounting Kadee's) and what can be done to lower the car if it indeed rides too high.

Rusty

Hopefully you will let us all know the best method for lowering the height when the time comes.  I've been wondering if the scale trucks can simply be replaced with standard AF trucks for the Flyer guys.  That would not be very hard if it is doable.  Cheers....Ed L.

I would guess that the reference to running on all track types is directed to straights and turns, switches might be another story. I like a few of the paint schemes but would have to change to hirail wheelsets to clear switches.

Rich

Regarding the new AF cylindrical hopper, someone wrote:

>> I was told by Will Holt of the NASG that this car with scale wheels was tested on all track types including original AF track and apparently it runs just fine with the scale wheels.

This might well be the first instance in recorded history of a true scale wheel running through both a scale switch and an AF switch without problems.  I found it rather amazing and asked Will Holt about it.  Here is his reply excerpted for brevity:

------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Ed; 

What ever you heard was not totally accurate.  At this point I have tested the cars on Gilbert AF track and American Model Track with Tom's Turnouts and Track work switches.  I have not yet had the time to check them on scale switches,

Will Holt

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the jury is still out regarding operation on scale turnouts/switches.  Too soon to tell.

Just trying to set the record straight.  Hopefully no one will get bent out of shape.

Cheers......Ed L.

So what? Wouldn't one expect a car that has scale wheels to negotiate scale turnouts? The issue that is in question is whether or not they would work on Hi-Rail or AF track and turnouts. Will told me directly, to my face exactly what his response stated. "Gilbert AF track and American Model Track".

Why would there be a question about scale wheels on scale track? I'm really confused by that comment.

>> Wouldn't one expect a car that has scale wheels to negotiate scale turnouts?

If both the wheels and trackwork are "scale" as defined by the NMRA/NASG standards, then the wheels and track will work harmoniously together.  If, however, the Lionel/AF scale wheels are somehow different from the NMRA/NASG specifications, then there is no telling how things might operate.  An incompatibility could, in theory, exist.  At this point, we don't really know what the dimensions of the cylindrical hopper wheels are and they have not yet been run on scale track.  Thus, the jury is still out and things remain to be seen.

>> The issue that is in question is whether or not they would work on Hi-Rail or AF track and turnouts.

That might well be the issue from your perspective.  And that is fine.  An AF guy should be concerned about that.  However, from the perspective of the scale modeler, the question is whether or not they will work on his layout with scale track -- mainly the turnouts.  Thus far, we really do not know the answer to that question.  Keep in mind that the Lionel definition of "scale" is not always the same as the rest of the model railroading world.

>> Will told me directly, to my face exactly what his response stated. "Gilbert AF track and American Model Track".

Your post to this group stated it had been tested on "on all track types" which would include scale track as part of "all".  In fact, the cylindrical hopper car has not been tested on scale track and we do not know how things will work there.  Sounds to me like Will made an accurate statement that was inadvertently distorted somewhat when posted to this forum.

>> Why would there be a question about scale wheels on scale track? 

If the Lionel/AF wheels are truly compliant with NMRA/NASG specifications and they are operated on compliant trackwork, there should not be any problems.  Gilbert AF switches are not NMRA/NASG compliant.  And American Model's track probably is not either.

The questions in my mind are simple:

1.  Is the Lionel/AF scale wheel really compliant with NMRA/NASG specs? So far, nobody has measured them to the best of my knowledge.

2.  If the wheels are not compliant, what is the result of running them on true scale trackage that is compliant.  So far, nobody has done that.

Thus, we really do not know if the cylindrical hoppers will run satisfactorily out of the box on a scale layout.  I am not saying there is a problem.  I am saying we do not know yet.  I am saying the original post on this matter is inaccurate.

>> I'm really confused by that comment.

Over the past 40 years or so, many folks have attempted to invent a turnout that can accommodate both AF and scale wheels and also look realistic.  Quite frankly, it has never been done except in one or two rare instances where the visual appearance of the turnout was so bad that no scale guy would want to use it.  The basic difficulty is that AF wheels are gauged much closer together than scale wheels.  The AF switches do not have guard rails and so the closer gauge is not an issue.  Scale turnouts do have guard rails and closer spacing causes problems since the flange will bump the guard rail and ride up and over it instead of rolling smoothly through the flangeway.

