It's a real squeeze to fit fan driven smoke into the TMCC Camelback, with the ERR upgrade, most of the electronics is in the tender and it gives you more room for the better smoke.  Obviously, you'll have to buy the ERR stuff for the upgrade, that adds to the cost.

Finally, if you want four-chuffs/rev and chuffing smoke, you will need to add those features. Obviously, I recommend my Chuff-Generator and Super-Chuffer II to complete the upgrade.

May I ask what is the difference between ERR, TMCC?

@Lionel8 posted:

May I ask what is the difference between ERR, TMCC?

None, the ERR TMCC products are TMCC.  ERR is just producing TMCC components under license from Lionel.

I have the TMCC version.   Great runner

@Lionel8 posted:

May I ask what is the difference between ERR, TMCC?

If you are considering the ERR Cruise Commander, about 68 more speed steps, for more precise control :-)  Also, probably a smaller footprint for the circuit boards.

I believe the original Lionel camelbacks, TMCC or not,  had piston smoke units that gives you one puff per revolution.  Without ERR cruise commander, they tend to run slow or fast with little in-between. The early TMCC versions did have a unique and nice sound. The Lionchief versions are 2 chuffs/puffs per revolution with fan driven smoke, the sounds are generic Lionchief which are nice at low speeds but grating to me at full speed. The Legacy is superior and worth consideration when you consider costs of upgrades.

Putting a Cruise Commander M into the original TMCC Camelback is not for the faint of heart, you have to do some surgery to get it to fit.  The 1/8" length difference and the different locations of the connectors conspire to make it a much bigger PITA than most CC-M installations.  I've put them into five or six TMCC Camelbacks, never as easy as you'd expect.

I bought one of those engines around 2000 when they came out. It had an issue out of the box and had to be sent back to Lionel which Lionel repaired. The slow speed performance wasn't that great but other than that I liked the engine. It had a very nice whistle. It isn't labeled as scale but I measured it and it is actually pretty close to scale. The detail level of course isn't what we have today but I still think it is a nice engine. My only advice is if possible see how it runs before you buy it.

I think I have to agree with Phil on the Legacy version.  I have the Legacy Reading Camelback, and it's a really nice runner.  It also has selectable multiple whistles & bells, programmable class light colors, whistle steam, etc.

It'll cost you around $250 (if you do the work yourself, more if you have it done) to convert the conventional one to TMCC. If you do, it'll have cruise control, which the original TMCC model didn't, and more speed steps. The newer legacy model will give you the most bang for your buck, but it'll take a LOT more bucks to get it (figure paying about $20 under the $649 list price at retail. Of course, YMMV).

I’m going to guess as far as pricing. $250 and $350 for the 2 you are looking at. If you run the TMCC just as it is. I’d go for that one. If you want the engine to do more you can add John’s and ERR products to either one.  If John says it’s not for the faint of heart. I’d bank on his words. It would now have a lot more features. But your now getting close to the price of a new Legacy. Probably well over if you send the engine out for someone to upgrade. The new Legacy  Camelback engines aren’t plentiful. But they are out there.  I checked Trainworld and they have a couple for under $700.

Many do upgrades using the current products available and get close to Legacy performance. All the upgrades as far as price. Are a one size fits all. A high end Legacy Steamer and it’s older TMCC twin there is sometimes a huge price difference and it’s worth it. When you start getting to the lower priced steamers. That difference really shrinks compared to a new Legacy version. Yet the upgrade costs the same.

Dave is correct.  I actually did upgrade a conventional A-5 with the works, Cruise Commander, Railsounds Commander, fan driven smoke, Super-Chuffer, and Chuff-Generator.  If you were to contract me to do that full upgrade plus buy the conventional A-5 for say $125-150, you'd easily be at or exceeding the price of the Legacy Camelback.

Here's my full command upgrade.

