Williams by Bachman big game changer-BYOD

If this moves our hobby toward standardization...I'm all for it.

Even if I have to go by an IPod or whatever it may take to use the app (might as well join the rest of the world ).

For those with large layouts it should make it easy to run the Williams Bluetooth locos on the same track as TMCC (or I would assume Legacy or DCS) locomotives. I have one line hooked up for TMCC. With Bluetooth being completely different, I could easily add Williams running command on the same track, without buying an additional command system.

I do agree somewhat with Scrapiron about staring at a glass plate rather than watching the trains, but for switching applications this might be very useful.

Lots to ponder. Technology is evolving so much faster than we can imagine!

Thought I should post something to clarify what this system actually is...

Bachmann is producing a new "way" to control trains.

How is the Bachmann system different from everything that precedes it?

In the past digital command control was the rule of thumb. Most manufacturers based their command systems on this protocol. O gauge trains use digital signaling through the rails to the decoder residing on the PCB in the loco. In current digital control systems the signals are sent to a control box via an RF signal and then through the rails to the decoder in the train.

Bachmann's EZ APP  Bluetooth control sends a signal directly to the locomotive via your smart device (phone, tablet, etc...). Nothing in between - no additional peripherals and minimal interference for high performance. The only wiring required is a constant voltage power source to the track (power pack).It is not DCC.

You just download the APP from the iTunes or Google app sites and launch it - that's all there is to it. The control app finds your Bluetooth equipped loco and you are ready to run.

Don't be afraid of it.

Bachmann's new locomotives are capable of running on existing layouts in the company of other  digital command control systems. Existing systems are sending signals through the track while the new Bachmann Bluetooth equipped locomotives are receiving signals through the air directly so that they can both co-exist on the same layout. Basically both systems are using direct full power to the track and signaling the locos differently thus they can run together. You will use your smart device to control the Bachmann locos and the Digital locos are run with the digital control system of choice.  So in other words to try the Bachmann EZ APP locos you only need to buy a loco and use your device - no need to get rid of any existing systems - please keep using them!

Future progress....

The software based nature of this product shows great potential for growth of model railroading. It will help us as a manufacturer  to create some really awesome ways to run model trains more realistically and also develop fun ways for new entry level model railroaders. Bachmann will be producing the locos in HO scale to test the water. HO is our most predominant scale in volume which will give Bachmann a good idea of how well it will sell.

There is no "Right" or "Wrong" way to run a model locomotive. Bachmann is providing a way to do it that takes advantage of current electronic communication advances. Keep your current command systems and if one day Bachmann produces an O Gauge loco with Bluetooth it will play nicely with your current Digital locos.

Jack,thanks for the good information. I can definitely see a place for this on my layout.

Brad

Yes, Jack thank you for the good information!  While I agree with Bob that some technologies don't go anywhere, if marketed correctly (if that means putting Bluetooth in any manufacturers locomotives) then this could be big as I said earlier.

I just Sold all my HO a few years ago and moved to O gauge because I couldn't see as well and am getting klutzy.  You will tempt me to buy an HO Bluetooth engine, just to see what it's all about!  ��

First, Scott thanks for posting this news.  I totally missed this at York on Sat. when talking to Jack about their upcoming 44 Tonner and the ability/space to add ERR TMCC and or a Tsunami sound board.

Put me in the camp that believes that the bluetooth integration is something of great interest and potential should be watched.  The possibilities with bluetooth seem to be far reaching from engine and layout control to various remote sound features that can be incorporated either throughout one's layout and/or to a bluetooth compatible home sound-system (You want that great steam pounding chuff or diesel roar - you got it with an integrated subwoofer that is located in your train room.

As for the argument that you can look at/control only 1 loco at a time on a screen on a tablet that IMO is not necessarily true.  Yes, i-pads/phones currently only single task, but that will likely change since various android/windows devices offer multi-window operations.  If the software allows multiple & simultaneous engines/views the single view/control argument/complaint is mitigated.  Also as others mentioned both the DCS & Legacy controllers offer control of only 1 train.  You must manually select a new engine (giving up control of the prior) to control new unless you go with more than one remote.  Multiple tablets/smart phones are another option.  Although tablet sales are declining at the gain of larger and more powerful smartphones, there appears to be many affordable options available in tablets, unlocked smartphones and bluetooth pc's.

Based on what we've heard, I would agree that we will not see many, if any new developments in the current (DCS/Legacy) remote design.  For numerous reasons, our O gauge hobby (their business) has been gradually shrinking in both participants and dealers.

