Why was the Z4000 (40-4001) remote commander discontinued and is there an alternative?

   This system works great !  Great for a modular layout. It's like having command control for all your pre war and post war engines.  It shut off by itself so you don't use up the batteries. I don't know why they discontinued it.

Quite probably a parts availability issue, though I don't remember if MTH formally mentioned that when they declared the last run.  I think it was mentioned.

It fits the mode of not wanting to re-design hardware.  Similar to the way Mike mentions he will not ever be making a different (upgraded) DCS remote, he is on the App bandwagon.  For that case, it's cheaper to just write software for a popular hardware platform than design new hardware too.

-Dave

I guess that makes sense for a small volume product. Like choo-choo says these things seem to work well, all comments I could find are positive on it. 

Oman, sent you an email.

Parts are no longer available.

The receiver portion was great, since it permitted the DCS remote to vary the output voltage of the Z4000.  Mine has operated flawlessly for over 15 years; I don't have the dedicated handheld.

While Barry gives a stock answer---parts no longer available---it would be interesting to know just what parts are no longer available and what workaround parts are available.  I suspect if MTH or a licensee really wanted to, they could produce an equivalent.

Good point on the receiver.  Of course it's not likely  easier to buy a receiver than a remote/receiver pair.  But if someone can find a receiver, they could pair it with a DCS setup for the remote.

I'm sure a modification of the design using new parts would be possible, but it's not likely to be worth it at this stage of the game.  How many people exist who would want these things that don't already have them?  Lots of investment to redesign the circuit, along with any production modifications (board layout, tooling if it for some reason doesn't fit the same within the case, etc).

Also, while obviously no announcements have been made, I find myself wondering how much longer they will produce the Z4000.  It's been around for quite a few years as well at this point, so parts for manufacturing could become an issue also (though I will admit I don't know if the internals of the Z4K have evolved with design updates over the years). 

Before anyone reads too much into my comment, I'll make it clear: I AM NOT CLAIMING I HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE Z4000 PRODUCTION LONGEVITY, I AM JUST CURIOUS!

-Dave

Power electronics are less susceptible to obsolescence than logic and microprocessors.

True.... I wasn't thinking about power transistors, more like the control circuitry that has all the nifty Proto 1 programming capability, the features relating to how the output reacts if the handles are already advanced upon power up, etc.

-Dave

RJR posted:

While Barry gives a stock answer---parts no longer available---it would be interesting to know just what parts are no longer available and what workaround parts are available.  I suspect if MTH or a licensee really wanted to, they could produce an equivalent.

Obviously, it could be recreated.  The real issue is gaining access to the specifications of the interface so that could be done, that's not going to happen through MTH I suspect.

Right, GRJ.  That's why I included the word "licensee."  Licensing production of devices that MTH doesn't wish to expend effort on, is a vehicle to glean some profit without investing further capital.

Right, RJR.  Seems to me MTH could license someone to make a WiFi Receiver module.  I can understand MTH not wanting to revive the existing 900 MHz technology used in the current Receiver module. 

Since they made it possible for the DCS remote to control the Z-4000 receiver, you'd think they could license someone to make a WiFi Z-4000 receiver to do something similar under control of a "free" or low-cost Android app.  I'd think a good portion of the know-how and software is done and paid for with the upcoming WiFi DCS Explorer.

There aren't many options out there for wireless/remote conventional control of "clean" (not chopped) sine wave transformer. .

I would be one of the first customers to order a new version of the Z-4000 receiver (Remote Commander Receivers [40-4002]), if the new version (wifi or whatever) would fix the problem describe in this post:

https://ogrforum.com/t...voltage-drop-to-zero

The current design, in our experience at our club, forces us to use only the right-side of our four Z-4000 (using 50%).  The left side on all four Z-4000 is too unstable (in a club environment) when used with Remote Commander Receivers [40-4002].

Stan, one could rig up a small motor to mechanically move a ZW handles, and control it with 2 accessory ports on an AIU. 

Daniel Auger posted:

 

The current design, in our experience at our club, forces us to use only the right-side of our four Z-4000 (using 50%).  The left side on all four Z-4000 is too unstable (in a club environment) when used with Remote Commander Receivers [40-4002].