So when I see a report that a wheel runs through "all track types", it is really easy to wonder what kind of new invention has been created.  Is WONDER WHEEL now with us?  A lot of very smart people have worked on this problem for decades without finding an acceptable solution. 

And as of right now, we don't know if Lionel/AF has found a good solution to this problem.  I hope they have, but remain skeptical.  The laws of physics and gravity have not yet been suspended.

I am not making any accusations of a problem here.  And I am not saying Lionel/AF has a problem.  Please do not take it that way.  I am saying the report of the cylindrical hopper running through all track types is in error.

Cheers....Ed L.

I may have missed something at some point but is it a case that the cylindrical hoppers will come in the box with the new profile wheels as standard?

I would have thought that if they can't negotiate Flyer turnouts then it is a no-go. I also haven't seen any mention of Gargraves track and I would have to say that the new wheel sets are peobably not compatible with a tubular type track.

Also I can't see Lionel shipping this hopper with the new wheel sets as standard which are probably not going to work for the 85% normal hi-rail market. I would say that there will be an option like the locomotives where the 15% semi scale market lies to buy them as a conversion

>> I may have missed something at some point but is it a case that the cylindrical hoppers will come in the box with the new profile wheels as standard?

It has been known for some time now that the cylindrical hopper will come with "scale" wheels.  What is not known at this time is exactly what that means.  What, exactly, "scale" means in this specific instance in the Lionel/AF dictionary is not known.  Nor do we know if it will become a new standard for Lionel/AF.  I have not heard anything about "new profile" wheels and so cannot comment on that.

>> I would have thought that if they can't negotiate Flyer turnouts then it is a no-go.

Will Holt reports they run fine through AF turnouts.  I don't think there is cause for concern about that.  Lionel certainly knows that AF trackage is the dominant type in S.

>> I also haven't seen any mention of Gargraves track

Will Holt has not tested the new cylindrical hopper on Gargraves track.  So it is an unknown at this time.

>> I would have to say that the new wheel sets are peobably not compatible with a tubular type track.

I would think that conclusion is speculation at this point in time.  We just don't have enough information to reach that kind of conclusion.  After all, they ran fine with ACGilbert switches according to Will Holt.

>> Also I can't see Lionel shipping this hopper with the new wheel sets as standard which are probably not going to work for the 85% normal hi-rail market

Since Will Holt says he tested them on AF switches without a problem, I suspect they will work with most of the various hi-rail track brands.  But that is also speculation at this point.  I would think Lionel/AF is smart enough to figure that one out.

>> I would say that there will be an option like the locomotives where the 15% semi scale market lies to buy them as a conversion

When the dust settles, that might well be the case.  But at this point in time, we have no information about some other new different option.  And, to belabor a  point about definitions, I am not sure what "semi scale" means anyway.  That is right up there with "train hobby".  I believe the 15% figure pertains to the scale market which, by my definition anyway, means NMRA/NASG compliant wheels and track.  The scale guys might have to get creative to find wheels if necessary, but they are used to that.

Perhaps Lionel/AF can be persuaded to make sets of scale wheels if they are necessary.  Time will tell.

Cheers.......Ed L.

Is the NASG involved with these projects?  Is someone able to provide the specifications on the 'scale' wheels?

From the NASG website:

The NASG performs a wide range of activities in support of the S scale world. It sets standards for S scale and maintains lines of communication for S modelers everywhere. The NASG also works closely with manufacturers and potential manufacturers to help provide products marketable to its membership.

Ed,

If I understand this correctly, you mention that the 15% market is 'scale' with regards to NMRA standards, so how do these profiles compare to the other 'scale' group of people you mention that may have to get creative. 

I can't see how you can have more than one group of people who claim to be 'scale' yet work to differenent standards etc, hence a possible term like semi-scale where you use track and wheels to NMRA standards but use propriety loco's and rolling stock which has been upgraded with the said items and that 'scale' means people that have track,wheels, motive power and rolling stock that are either scratch built or modified out of the box to meet the same dimensions as the prototype, especially length, height and width.

To me it seems that those that operathe to NMRA wheel/track standards are only one step above being a hi-railer.

I believe the 15% figure pertains to the scale market which, by my definition anyway, means NMRA/NASG compliant wheels and track.  The scale guys might have to get creative to find wheels if necessary, but they are used to that.