Wow, it's funny how a dead topic can get revived over one question. So I ended up getting the (6-18099) Conventional Lionel SP 2282 Camelback (Picture). Right around the time I purchased the camelback, wouldn't you know it, Lionel came out with the Legacy version of the Camelback. I have been looking at the way gunrunnerjohn suggested and have been sitting on it for some time, distracted with other projects.

I got to wondering, would it now be possible to convert this conventional Camelback to Legacy? Or would it would be a better option to purchase a legacy Camelback and transfer the shells to the newer engine? I know that this is crazy but what isn't in this hobby. Other than the hole in the chassis for the whistle, the casting for the engine and the shell for the tender should still be the same, yes?

Why do I care about all this? I like oddball motive power, the Southern Pacific was good for that. They would acquire smaller railroads, along with their equipment and end up with one off's. Like the only Camelback in their roster, when they merged with the Sonora Railroad out of Mexico.

Real life SP camelback

Actually, I wouldn't assume the shells will match, but they may be close.  I believe at least the whistle smoke unit mounts in the shell, so there are more differences than you might expect.  Also, the handrails on the boiler are the antenna, the conventional model likely doesn't have them insulated.  I'm guessing it would be easier to get the lettering and headlight housing changed on the Legacy locomotive and then swap tender shells.

I just remembered that I had to ask. Is the Camelback the same size as the typical Baby Hudson's, in-between, or closer in size to the Scale Hudson's? The reason that I asked is to see which rolling stock is the better to match the engine because I also have O27.

Thank you for all the members' input and experience on the Camelback. All of the replies were interesting, and I learned a lot.

@Lionel8 posted:

I just remembered that I had to ask. Is the Camelback the same size as the typical Baby Hudson's, in-between, or closer in size to the Scale Hudson's? The reason that I asked is to see which rolling stock is the better to match the engine because I also have O27.

While the length may or may not be shorter, the bulk (width and height) are scale size which may dwarf 027 type rolling stock.

The Camelback is a scale sized locomotive, it's probably closest in size to the the scale Atlantic or Lionel's H10.  It's about half an inch shorter than either of those, but the same height.

I looked on YouTube to see a Lionel Camelback in operation. It was a Strasburg engine, each chuff was a quarter turn of the wheels, and I was impressed.

I also checked out the Lionel Legacy Mikado, and each chuff appears as three when the wheels turn. Is this correct?

@Lionel8 posted:

I also checked out the Lionel Legacy Mikado, and each chuff appears as three when the wheels turn. Is this correct?

The Legacy Camelback, as well as most other not-articulated Legacy steamers, should have 4-chuff/rev.

I don't understand the comment "each chuff appears as three", what does that mean?

Thanks for helping. As you said The Camelback has four chuffs / rev. And maybe you can provide clarity about Lionel's Mikado. I watched a YouTube and I don't know if I'm seeing correctly but as the wheels moved they appeared as three chuffs / rev. Or is the chuff sound out of sync with the driver hitting the 1/4 / rev mark? Can you shed any light if Lionel upgraded the Mikado since this video was made?  The engine moves at the 24:00 mark. Here is the link  https://tinyurl.com/4nacy6ra

The Lionchief Plus has 2 chuff/rev, but they don't always get the timing right.  That one does seem to have closer to 3 chuffs/rev.  The LC+ 2.0 stuff I have does 4 chuff/rev and is spot on.  I don't own any LC or LC+ stuff anymore.

Thank you for looking at and confirming the video. And your experience is exciting that your LC+ 2.0 engine works with four chuff/rev. Good to know.

Do you recall a Lionel engine mid entry level ( I can't remember) that had the swinging bell and the engine was LC, LC + or Legacy?

The obvious one was the H10 from the 2018 Catalog, it had a swinging bell and whistle steam, MSRP was $749.99.

Pennsylvania LEGACY H-10 #1288

Hi John,
Thank you for sharing the information and link to the Lionel catalog page showing the picture of the engine and its details in their 2018 catalog. Why does Lionel paint their steam engines with a greenish tinge, as seen in this picture? Because I remember in previous years all steamers were black.