 

My club uses the remote to control both handles on our two Z-4000s without problems. (We have two receivers and two remotes - one for each Z-4000.)  We don't use the remote very often anymore because most of us run command control engines.  A visitor will bring a conventional engine from time to time and we will let them run trains using the remote.

NH Joe

RJR posted:

Stan, one could rig up a small motor to mechanically move a ZW handles, and control it with 2 accessory ports on an AIU. 

If MTH chooses to keep the protocol private, modern servo are inexpensive and remarkably powerful.  Recall that when remote-control Hi-fi (not Wi-fi, but audio Hi-fi ) amplifiers first came out, they had servo motors driving the mechanical volume control knob.  So you'd actually see the big knob on your amplifier turning when you pressed the remote control volume up/down!  Likewise if you remember the first DIY computer printers (in the 1970's), they were based on the venerable IBM Selectric typewriter and you mounted dozens of solenoids each positioned over a key.  Such a contraption could mechanically "press" the Direction, Whistle, and Bell buttons on the Z-4000 front panel.  When there's a will, there's a way.

Remember the first Zenith tv channel changers? 

Rube Goldberg would be very proud of you guys!

OTOH, you could just work on the electronic method...

Well, they say that memory is the first to go.  But the beauty of mechanical controls is they have memory.  You turn power off and they remember their value or setting for free.  So-called non-volatile memory was incredibly expensive in the 60's and 70's so trying to remember what the volume or channel was set to between power-cycles was most economical with the mechanical memory of a rotating switch or knob.  I've frequenty thought that the availability of "free" memory will be the downfall of modern society.  To wit, it has enabled software development to develop sloppy and inefficient bloat-ware...but that's another story.

Anyway, considering the Z-4000 remote has an MSRP of $150, since the "magic" is in the tiny receiver module, someone should be able to do something with WiFi and an Android app without the burden of the mechanical tooling cost of the remote control transmitter.   Don't know about licensing or if MTH would get upset about reverse-engineering the protocol...but I'd think between incredibly inexpensive WiFi and Arduino modules on eBay, there's less than $5 in parts cost to make such a receiver. 

I would guess that any of the competent electronics folks around here could recreate the remote, or something similar without much difficulty.  The hardest part (of an actual device) would be decoding whatever protocol is used between the receiver and z4k. Even that is likely fairly trivial.  If someone in metro detroit has one of the originals I could take a look at what's being used and probably figure it out.  That said, the real hardest part would be defeating MTH's lawyers that make it impractical for third parties to interface with their products.  It just isn't worth it for anyone to spend any time developing add-ons or enhancements, never mind actually recreating something they sold.  

For a do it your self approach for folks not up to the task of recreating the protocol, or dealing with any legal problems with doing so, one could modify the z4k fairly simply to mimic the functionality of the old remote.  One would only have to piggy-back in a couple wires and maybe disconnect a couple wires.  

For my own personal use, I'd probably just figure out how the communication protocol works, (if for some reason I was ever given a z4k, and wanted a remote) but if one wanted to circumvent that, one would could easily open up the transformer, add wires to each button to be controlled by a micro-controller.  The wiper of each throttle's potentiometer would be cut, with both ends of the wires also routed to the uP, allowing manual control as well as remote control.  

I would use something like an nRF24L01+ transceiver ($0.99) for wireless communication, though a esp8266 could be used for wifi control ($2.00)  or an HC-05(6) for bluetooth ($4.00).  Any of these radios are equally "easy" to use for something this simple.  The wifi and bluetooth options would let you avoid having to build a remote, but require knowing how to build an App for control, something a bit more complex than is worth the trouble to learn just for this project.  

While simply using motors, solenoids or servos to mechanically interface with a the transformer has the benefit of working on any transformer, not just the z4k, and wouldn't require any mod to the transformer it's self, it seems like an awful lot of work to design some sort of cradle to fit onto the transformer for this.  slipping a dozen or less wires out the back of the case seems like a simpler prospect.  

Anyway, rambled on long enough.  If anyone actually wants to build a remote control for the z4k, or some other transformer, hit me up with an email or something.  It seems a little complex, but really isn't.  

JGL