Ed,

Since you seem to want to challenge everything I say regardless and since you seem to know Will, why not ask him? He was the source of all this information. The man told me that they had been tested on all track types when I asked him why Lionel decided to put scale wheels on with AF couplers. It is a possibility that he misspoke. We talked for 1.5 hours and I was very diligent in paying attention to the details of the conversation so I could share it here. Regardless of if it has been tested on EVERY track system he seemed to feel that the scale wheels would not be a problem for non-scale operators. That was the jest of what HE said. Not what I said.

I am not an AF guy, and since you are big on facts and not rumors I would suggest that since you don't know me that you may not want to speculate as to what perspective I am basing my comments on. My point was to share information with this group that I got straight from Will who is knowledgeable about this topic. In fact he told me that he sent Lionel scale wheel sets to compare. Why would you assume that their wheels aren't scale? They are listed as "scale". They have already provided scale wheels for their diesels, of which I have owned several, that run fantastically well on code 100 track. I didn't compare them to NMRA specs, but they sure look like a set of code 110 scale wheels to me. The much bigger issue will be for those folks that want to buy this car but are concerned with the scale wheels. I could care less if one "wonder wheel" actually runs on all track. If someone doesn't want the scale wheels, then swap them out for Hi-Rail. Big deal...

I am not setting myself up as an expert here. I am passing on information that I gathered for the good of the community. If anyone else would have attended the show and talked to Will I imagine he would have told them the same thing.

Are you so critical and argumentative about everything?

I get the feeling that you aren't going to believe anything about this product until you can get one, test it, and post results over on the SIG. That's certainly your prerogative, but why must you continually disrupt the flow of information on this group? whether you like it or not, this is how things work with Lionel and MTH. Word of mouth is the way a lot of this information flows. When someone as plugged-in as Will tells me of conversations he has with Matt Ashba and Andy Edelman I am inclined to believe him. Also, I can't think of one instance off of the top of my head where the product hasn't followed along with exactly what is in the catalog.

I don't know why Lionel chose to go this route, but they are indeed producing a hopper with scale wheels, an AF coupler that mounts to the truck on a bracket, and two holes drilled and tapped for Kadee couplers. At least that is what I saw at the show.

A simple thank you for sharing would suffice.

Ed,

I am going to have to vehemently disagree with your statement.

Quite frankly, it has never been done except in one or two rare instances where the visual appearance of the turnout was so bad that no scale guy would want to use it. 

 And I know you know this is not true.  I know of too many scalers that would also disagree with you statement because they use this 'visually bad' turnout.

The basic difficulty is that AF wheels are gauged much closer together than scale wheels.  The AF switches do not have guard rails and so the closer gauge is not an issue.

The issue with Flyer wheels is not the gauging, but rather the width of the flange when considering guard rail design.  The depth of the flange doesn’t help us either, but that is more at the frog.

May I suggest you watch this short series of videos?

http://www.tomsturnouts.com/video/VideoTTT.html

It could change your mind... 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

>> Is the NASG involved with these projects?

I have no knowledge of that and cannot comment.  You should probably ask that question to NASG or Lionel/AF.

>> Is someone able to provide the specifications on the 'scale' wheels?

The NMRA-affiliated S SIG has all the dimensions on their web site.  Click here:

http://sscale.org/s-scale-resources/standards/

I would be amazed if Lionel/AF is not already aware of these dimensions.  But that is conjecture.  I do not know for sure.

Cheers....Ed L.

Ed,

I was referring to the wheels on the Lionel hopper in the photo.  Does anyone know the dimensions?  Were they designed to match a specific criteria?  Anyone ask the Lionel reps at the show?

I was just curious....I plan to upgrade them to NWSL P64 wheelsets. 

I'm almost sorry I started this thread, but the same stuff would have probably bubbled in another thread eventually.

I think it's time to set this subject aside for a while. 

The cylindrical covered hoppers are hopefully on the water or sitting in a container on a dock somewhere and all the bluster isn't going to change the wheels on them.

When they arrive, I won't be able to tell you if the wheels meet NASG, NMRA, NEM or Silly Putty standards.  I will be able to do a visual of the wheels against SHS, AM and even some old Ace wheels and see if they run through my turnouts (code 100 Shinohora #6's and Old Pullman #5's) and take some pretty pictures.

