Which Electrics Pulled Passenger Trains from Croton-Harmon Station into NYC?

P-Motor was the class designation given by the New York Central a fleet of 22 ALCO-GE electric passenger locomotives. The P Motors were not only more powerful than previous New York Central electric, but also a more advanced design using the highly successful 2-C+C-2 wheel arrangement found on the later PRR GG1 and New Haven EP-3 classes as well as nose suspended traction motors. Although originally built and owned by a consortium of railroads involved in the large scale Cleveland Union Terminal project, the New York Central was the majority owner and later acquired them outright in the 1950s when the Terminal's electrification scheme was scrapped in favor of diesels.^[1] Rebuilt and re-classified as P-2, the 21 remaining engines were sent to the New York electrified zone to supplement the aging fleet of T-Motors that had been purchased starting in 1913.^[1] There they played out the remainder of their careers pulling the Central's premier passenger trains.

Hi Don, thanks. Would you think that this means that, say in 1942, it would have been S1's and T1's that were used, with P2's starting in the 1950's?

Yes

ALCO and GE co-built T-Motors from 1913 to 1926 to take over the main line passenger duties from the earlier and somewhat less capable S-Motor classes. Like the rest of the eastern electric fleet T-Motors were only used on the third rail territory from Grand Central Terminal on to the Hudson and Harlem Divisions. Compared to the S-Motors the T's had more power and with no unpowered wheels all of the locomotive's weight could be transferred into tractive effort. The T-Motors were also faster than the S-Motors and hauled everything from commuter trains to the 20th Century Limited. The first major blow to the fleet of T's was when the Cleveland Union Terminal electrified operations shut down in the mid 1950s, freeing up the fleet of 22 P-Motors for conversion to 3rd rail power. Although reduced to secondary duties 6 T's survived into the Penn Central era when they were finally replaced by New York, New Haven and Hartford FL9s on the Penn Central roster

Don is correct, and I’ll add S1’s & S2’sremained in service to and from Harmon through out their careers....it wouldn’t be uncommon to see a pair of S1’s at the head of a named train to get it to Harmon as quickly as possible for the switch to steam...Harmon was the major electric shops for this area, with a small emphasis on steam service...all electrics into and out of NYC were 3rd rail service...so for what you’re asking, pretty much every flavor of electrics went into and out of GCT ...S, T’s and later P’s.....

Pat

You are correct David. P-2a #222 did not arrive in Harmon until 1951, with the remainder of the P-2b class (#223-#241) arriving in 1955.     Earl G.

David, for the era you want to model, you can run the gambit of electrics ....S’s were first on the job, bumped by T’s and then the T’s got bumped when the P’s arrived from the CUT....the S’s & T’s although their numbers dwindled, never really went away, they were assigned to lessor trains, shuffling empty coaches around, and commuter duties...as some of the P’s did, some S’s survived into Penn Central...finally being cut from the roster when passenger traffic dwindled down.......

Pat

"I know there have been several Lionel and MTH models of NYC electrics made recently, (S-2, P-2, etc) but it isn't clear to me whether these engines worked on this part of the Central or not." 

The Central did not have the large electric service that the PRR had. There was some around Detroit, the CUT service, and the service into Manhattan, and within Manhattan.

Did I miss any?

The elegant P-1/P-2 is my favorite electric of all, any road. Kind of the "Hudson" of electrics (even though, in steam wheel arrangement and naming conventions, it would have been a "Challenger"...)  

Wow, great questions and terrific answers.  I don't know anything about the Eastern RR's but it is great to listen and read about them from guys who are very knowledgeable about the NYC and the Pennsy.  Thanks for enlightening a Western Roads (mainly SP) fan.  I really like the Pennsylvania RR's steam, they had some really good locomotives.

Great Topic.

So, were the R motors only used for freight or did they get called on for passenger service also?

Pete

@Norton posted:

So, were the R motors only used for freight or did they get called on for passenger service also?

Pete

R-Motor was the class designation given by the New York Central one prototype and a later fleet of 42 ALCO-GE built electric freight locomotives for use in the New York Electrified Zone. In conjunction with the P Motors, the Rs marked the second generation of electric locomotives built for the New York Central. Also like the P Motors they used advanced nose suspended traction motors and the R-2s were some of the first North American locomotives to make use of the C-C wheel arrangement, which later became the standard for diesel electric road freight.

R motors were stuck over on the west side line, hauling freight....they never got the limelight...😉....poor *******s...

Pat

@Norton posted:

So, were the R motors only used for freight or did they get called on for passenger service also?

Pete

Although built principally for freight service as indicated above, the R-2 motors did cover passenger assignments on an infrequent basis. Not being equipped with boilers, they were operated in tandem with steam heat trailers on such occasions.