A standard PRR color is Brunswick Green, which is basically black with a little bit of green in it.  Many steamers like the T1 Duplex were painted that color.

Thank you for your kind reply. I was not aware of Brunswick Green. An LIRR #39 G5 engine was in a local county park for many years. With funds available, the plan is to restore the engine in Strasburg, PA. I always remembered the engine as black. And I'm curious if the engine was originally The Brunswick scheme and later painted black.

Another affordable Camelback model, if you can find one, is the LionChief Plus Erie Camelback. It has great detail, comparable to a Legacy, for about $400, which is about half the price of a Legacy. IMO, the sounds, smoke, electrocoupler and speed control with the remote unit are just fine:

Arnold

@Lionel8 posted:

Thank you for your kind reply. I was not aware of Brunswick Green. An LIRR #39 G5 engine was in a local county park for many years. With funds available, the plan is to restore the engine in Strasburg, PA. I always remembered the engine as black. And I'm curious if the engine was originally The Brunswick scheme and later painted black.

Not every PRR steamer is Brunswick Green, just some of them.  As far as LIRR, no doubt that one was black as most road name steamers are.

John, are Lionel's engines with the Pennsylvania lettering on the tender in the Brunswick scheme accurate to the era, or should it be black? So again, thank you, and I appreciate all the details you provide.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure if they should be Brunswick Green or black without researching it.  That's probably a question for some of the rivet counters.

@Lionel8 posted:

Thank you for your kind reply. I was not aware of Brunswick Green. An LIRR #39 G5 engine was in a local county park for many years. With funds available, the plan is to restore the engine in Strasburg, PA. I always remembered the engine as black. And I'm curious if the engine was originally The Brunswick scheme and later painted black.

The LIRR G-5s was in Salisbury Park in East Meadow, Long Island, NY - later Nassau County Eisenhower Park during the 1950s. It was black, as were all 31 LIRR G-5s steamers that were in service from 1927 to 1955. This MTH Premier model is LIRR #21.

MELGAR

This is my Long Island Rail Road 4-6-0 ten-wheeler camelback #18 (Lionel Legacy SKU:2131420 - MSRP $649.99). A very nice model but it has no sound volume adjustment under conventional control. In my opinion, the chugging sounds are not loud enough.

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

This is my Long Island Rail Road 4-6-0 ten-wheeler camelback #18 (Lionel Legacy SKU:2131420 - MSRP $649.99). A very nice model but it has no sound volume adjustment under conventional control. In my opinion, the chugging sounds are not loud enough.

MELGAR

Something wrong with your sound settings.  Here's the 2131440 Reading Camelback, obviously from the same batch.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Something wrong with your sound settings.  Here's the 2131440 Reading Camelback, obviously from the same batch.

John,

Is your video running under Legacy? Mine is running conventionally - with no potentiometer to adjust the volume.

MELGAR

I tried it in conventional mode, it is quite a bit softer, never tried that before.

These are nice little engines. I have the Legacy Reading version. As much as I like it, I hope Lionel recognized the superior tooling of the MTH Premier version and grabbed it from them for later. It probably isn't different enough for them to have considered it, but one can hope.

Removing the volume control on all the new Legacy and LC+ 2.0 was a bad move IMO.  We'll keep hearing stories like this one.

Can the volume and/or the chuff rate be adjusted in the LionChief bluetooth app, or with the CAB-2?  I have one with four chuffs that sounds like a machine gun at anything above medium speed.  It's kind of jumpy too, increasing the momentum (if the loco remembers the momentum setting in conventional mode) would "tame" it a bit.  (I tried downloading the Camelback manual from the lionelsupport website, but I get a "document not found" error.)  Thanks.

I believe the LC BT app can adjust all the individual volumes and they stick for conventional use.