david1 posted:After reading all responses I have come to the conclusion that most people just don't care.
I love history and architecture but so few people know our history or care it is pathetic.
I'm afraid Dave is right. Railroads are simply a backdrop in life today and occasionally an inconvenience at crossings.
Oh Well. We like them and that is enough I think.
Mmmmm . . .
A Canadian here . . . but with very close ties to the US. A widower. Wife was an American. A US Civil War history fanatic since The Centennial in the 60s. No idea why. Something that just happened. Reading a book on the CW even this very day!
Now . . . that $10 bill sent me chasing after my wallet! Well, I'll be darned! There it is! The Canadian! I would never have even noticed had it not been pointed out!
But, it's not MY CANADIAN!!!! Not by a long shot! First time I saw The Canadian was in 1954. She was pulling into Montreal West with an E8A in Beaver Crest livery at the point! (No. 1800) That modern thing'a'ma'jig on that bill? No idea what that thing even is. Some VIA monstrosity?
If Canada really cared a fig for her RR history, CP2816 would not be dying her second death!
Ok, the average schmo probably couldn't give a fig about railroads and their history, but there is an excellent reason for studying history: so we don't make the same stupid, destructive errors over and over. An educated society stands a much better chance of surviving, longer term.
Because in many places the railroad tracks are 5 miles away.
In some places the trains run mostly between Sunset and Sunrise.
The freight trains have no trackside industries in the area that are viewable by the public.
Andrew
I suspect part of it may be simple statistics. In the late 1940's, US railroads employed roughly 1.5 million people or about 1% of the population. In the last year I can quickly find the number - 2010 - railroads employed only 235,000 people or less than .00075 of the US population of about 315,000,000. In short, you were far more likely to either know or be related to a railroad worker in the immediate postwar time period than today. Throw in the importance of both freight and passenger railroading in terms of impact on day to day life and it isn't surprising people were more aware of railroads 50 or 60 years ago.
That aside; I have for sometime felt that people with an interest in railroads tend to have an interest in history and vice versa. Once you get outside that demographic though, most people consider history to be boring or largely irrelevant to their electronic lives; an attitude I find to be very shortsighted.
Curt
Many younger people have no sense of history and are not interested. Those in the antiques business should be more concerned. I have several friends in the business and the younger people have no interest in antiques, most prefer Crate & Barrell and IKEA. So it is the same across many different situations and businesses. Just a sign of the times.
mark s posted:Dan P: read recently that the State of Texas school system is installing history books that describe American slaves as "happy", because they had free housing, meals, and secure lifetime employment ! And, of course, the fringe benefit of regular whippings.
Are you kidding ?!?!?!?!?! What are we coming to ?
Maybe I am being too anal, but when watching documentaries on the History channel and even on Public Television, and seeing re-enactments of historical events, the re-enactment is not noted as such. Younger viewers could actually believe that filming was around in colonial times.
Ron H posted:david1 posted:After reading all responses I have come to the conclusion that most people just don't care.
I love history and architecture but so few people know our history or care it is pathetic.
I'm afraid Dave is right. Railroads are simply a backdrop in life today and occasionally an inconvenience at crossings.
Oh Well. We like them and that is enough I think.
I bothers me that most people don't give a second thought to architecture. They don't realize that there is a background to all architecture, whether classic or modern. Buildings don't just appear without thought as to their function or design. Well, most buildings that is.....LOL
Architecture is an art, and it seems most people don't give either the credit they deserve, both in acknowledgment and in funding. Many will think nothing of spending huge amounts of money on spectator sports, yet will poo poo that arts being an important part of their children curriculum.
I think there are a lot of great responses here. Keep in mind from the beginning I said I was just thinking about this. I was not making a definitive statement. Some keep coming back around to train fans...yes lots of people love trains..and even some who aren't railfans like them casually..especially when kids want to pull over and watch a train. But the average person walking in say a mall or something in the USA. No clue about history...trains..etc....probably don't even know who the president was before Reagan.
This concern can also go to photography. Think of all the strange looks we get taking photographs of trains..even people who are shocked when you tell them what you are doing. I get it, some people aren't into trains...but its the larger lack of understanding I don't get. How can people not see the value of photographing every day life, engineering feats, interesting aspects of daily existence. Who wouldn't enjoy full photos over everything in our past thats not staged. I don't care for planes but I can totally appreciate someone hanging out at the airport taking photos of special jets etc.