I think the U33C's and SD70's have shown that Lionel knows how to make a functioning S Scale wheel.

Yeah, I'm frustrated that they're not here yet and am a bit puzzled about selling a car with Flyer couplers and scale wheels.  This is why I think it would behoove Lionel to send some warm bodies to some of the S events.

I'm pretty sure this debate wouldn't be happening if the car had Flyer wheels.  Most scale guys would probably then just resign themselves to replacing the trucks and be done with it or just not buy it.  With some complaining, of course...

Maybe Lionel will figure things out better by the next catalog, maybe not.  Attracting a "scale modeler" is somewhat new to Lionel.  They don't offer scale wheels, Kadee mountings or DCC compatibility to their O gauge customers.

This is the first of hopefully a series of non-traditional Gilbert-style cars that can be marketed to all the shades of gray of S. 

Let's wait until they get here.

Rusty

>> Ed, If I understand this correctly, you mention that the 15% market is 'scale' with regards to NMRA standards, so how do these profiles compare to the other 'scale' group of people you mention that may have to get creative. 

Terminology is the killer here.  Not to mention nomenclature and definitions.  In my dictionary, "scale" means compliant with NMRA/NASG specifications for both wheels and track.  No more.  No less.  Other people might have  a different definition of "scale" and it is up to them to explain what they mean using their definition.

In my miniature world, there is only one meaning of the word "scale".  There is no such a thing as an "other scale group" of scale folks.  Either your track and wheels conform to the NMRA/NASG specs or they don't.  Really pretty straightforward.  If things do not conform, then you do not have a scale layout.

With regard to the cylindrical hopper, my comment was that IF Lionel's "scale" wheels are not NMRA/NASG compliant, then the scale folks (all of them) will probably have to somehow find other wheels or maybe find another truck to use or some other solution.  Scale guys have been dealing with wheel issues for many years and have gotten used to the hassle.  It is not life threatening. 

At this point, we do not even know if there is a problem or not.  We do know that Will Holt reports the car runs through AF switches just fine.  That is very good news.  So far, Will has not run the car through scale track.  Thus, there is an unknown factor still out there.  As stated earlier, no one yet has found a way to make scale wheels and AF wheels both run through the same realistic looking turnout/switch.  Maybe Lionel/AF has really come up with an ingenious idea here.  Maybe not.  Dunno yet.

>> I can't see how you can have more than one group of people who claim to be 'scale' yet work to differenent standards etc,

The problem is that there is not a universal consistent meaning to the word "scale".  My definition is: compliant with NMRA/NASG specs.  If someone else claims to be a scale modeler and is not compliant, it is up to them to explain what "scale" means to them.  I would argue that being compliant with NMRA/NASG is the most common meaning of the word "scale" within the hobby of model railroading.

>> hence a possible term like semi-scale

If someone wants to call their layout "semi-scale", that is fine as long as they define what they mean by that word.  Without some definition, the word has little meaning.  There is also "fine scale" and "scaleplate" and a few other words that get tossed around.  I have no idea exactly what most of them mean except the quality of the model is somehow better than other models.

>> where you use track and wheels to NMRA standards

So far, that describes the typical S scale modeler.  No need for the word "semi-scale" at this point.

>> but use propriety loco's and rolling stock which has been upgraded with the said items

Can I plead ignorance here?  I do not understand what is meant by "said items".  If the wheels and track are compliant with NMRA specs, then it would be a scale model.  Using my definitions, of course. 

>> that 'scale' means people that have track,wheels, motive power and rolling stock that are either scratch built or modified out of the box to meet the same dimensions as the prototype, especially length, height and width.

If a model uses NMRA/NASG dimensions for wheels and track, it is a scale model in my dictionary.  If it is scratch built, modified, outta the box, etc. it makes no difference as long as the critical dimensions are compliant.  A scale model can be RTR, modified, scratchbuilt, beautiful, ugly, etc. and the only thing that counts is whether the track and wheels are compliant.  It makes no difference how it was constructed, where it was built, who made it, how it looks, etc.  If compliant, it will run on a scale layout.  If not compliant, it might run on a scale layout, but there are no guarantees.

>> To me it seems that those that operathe to NMRA wheel/track standards are only one step above being a hi-railer.