If WBB's bluetooth communication development incorporates a way to easily and affordably control trains of various makes (WBB/Lionel/MTH) under one control system umbrella the needed strong arm push of WBB and their very strong parent corp. might be the force to make it happen.  Yes, there will always be holdovers to the old tech; we currently still have a number of diehards running only pre-war, post war, MPC, Marx, etc and likely users of single blade razors.  But time and tech marches on.

MTH and Lionel likely do not have or wish to use their resources to further R&D when they are model train companies that often struggle to get train products from catalog to market.  They are no longer enjoying the go-go times of the late 1980's and 1990's when the O Gauge hobby was likely at it's high point with variety of products and manufacturers as well as a strong customer base that was buying all the new and old product.  DCS hardware is getting long in the tech tooth and Legacy is roughly half the age of DCS so it's understandable that each still wants to get the most bang for its R&D buck by offering their own tablet/phone control.

WBB's bluetooth development project should be on both MTH and Lionel's radar.  The potential sales of the WBB product could greatly limit the future sales of M & L's systems or components.  I think Steve Jobs said (paraphrasing) that the further development of the cellphone would likely lead to the end of the ipod, so it would better if Apple were to develop the phone (iphone) with that music feature at the risk of cannibalizing ipod sales instead of having some other company develop the phone and do it to Apple.  Which is where music and ipods and phones are today; I-pod sales are rapidly declining due to music features are now common on so many smartphones.  In our hobby, MTH and/or Lionel might be faced with that similar decision.

The best scenario is that WBB's bluetooth might be the single platform "holy grail" unifier in 3 rail; the worst is that the WBB b/t further fragments the hobby.  Stay tuned...

Jack. Thank-you for the proper information on the Bachmann Blue Tooth. This is definitely something I will buy when an "O" gauge Blue Tooth Engine is available.

Thanks again for this.

Interesting Jack. Will a locomotive still need a " decoder" of some sort to enable the blue tooth to operate engines functions? Interesting to see what the future holds.

it is not DCC so it does not have a DCC decoder.

DCC decoder boards and the BlueRail board use a very small computer to decode the messages they receive and control the motor and the functions (lights).  The basic difference in the boards is how they get/send messages and the addition of the Bluetooth RF unit.

Bob

If the engine has a decoder in it, why does one need a blue tooth, why not just run it with a MTH command remote, does not MTH run their HO trains with DCC and from their hand remote? I wondered for years why Bachmann did not put DCC in their O gauge trains. 

Just to be clear....  LionChief and LionChief Plus are digital command control systems for locomotives that do not receive signals through the rails, as do DCS and Legacy locos. These LC and LC+ locos receive their commands through the air because like Bluetooth they are radio frequency systems in which the remote directly communicates with the locomotive.  They are also 2.4 GHz spread spectrum systems routinely available off the shelf, and could readily and inexpensively be adapted to using a single controller to address multiple different locomotives if Lionel wished to do so.  Bluetooth is another protocol/system for doing what is already being done with LC and LC+.  Nothing revolutionary, just another option for simple RF loco control.

Yes, nothing revolutionary in the technology, but vastly different in the availability (and cost) of devices (hardware, firmware, and software).  You can buy (in single quantities and with shipping charges) small ready-to-run Bluetooth-to-Serial boards for <$8 and Bluetooth-USB-Dongles for $6.  Bluetooth opens the door for significantly lower overall costs and a wide variety of compatible controllers and control applications.

Bob

Understood.  But the WBB system has two big advantages I see:

1.  You won't need multiple remotes as is the case with LC+.

2.  You won't be captive to what, at least to me, appears to be a relatively low quality LC+ controller.  You simply install an application on whatever smart device you are using at that time.

"

Understood.  But the WBB system has two big advantages I see:

1.  You won't need multiple remotes as is the case with LC+.

2.  You won't be captive to what, at least to me, appears to be a relatively low quality LC+ controller.  You simply install an application on whatever smart device you are using at that time."

Consider though that:

1. Lionel can easily design a remote than controls multiple locos if they wish, in response to the Bachmann initiative.  Particularly if Bachmann patents their system and restricts it to use for their own locos.  Lionel's market share is probably 20 times what Bachmann's is in O gauge, in terms of dealerships and brand recognition.  Should be an interesting competition if the Bachmann system creates additional stimulus.

2. The LC+ controller is perfectly good quality, and it is a controller with tactile feel, something people like.  Not everyone prefers a touch screen.  I find myself using the keyboard on my desktop iMac, my iPad, etc. in preference to the touch screen on my iPad and iPhone for most things.  Indeed, I use the voice recognition software in the iPhone at every opportunity to avoid using the touchpad if possible.  No tactile sensations and no tactile feedback are a major disadvantage for many users, myself included.  Once again, should be an interesting competition. 