If Bradford is selling a dozen Royal Scotsman programs in UK and even in the USA that must mean there is a market. They are a smart company and those products cost hundreds of thousands to develop and market. This I know...I love collectibles and have made some good contacts in the industry. I just like things that are cool...I don't care about resale etc...same with trains.
BTW the Canadian $10 bill may exchange at a certain rate but collectors will always pay a good premium for crisp currency. Go to the bank...get a stack of crisp $50's and sell them on Ebay. They will go for at least $75 each.
Matt Kirsch posted:Ace posted:Why does the American public have a lack of interest for US Railroad history...unlike other countries...
I don't think it's accurate to make sweeping generalizations like that.
Just because you, and a few people you know, have an interest in US railroad history does not mean that EVERYONE does. You do yourself and others a great disservice thinking that way.
Pay closer attention the next time you are "geeking out" about trains in the presence of people outside this forum and/or your model railroad club. You'll see their eyes rolling into the backs of their heads, the looks on their faces saying, "Oh God, there he goes again."
The reality is that most people don't care. Trains are a nuisance to them. Trains delay them from getting where they want/need to go.
Again this isn't about being a railfan. But a general appreciation. I dont care about planes but still appreciate and have a basic understanding. Its almost like the masses think you are wierd or nerdy for doing anything outside the mass consensus....I guess they can be called sheeples. Its like "I am a guy...for fun I must like sports..." anything less is weird and frowned upon.
Kids lack of understanding American History I blame on Howard Zinn's textbook: "A People's American History". Kids usually know when they're being sold a load of revisionist crap. And they also know better than to fight it in the classroom. So they keep quiet, and silently come to hate or mistrust American History.
Jon 
DoubleDAZ posted:Unlike Europe and other countries, the US has a severe lack of access and passenger routes, not to mention the cost and schedules. To go from here to San Diego only costs $260, but takes 13 hours plus a bus ride to Tucson and a transfer in LA. Why would I want to do that though when I can drive in less than 6 hours and use less that 10 gallons of gas in our Prius? And not have to rent a car
If I can't readily jump on a train to go somewhere, why would I have but a passing interest in the history of the railroads? You can go almost anywhere in Europe on a train. We abandoned the trains when the interstate system was built and they've all but abandoned us since. And once you get past the Rockefellers, Carnegies, etc., there's really not all the much exciting about railroad history, unless you like boardroom shenanigans and government mismanagement.
Yea and this is why europe is so far ahead.When it comes to passenger trains.So the railroads went freight big time.There are people who wished we had kept our passenger trains.
El Classico posted:Definitely. What's even more sad is that down here, as a high schooler, I am in essence the local historian, and have landed in trouble before for correcting teachers on THEIR history, from both the state universities and the local high schools (research led them to see I had it right, even if it wasn't the "politically correct" answer).
Man, I also got in trouble for that very same thing when I was in school. I corrected a teacher once when discussing the War of Northern Aggression that ours (Tallahassee) was the only Confederate capitol east of the Mississippi that wasn't in Union hands at the end of the war, which was opposite of what she'd said that all were in yankee hands before the war ended. I also pointed out that Lee surrendering the Army of Northern Virginia didn't officially end the war for the CSA and that there were battles after Lee's surrender in VA. When I mentioned that Lincoln really didn't care about slaves and used them as political pressure in 1863 (when the war wasn't going well for the Union) against British/French influence favoring the Confederacy and a pool of recruits to win the war, the teacher went bonkers.
Got hoisted to the vice principal, who agreed I had a point. "The problem here," I never forgot him telling me, "is that you ARE correct, but these teachers have to teach certain things, and they often teach more than one subject, so they can't know as much as someone like you who reads a lot."
I just stood there and gave him a "Are you flipping kidding me?" look. Mom wasn't that happy when I got home when I told her what I'd been told.
But as for RR history, schools have never, in my opinion, put much emphasis on history at all, of any kind. And Americans generally don't care much about history unless it's 'cool.'
If most people can't name one person who walked on the Moon (whereas I can name them all and have spoken to more than one of them personally), can you be surprised they don't care about trains history?