In general, I would sort of agree with you about that.  However, it depends on your definition of "high-railer".  Some folks might say anything that improves the appearance of off-the-shelf AF is considered high-rail.  If that definition is used, then merely adding balsa wood ties to classic ACG track would make a layout high-rail.  For that specific instance, I would argue that a scale layout is very much different -- a big step away.  On the other hand, some high-rail layouts have small(er) flanges, small(er) couplers, small(er) rail height, etc.  For those layouts, I would completely agree that being scale is only a small step away.

But that small step can be very important if a high-rail car will not run on a scale layout.  Or vice versa.  A fraction of an inch can make things inoperable at times.  So whether scale is a small step or a large step different from high-rail sort of depends on what kind of a high-rail layout is being discussed.

Gads.......this is getting complex.  Hope you can absorb all this.

Cheers.....Ed L.

And that's why you will be getting a bunch of rail from me when the MTH flex arrives Tom. I plan on using your turnouts and MTH flex for my new layout. The slight drop with scale wheels is a minor compromise to be able to run both scale and hi-rail wheels together IMHO. Tom, you have the best solution going. I think you should get more publicity. Those videos prove it can be done. I can't wait to try it out on my layout

Interestingly, MTH is an actual 155# PRR prototype rail. So the rail is scale ;-)

Ed, Since you seem to want to challenge everything I say

I only bring up things that strike me as incorrect or lacking a factual basis.  Other than that, I let things roll along freely.

>> since you seem to know Will, why not ask him?

I have already conversed with Will and posted his email message earlier.  Here it is again:

------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Ed; 

What ever you heard was not totally accurate.  At this point I have tested the cars on Gilbert AF track and American Model Track with Tom's Turnouts and Track work switches.  I have not yet had the time to check them on scale switches,

Will Holt

--------------------------------------------------------------------

>>The man told me that they had been tested on all track types

Obviously, I was not there at the time.  But Will's comments to me were different than what was posted here.  I am very skeptical that any scale wheel can run smoothly through BOTH AF and realistic-looking scale turnouts.  In S, using the words "all track types" should certainly include scale.

>> Regardless of if it has been tested on EVERY track system

Will readily states it has not been tested on scale track.  I accept that statement as a fact.

>> he seemed to feel that the scale wheels would not be a problem for non-scale operators.

Will did report that the wheels ran fine through AF track.  No problem there.

>> that was the jest of what HE said. Not what I said.

Your original message was:  "I was told by Will Holt of the NASG that this car with scale wheels was tested on all track types including original AF track and apparently it runs just fine with the scale wheels."

Will states that it was not tested on scale track.  My only complaint is that your original statement is incorrect.  Or, at least, is inconsistent with what Will tells me.

>> I am not an AF guy,

I do apologize if that offended you.  Please note I did not call you an AF guy, but I can understand how you could have perceived that.  I will be more careful in the future.

>> My point was to share information with this group that I got straight from Will

I applaud your motivation and intent.  No problem there.  I do think that Will's statement was distorted somewhat and that was the reason for my comment.  I do think we are both trying hard to bring accurate information to this group.

>> Why would you assume that their wheels aren't scale? They are listed as "scale".

First of all, I have not assumed the wheels are not scale.  I never said that.  I have stated that IF they are not scale (NMRA compliant) they will probably not work smoothly on scale (NMRA compliant) trackage.  At this point we do not know what they are exactly.  Yes, they look scale from a photo.  Lionel's definition of "scale" in the past has been a lot different from being compliant with NMRA/NASG specifications.  The word "scale" in Lionelese sometimes means a very realistic body, but with tinplate couplers and trucks.  At other times (SD70), the word scale does mean NMRA/NASG compliant.  What it means for the cylindrical hopper is not yet known exactly.

Secondly, I have yet to see any wheel work properly and smoothly on both AF switches and realistic scale turnouts.  Perhaps this will be a first, but it is too early to tell.  Merely labeling it "scale" in a catalog does not mean it will work as expected on NMRA scale track.  I hope it does, but the jury is still out.

>> I am passing on information that I gathered for the good of the community. If anyone else would have attended the show and talked to Will I imagine he would have told them the same thing.

I cannot comment on what Will said at the show since I was not there.  I can conclude that it will be a minor miracle if the new wheel runs smoothly though both an AF switch and a realistic scale turnout.  Call me a skeptic if you like.  But that is why I have some doubts.