Bob 

Thanks for all of the input guys! In looking at the various offerings, obviously Lionel offered the S-2 electric in 2017, which from some reviews I've seen, wasn't typically used on the Croton-Harmon line but rather more frequently on the Harlem line. Perhaps the S's were used to Croton-Harmon in the early days, but it seems like they were quickly replaced by T-motors.

So, for my modeling years (1940-1959), I am wondering about trying to locate a 3rd Rail T-3A. Those seem like they were used throughout that whole period. The MTH P2's really came along from 1955-ish on from what I can figure, so they would be somewhat limited in terms of what they would look best running alongside with on the layout.

Anyone have any further input or ideas about the best choice? I like the swinging bell of the Lionel, I like the period-correctness of the T2 and I like the overall looks and massive size of the P2.

Hmmm....

Try Beth at Public Delivery Track. She had some T-3s a few weeks ago.

Pete

My last question is about paint schemes. Anyone know when the T motors and P motors were painted in the Lightning Stripe scheme? I would imagine they were in the basic black scheme initially. Thanks guys!

David O.

My grandfather was a mechanic for the Central in the electric car shops at Harmon,....yes, it’s a fact they had issues with the S class, even some tragic ones....these issues were figured out, and the S2’s were much safer.....underpowered, yes, but safer...T’s replaced  a lot of chores that the S motors did, and S’s got relegated to lessor jobs, but nonetheless, they were still called upon from time to time, to run trains out of the city to Harmon....this is fact, I have video of an S2 pulling the Century in the mid to late 50’s out of GCT ....consist included some ATSF sleepers.....there was no “set” electric that only did these shuffling jobs as grandad called them back and forth from Harmon to the city....up until the reliable and powerful P’s showed up, you’d see a host of T’s or S’s doing the job,...all depended on what was available to be dispatched to a job....if the T’s were all either working, or inshopped for repairs, they’d toss a S out on the line in a heartbeat...as mentioned above, even R’s would come out of the west side line to be called up for passenger duty when traffic was heavy ....ie; multiple segments.....but R’s had to coupled to a steam wagon, as theses had no provision to make needed steam for passenger duties..

as far as what’s available on the market, obviously Lionel’s S’s are out there in good numbers, as well as MTH’s P motors in a couple different numbers for both manufacturers......3rd rails T motor is an elusive creature that has even evaded me, .....and I model Harmon....

hope this clears things up, everybody that has posted suggestions, history, and ideas have all been spot on, so you’ve got a good wealth of info right on this thread....I currently run both S’s and P’s as I don’t have a T of my own at the moment, but I’m on the hunt....2 rail brass models are even harder to come by....the most accurate P I’ve seen was done by Overland for the CUT but it’s set up for overhead service, not 3rd rail, so to make it run along the Hudson, you’d have to convert it to 3rd rail operation just like they did at the Harmon car shops....

Pat

Just FYI, I looked at the Public Delivery Track website, and there are in fact 2 T-3's by Sunset/3rd Rail listed in both black and lightning stripe schemes. HOWEVER, they're both 2-rail, so they won't work for me. But if you're a 2-rail guy, maybe you're in luck!

David O.

David, another good suggestion, join the NYCHS ....a lot of good information about the NYC from that group....membership isn’t bad at all, considering the resources at your fingertips.....very good article about the NYC’s lightning stripe schemes in their resource library....enjoy it!...I find myself there a lot....

Pat

Those venerable S electrics were memorable locos. In 1958 at age 16, I worked in a cigar and cigarette stand located in the then-named Lincoln Building at 60 East 42nd Street directly across from GCT. There was an underground tunnel connecting the building with GCT. On my lunch break, on more than one occasion, I would take that tunnel into the terminal to have a quick hot dog and orange drink at Nedick's. Then, time permiting, I would walk up to the inbound tracks and would occasionaly spot an S class electric close up to the bumper post after having brought an NYC passenger train into the terminal. That black engine with those small tunnel pantographs was so cool to see close up! I knew those engines were third rail powered, but at that time did not know what the pantographs were used for. Always was a fan of those S motors!

You should check with Sunset. They sometimes have a few locos left over. They also have returned locos they recondition and resell. 

@David Ogletree posted:

Just FYI, I looked at the Public Delivery Track website, and there are in fact 2 T-3's by Sunset/3rd Rail listed in both black and lightning stripe schemes. HOWEVER, they're both 2-rail, so they won't work for me. But if you're a 2-rail guy, maybe you're in luck!

David O.

 

We can’t have any 3rd rail T motors in 3 rail....Pete’s got them all....😉

Pat

I once had a couple of the Lionel O gauge scale S motors, but alas, my only present model is my MTH 408E. This SG tinplate version naturally took some serious liberties with the design of the S class motor, but I still love it!