Back in the 1950's, it seemed like the country was interested in its history, with western movies and TV westerns carried into playsets and the western themed trains from Marx, Flyer and Lionel. I had high school history courses from a teacher many avoided because she was known to be strict, and think I gained a respect for it, and for the phrase, "Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it". I am interested in a lot of facets of history, from drives through the Gettysburg battlefield during every York week (but am not a Civil War buff) to climbing to ghost towns , abandoned mines, and driving and walking along abandoned RR roadbeds. I have also driven around and explored as many castles and fortresses in GB, France, and Germany as time would allow (which was a drop in the bucket) , and such sites as Rothenburg ob der Tauber, and Mad King Ludwigs's castles: Neuschwanstein, Hohenschwangau, and Schloss Linderhof. (these last are part of the history of a minor Baravian king, and a spelling as well as history lesson
) In those 1950's the model magazines were full of historical railroading, teakettle locomotives on short lines (much in HO, of course), and the structure kits available were of historical, often western themed, buildings. Those magazines and that history education gave me an interest in a wide range of historical subjects and antiques. What is described as taught history above, "politically correct", (whose politics...North Korea?), sounds like Big Brother and "1984". Still I wonder, if no one has an interest in history but myself, why can't I buy all the old trains, cars, and any other antiques I might develop an interest in dirt cheap?
Lee:
You make a valid point that schools have never put that much emphasis on teaching history. I know my love of it comes from my dad. He had a very real interest in history - particularly the Civil War - and passed that along to me.
Each year when I was growing up, he and I would borrow books from the library concerning a particular battle or campaign.
After school was out in early June, just the two of us would drive to that battlefield or area and spend several days walking the field and discussing the positions and movement of troops, visiting the museum associated with the battlefield and what have you. I still remember them as very special times with my dad.
My middle son has an interest in history and he and I have made similar trips together including visiting several reenactments.
Curt
Mike W. posted:I think there are a lot of great responses here. Keep in mind from the beginning I said I was just thinking about this. I was not making a definitive statement. Some keep coming back around train fans...yes lots of people love trains..and even some who aren't railfan like the casually..especially when kids want to pull over and watch a train. But the average person walking in say a mall or something in the USA. No clue about history...trains..etc....probably don't even know who the president was before Reagan.
This concern can also go to photography. Think of all the strange looks we get taking photographs of trains..even people who are shocked when you tell them what you are doing. I get it, some people aren't into trains...but its the larger lack of understanding I don't get. How can people not see the value of photographing every day life, engineering feats, interesting aspects of daily existence. Who wouldn't enjoy full photos over everything in our past thats not staged. I don't care for planes but I can totally appreciate someone hanging out at the airport taking photos of special jets etc.
If Bradford is selling a dozen Royal Scotsman programs in UK and even in the USA that must mean there is a market. They are a smart company and those products cost hundreds of thousands to develop and market. This I know...I love collectibles and have made some good contacts in the industry. I just like things that are cool...I don't care about resale etc...same with trains.
BTW the Canadian $10 bill may exchange at a certain rate but collectors will always pay a good premium for crisp currency. Go to the bank...get a stack of crisp $50's and sell them on Ebay. They will go for at least $75 each.
Amateur as well as professional photography is one of our best weapons against revisionist history. I like to watch old movies, I mean really old movies, including even silent films at times. My granddaughter, Gianna, calls them Poppi movies. My wife just rolls here eyes when she walks into the family room and I have Turner Classic Movies on.
Part of what I get out of watching vintage films is a view of actual history. No, I don't mean the story line as we all know most of them have been written to sell movies at the time. What I am speaking of is looking past the characters to the props and background. I can see, for instance, how Market Street, in Philadelphia actually looked in let's say 1940. The little details like pretzel venders on the corner or store fronts as they would actually have appeared back then. Or perhaps a gas station of the early thirties. The list is endless when it comes to spying these little details. On a more humorous side, I also like to pick out errors in movies.
Still photographs also offer an accurate vision of history. More so than movies. One of my all time favorite documentaries, Ken Burns, The Civil War" boasts a plethora of photographs. We must be thankful that photography was around then, and also during subsequent wars, or the revisionists would surely have their way.
Someone mentioned "1984". We are living it I feel at the moment, and have been for quite some time !
With the current unit container trains, unit coal trains, and unit tank car trains there are less railroad names to identify with these days.
Unit Auto Carrier trains do have some railroad names to see as they pass through your area.
Andrew
Part of the reason for lack of interest in today's railroads is that watching a modern train go by is about as exciting as watching a conveyor belt in a UPS distribution center. The only outstanding colors you will see is the graffiti on the side of the bland cars. Back in the 40's and 50's you had billboard reefers with awesome paint jobs to watch while waiting at the crossing. 