Worst case, if we assume the wheels do not work on scale trackage, perhaps Lionel will make some conversion wheels.  It is not the end of the Earth.

>> Are you so critical and argumentative about everything?

I make these kinds of comments only when it comes to inaccurate statements and wild assumptions.  Other than that I am a kind and mild mannered guy.  And I do not engage in personal attacks. 

>> I get the feeling that you aren't going to believe anything about this product until you can get one, test it, and post results over on the SIG.

What is the basis for your feeling?  All I have done is to question the accuracy of your original post about something that, to me, seems impossible.  I believe what Will has said.  No problem there.  And I held an early the test shot in my hands a long time ago.  It is a beautiful body casting.  Right up there with the SD70. 

Sounds like you have a dislike for the S SIG.  Has the S SIG rubbed you the wrong way somehow?

>> why must you continually disrupt the flow of information on this group?

First of all, it is not continual.  It is only when inaccurate information or screwball opinions are presented.  And, it is not disruption since all the other messages are free to flow as normal.  I have not prevented anyone from posting any message they want.  So, it is not continual and it is not disruptive.  Any other complaints? 

>> Also, I can't think of one instance off of the top of my head where the product hasn't followed along with exactly what is in the catalog.

I never said Lionel/AF is not following the catalog.  Never said that and never implied it.  What I said is that the cylindrical hopper was not tested on scale track in spite of your claim it was tested on "all" track.   Please do not accuse me of things I have never done.  Rip me apart, if you like, for the things I have done.  That is OK.

>> I don't know why Lionel chose to go this route, but they are indeed producing a hopper with scale wheels, an AF coupler that mounts to the truck on a bracket, and two holes drilled and tapped for Kadee couplers. At least that is what I saw at the show.

I never claimed otherwise.  My only question has been if the Lionel/AF "scale" wheel will work on NMRA-scale track.  Or, in other words, is the Lionel/AF wheel compliant with NMRA/NASG specifications?  We do not know the answer to that yet. 

>> A simple thank you for sharing would suffice.

Thank you for sharing accurate information.  In the future, please try to be more careful about inaccurate information.  Lionel does not sell individual scale wheels and the hopper has not (yet) been tested on scale track.

Have a nice day......Ed L.

>> Ed, I was referring to the wheels on the Lionel hopper in the photo.  Does anyone know the dimensions?

I do not think anyone outside of Lionel/AF has measured them.  Lionel probably has a blueprint with dimensions. 

>> Were they designed to match a specific criteria?

I do not know.

>> Anyone ask the Lionel reps at the show?

That would have been a great question, but I tend to doubt it.  That is an assumption on my part.

>> I was just curious....I plan to upgrade them to NWSL P64 wheelsets. 

Let us know how that works out. 

Good luck....Ed L.

Ed,

As stated earlier, no one yet has found a way to make scale wheels and AF wheels both run through the same realistic looking turnout/switch.

 

Please engage eyes before making a judgement.

At this point I have tested the cars on Gilbert AF track and American Model Track with Tom's Turnouts and Track work switches.

What can I say?

In the future, please try to be more careful about inaccurate information.

I should hope so...

In my dictionary, "scale" means compliant with NMRA/NASG specifications for both wheels and track.

Does this statement include H0 and N?

From NMRA S -1.3:

HO code 100 rail is about code 138 (SHS profile) in S... that is Hi-rail.

N code 83 rail is more than code 172 is S ... That woud be considered 'Traditional'.  Then you add to that the 'pizza cutter' flanges and the lobster claw couplers (all NMRA compliant by the way)... N 'scale' can only be considered Hi-rail on the best of days and most of the time it is 'Traditional'.  So, much for that 15%.

Most likely, over the entire scope of model railroading, 15% being in 'scale' would be a gross exaggeration.  The number is probably more acturate for S then the industry as a whole.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Rusty

Thanks for that Rusty

I'm going to politely bow out of this discussion now.

I will address one last thing though:

"Sounds like you have a dislike for the S SIG.  Has the S SIG rubbed you the wrong way somehow?"

>I have no problem with the S SIG. As a matter of fact I donated money to the SIG to further it's work even though I knew I might wind up on the Hi-rail side of the fence. I think the S SIG provides a valuable service.

Great videos,Tom. Your products look like the very things I need.

Mark in Oregon