@dk122trains posted:

Yes

ALCO and GE co-built T-Motors from 1913 to 1926 to take over the main line passenger duties from the earlier and somewhat less capable S-Motor classes. Like the rest of the eastern electric fleet T-Motors were only used on the third rail territory from Grand Central Terminal on to the Hudson and Harlem Divisions. Compared to the S-Motors the T's had more power and with no unpowered wheels all of the locomotive's weight could be transferred into tractive effort. The T-Motors were also faster than the S-Motors and hauled everything from commuter trains to the 20th Century Limited. The first major blow to the fleet of T's was when the Cleveland Union Terminal electrified operations shut down in the mid 1950s, freeing up the fleet of 22 P-Motors for conversion to 3rd rail power. Although reduced to secondary duties 6 T's survived into the Penn Central era when they were finally replaced by New York, New Haven and Hartford FL9s on the Penn Central roster

Don, I do not think ALCO was involved in building GE electric locomotives, at least not in the era that the NYC locos were built. General Electric moved locomotive manufacturing from Schenectady, NY to Erie, PA about 1911. I believe that GE built about 100,000 locomotives in Erie. During the period that GE was building locos for the NYC, ALCO Schenectady was building steam locos and would had little to do with GE. When ALCO did build Diesel locomotives they used GE electrical equipment and used the GE name.  But these carried ALCO series numbers and were built at the ALCO plant in Schenectady.  At this time GE Schenectady was building power plant and turbine products. GE built a line of industrial and small railroad diesel locomotives for about 30 years starting about 1940.  The best known in this line is the 44 tonner. These were built at Erie and carried GE serial numbers. They had nothing to do with ALCO.  GE finally gave up on ALCO, in the 1960s I think, and built a plant to manufacture their own Diesel engines. After this time all US GE locomotives were built at Erie until very recently. 

@David Johnston posted:

Don, I do not think ALCO was involved in building GE electric locomotives, at least not in the era that the NYC locos were built. General Electric moved locomotive manufacturing from Schenectady, NY to Erie, PA about 1911. I believe that GE built about 100,000 locomotives in Erie. During the period that GE was building locos for the NYC, ALCO Schenectady was building steam locos and would had little to do with GE. When ALCO did build Diesel locomotives they used GE electrical equipment and used the GE name.  But these carried ALCO series numbers and were built at the ALCO plant in Schenectady.  At this time GE Schenectady was building power plant and turbine products. GE built a line of industrial and small railroad diesel locomotives for about 30 years starting about 1940.  The best known in this line is the 44 tonner. These were built at Erie and carried GE serial numbers. They had nothing to do with ALCO.  GE finally gave up on ALCO, in the 1960s I think, and built a plant to manufacture their own Diesel engines. After this time all US GE locomotives were built at Erie until very recently. 

David, S’s T’s P’s and even R’s we’re all built by a joint venture with ALco and GE ....not sure where you’re going with this in relation to this thread ....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

We can’t have any 3rd rail T motors in 3 rail....Pete’s got them all....😉

Pat

Not really. One black one is all. They are sweet runners though. Good luck David O in your quest. They show up on eBay every once in a while.

Pete

I worked for the NYC between 1959 and 1968 and was very familiar with their electric power both fro working there and living on the Harlem line from childhood.  Here's what I remember just sitting here.

The S motors were not designed as a road engine and had no steam heaters.  When used on through trains to beyond Harmon, they had to pull a steam generator car.  The T motors built between 1913 and 1926 were intended to be the only passenger electric motive power, but it seems there were not quite enough of them to handle the peak traffic.  I remember from around 1945 to the early 50's occasionally seeing a funny looking car behind the engine with steam coming out the top and wondering what that was.  That was before I had learned anything about electric locomotives other than the GG1's in the Lionel catalog.

I recall in the 40's and 50's occasionally seeing S motors and less often R motors on passenger trains, but always with a steam generator car.

For the most part, the S motors worked as switch engines at GCT and Mott Haven and for deadhead equipment moves between GCT and MO.  After the arrival of the P motors in 1955, there was no longer any need for S or R motors to pull passenger trains and the steam generator cars were gone.

R motors were use in passenger service on the west side freight line but only for handling mail between the 30th Street postal annex and Harmon.  That was mostly parcel post traffic.  There were several M&E trains in the timetable between 72nd St and Harmon.  At Harmon the cars were added to westbound passenger trains.  IF you were at Harmon in the evening, you could watch an R motor switching those cars.

Another interesting note on the P motors if you model GCT and would like to use one as a switch engine.  When Mott Haven was closed and the dining and sleeping car service facility was moved to the GCT lower level, the S motors couldn't pull a long train up the ramp to the upper level.  Two  P motors were equipped with footboards to be available for switching those trains.