Here is some free reading. For some reason the link opens on page 59. Just scroll to the top. This is the predecessor of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the current North East Corridor.
https://books.google.com/books...ge&q&f=false
p51 posted:El Classico posted:Definitely. What's even more sad is that down here, as a high schooler, I am in essence the local historian, and have landed in trouble before for correcting teachers on THEIR history, from both the state universities and the local high schools (research led them to see I had it right, even if it wasn't the "politically correct" answer).
Man, I also got in trouble for that very same thing when I was in school. I corrected a teacher once when discussing the War of Northern Aggression that ours (Tallahassee) was the only Confederate capitol east of the Mississippi that wasn't in Union hands at the end of the war, which was opposite of what she'd said that all were in yankee hands before the war ended. I also pointed out that Lee surrendering the Army of Northern Virginia didn't officially end the war for the CSA and that there were battles after Lee's surrender in VA. When I mentioned that Lincoln really didn't care about slaves and used them as political pressure in 1863 (when the war wasn't going well for the Union) against British/French influence favoring the Confederacy and a pool of recruits to win the war, the teacher went bonkers.
On January 1. 1863, the CSA retook the City of Galveston TX, and kept it until after the War of Southern Succession ended. BTW, most of the Federal Government's sources of money during this time were import/export taxes. So when the Southern States left........
BTW, the conflict between 1861 and 1865 "officially" is called "The Great Rebellion"!
I have to agree, most Americans don't seem to be as into railroads and their history as many other regions of the world appear to be. The interstates and airplanes took over here. The loss of passenger service over most regions left fewer to even romance about it, and watching only freight go by isn't exactly as glamorous. Rail fanning is now pretty much reduced back to just another form of being an industrial motorhead today(♠). No more emphasis on style to admire, and that's what helped slice such a long lasting chunk of the romantic wedding cake in the first place.
"Its all online if they really need it, or will be eventually."
That's the short sweet version, But go ahead and ask um....
...And now the wild rant version, kicking it off as test to see if you should continue reading: Whats the big difference between "Fahrenheit 451° " and "1984" ?
1533 
Quit now if your inner Sheldon is asleep.
With the wide variety of info available today concerning all things, I do think it's infringing on "the basics" as we know them. But choices have always needed to be made, about what to brush aside, or to keep for the books. ( books themselves are history, even fiction) Today's tech can keep more recorded history than paper & a pen alone ever could have. I think the up and coming generation knows this, and has decided the "real time info", is their prime concern and holds their best chance to better the world though they don't have a clue exactly how it might happen yet. A shaky focus, but if they do focus, their solidarity can grow to a bloom overnight.
"Those that control the present decide the past" would likely be the modern "1984" paraphrase of choice if read today. Those who do write history today, do so today with many "little brothers" ready to edit.
To avoid a loss of record, of what what they see as important info, from? .. say a 451° day. " I think they might hold flash mobs to quickly exchange random flash drives of info..Well, Not exactly.... but "something" would happen if they felt they had to act. Always does.
Then again, the Department of Truths electromagnetic pulse would be lots faster, and more thorough than matches and kerosene, so a head start on memorizing any author, even Ray Bradbury, won't... .... burn; its only fiction.
..so far.
"2+2 is on my mind", so even 42 sounds like a better story problem outcome for earth, than the one where the answer is "5, if you say so".
A lot of the earlier American RR history focused on the "railroad barons" and all that stuff plus the remarkable civil and mechanical engineering that went in to it wasn't very newsworthy. Like today, only the wrecks made headlines -and they had some doozys !!
Adriatic posted:I have to agree, most Americans don't seem to be as into railroads and their history as many other regions of the world appear to be. The interstates and airplanes took over here. The loss of passenger service over most regions left fewer to even romance about it, and watching only freight go by isn't exactly as glamorous. Rail fanning is now pretty much reduced back to just another form of being an industrial motorhead today(♠
"Its all online if they really need it, or will be eventually."
That's the short sweet version, But go ahead and ask um....
...And now the wild rant version, kicking it off as test to see if you should continue reading: Whats the big difference between "Fahrenheit 451° " and "1984" ?
1533
With the wide variety of info available today concerning all things, I do think it's infringing on "the basics" as we know them. But choices have always needed to be made, about what to brush aside, or to keep for the books. ( books themselves are history, even fiction) Today's tech can keep more recorded history than paper & a pen alone ever could have. I think the up and coming generation knows this, and has decided the "real time info", is their prime concern and holds their best chance to better the world though they don't have a clue exactly how it might happen yet. A shaky focus, but if they do focus, their solidarity can grow to a bloom overnight.
"Those that control the present decide the past" would likely be the modern "1984" paraphrase of choice if read today. Those who do write history today, do so today with many "little brothers" ready to edit.