I'll throw in another one.  Everyone says that Williams by Bachmann is such a bargain.  I'd suggest they no longer are, in terms of MSRP, particularly after adding whatever cost this system will entail.  LC and LC+ beat most Williams by Bachmann pricing today in many cases, so the cost advantage they (Bachmann) had may no longer be the case.  Time will tell.

Probably this: http://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm.  Another (and in my opinion unnecessary expensive) proprietary interface system.

Bob

I thought it was one of the other train manufacturers.  It had it's own remote and little boards you put into the locomotive.

Marty,

Was it the Train Engineer system by Aristo/Crest:

https://ogrforum.com/t...591#6498170313861591

Yep I think that was it.

Here's their website:

http://www.crest-electronics.net/

haven't heard much about it since Aristo went away.

Hi Folks,

    I am sure that if a hobbyist prefers the feel of push-buttons and knobs instead of a touchscreen, some sort of a device could connect to the smartphone or tablet that would provide that functionality.  I use a small USB keyboard with my 7" touchscreen tablet when I need to do a lot of typing on the go, so some type of USB joystick device would work for me.

   I am all for the idea!

Take care, Joe.

Finally, buttons you can push so you don't have to push buttons...

Rusty

Most (if not all of these 2.4 GHz proprietary interfaces) use (or are based on) what is call Zigbee.  Zigbee is similar and uses a lot of the same hardware technology that Bluetooth uses.

There is a good comparison of the different technologies at, www.digikey.com called "Comparing Low-Power Wireless Technologies".

Bob

The really interesting part that nobody seems to be talking about is that the audio can be sent via Bluetooth to a remote device. This could be the tablet/phone, but it can also be an under layout speaker system with a big subwoofer. That is what I want to see/hear.

I did some testing a while back and it is feasible. The 7 connections is the limiting factor today. Perhaps the next gen Bluetooth spec will increase that number.

This is also good news for those interested in battery power. An RF based command signal is all but a must for battery power.

I will be interested to try it when it comes out.

The number of connections using the current Bluetooth 4.x technology is only limited by the application’s memory size and software.  Because most (properly designed) model train applications only require periodic busts of data to be transmitted, there is (practically speaking) no limitation.  Limitations will come with the number of “continuous” data streaming functions (audio, video, ...) that are added.  Typically each would reduce the 39 (or 40?) available channels by one.  A large number (~20) of Bluetooth “streaming” applications transmitting within several feet of the Bluetooth train hardware would not be a good idea.

Bob

Actually Marty, the manufacturer claims mine is smart.

We think use a different model!

Hope that you can buy this as an add on to existing Williams engines!

Would be great!

Ken thanks a bunch for the video interview!! 

This looks great.   I am a big LionChief fan, and this appeals to me along the same lines.   And I love the WBB locos for the running capabilities.   I can't wait for preorders, let us know!

Great idea Rusty Traque, a small control-stand would be awesome!

I wonder if the E-Z App will be available with the O gauge GE 44 ton switcher they are releasing.  It would be great, then I would not have to convert it to TMCC.

Neal Jeter 

Ken Jr TW,

Thank you for sharing the interview with Jack!!  It is amazing how much a little demonstration can add to photos and printed descriptions.  I am thoroughly impressed.

I finally got into command control with a DCS last winter.  Even though I have 38 years experience working in electronics, elect and telecom design, I do not like things electrical.  I have been in model railroading for 45 years and always hated building layouts to run conventionally with all the blocks. etc.  I want something as simple as possible for my hobby.  I will certainly be watching EZ App as progress continues.

I understand what you are saying about the LC+ controller.  It's tactile but it felt cheap and light to me.  Stated differently, it did not feel as high quality as my traditional TMCC remote, DCS remote, or the Legacy remotes I've handled (don't own one yet).  My iPad and iPhone, as well as any good Samsung phone, also feel more substantial in your hand but admittedly lack tactile feel.  Personally, I would prefer a higher quality LC+ controller.

I agree with your point about WBB pricing.  They are no longer positioning themselves as a bargain.  In fact, LC+ locomotives, as well as discounted PS3 locomotives are in my view now a better value even adjusted for what may be a slightly higher purchase cost on the Lionel and MTH units.  I think the pricing on the BT units is an unknown right now. 

One of the infuriating obstacles in O three rail has been incompatible, competing

electronic systems, like old VCR's.  If this gets it to where HO is, with one universal system, this will bring O three rail out of the stone age.

Well said.

This is bad news for many of us tried and true Williams buyers. Bachmann has changed the entire Williams line into another more expensive not wanted by all train offerings.

No bad news...

Bachmann is releasing the EZ App in HO first. The Williams line is not changing. If and when it does come to O gauge it will most likely be in addition to our conventionally operated O gauge.