To avoid a loss of record, of what what they see as important info, from? .. say a 451° day. " I think they might hold flash mobs to quickly exchange random flash drives of info..Well, Not exactly.... but "something" would happen if they felt they had to act. Always does.
Then again, the Department of Truths electromagnetic pulse would be lots faster, and more thorough than matches and kerosene, so a head start on memorizing any author, even Ray Bradbury, won't...
..so far.
"2+2 is on my mind", so even 42 sounds like a better story problem outcome for earth, than the one where the answer is "5, if you say so".
I get what you are saying. Only things is what you are saying is in "New Speak". So I will need to brush up on it.....LOL
But how would some people know the "info" coming to them is real "info", and if the info is real, how to deal with it?
There have been major mistakes of info in the course of history. Like there was info that the German Army was going to start something in the Western Front late in WWII. Seems only Patton picked up on it, and was getting ready for what became known as the Battle of the Bulge.
juniata guy posted:Lee:
You make a valid point that schools have never put that much emphasis on teaching history. I know my love of it comes from my dad. He had a very real interest in history - particularly the Civil War - and passed that along to me.
Yep, we both had similar fathers in that regard. Dad would tell me stories about Chancellorsville, Fredericksburg and other crushing Confederate victories. Dad has always loved the idea of a bunch of well-led farmers almost destroying a large standing modern army in the field, routinely.
I'm named after Robert E Lee. Actually, I was going to be named that complete name and then my last name, but Mom hated nicknames and couldn't handle that her youngest son would probably go through childhood as "Bobby". My brother, though, is named Jeb Stuart (and then the family last name).
Dad had the draft hanging over his head at the end of the 1950s, so he decided to join the military for a few years. He joined the USAF because it's the only branch of the military that never fought the Confederacy. No, I'm not kidding.
He also is the best craftsman I've ever known. He's built several civil war artillery pieces of various scales. Here is his pride and joy, a 3/4 scale M1841 6-pounder, and a recently-made 1/6 scale James Rifle:
3/4 scale guns were very common in the early days of civil war re-enacting. Click here to see how far the falls far from the tree, as I still do re-enacting (though it's WW2 since the 90s).
I've been to the natural bridge reenactment, it's been interesting since they got the new battlefield.
UK may be ahead in passenger...but behind in freight for sure.
Dominic Mazoch posted:But how would some people know it the "info" coming to them is real "info", and if the info is real, how to deal with it?
A dangerous assumption that anything one is reading is "real" or the truth.
All info should be thought about. Especially the "losing side's", if for no other reason, to know to avoid beginning that path.
No info should be assumed to be the final word, or our complacency becomes a weapon suited to be used to subdue us.
As a side note, a veteran of Ardennes and the Bulge (and 6 other major WWII battles) was largely responsible for forging these ideals within me.
The copy of the "nuts" letter, and the Christmas card made in Ardennes have been posted here a few times. You must decide their authenticity for yourself
Cur Rah Hee..."stand alone"
El Classico posted:I've been to the natural bridge reenactment, it's been interesting since they got the new battlefield.
We did the first re-enactment ever there, and did so every year until I left for the Army in 1998.
There is a significant segment of the US population that is not interested in anything that is not profitable. History is just one of those things that is usually not profitable.
There is a school near here that appreciates history. Every November, the school puts on a day-long program for veteran's day. My living history group has been asked each year to host classes that are 20 minutes long, where we each go over a segment of military history. A few guys in the group like myself are vets, as well. they also bring in vets of various wars to discuss their experiences.
As we can't bring weapons, we have to get creative. Last year, I discussed veterans in space and the price of exploration (Apollo 1, Challenger, Columbia, for examples). As I'm a public ambassador for the Space Camp and US Space & Rocket Center (with an ID card to prove it), I showed up in my NASA stuff. the kids seemed to relate to it.
In most previous years, I've given talks about war correspondents, the perception of the WW2 era at the time and why we see it today the way we do and how different that is from how it was seen in the 40s (for example, how people were simply fed up with the war, it's cost and the impact at home by the fall of 1944). I bring a small portion of my war correspondent collection along, and last time dressed as a Pacific Theater civilian war correspondent...
I even show them why there's a 'shift' and 'tab' button on modern keyboards, by showing them a 1930s typewriter, including the actual removable tabs used to set margins back then...
And at shows not near schools, I can bring weapons. And I surely do that, along with my 1944 Willys Jeep;
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