Williams by Bachmann Berkshire issue

I'd be curious to see replies to this as well. This issue has made me leery of buying WBB steam. Never had this issue with their diesels.

My friend also has a Berk (or similar) WBB engine and it won't make it more than a lap or two before really losing power and just stopping. I suspect the motor may have been overheating per my personal experience and seeing my friends engine.

Also seen several complaints about this over the years regarding various engines on the WBB forum as well as here and CTT.

I seem to vaguely remember this being an issue as well.  Like I said, my WBB J class has run fine the past three or so years I've used it on the display.  This one just doesn't seem to like running right.

I've had it apart for lubrication work and such and didn't see any issues.  The mechanism definitely doesn't have any binds in it as it rolls very smoothly without the motor in place.  

Jake,

test the motor separately and check the current consumption. (0.6 amp maybe less without load)

without the motor test the voltage supplied by the reverse unit. 

without numbers is hard to know what is causing the problem.

Andre.

I just today sent an email to WBB about this with a 40505 Nickel Plate Berkshire, never used until this week. In mine, at least, the flange of the right rear driver scrapes the adjacent blind drive when going around a left curve, why it should get worse with operation is beyond me but it does! After a while it locks completely, but when you lift it from the track and let the drivers "float" in their axles it frees up. Curves causing the problem are O-36.

In mine, the current definitely goes up as the speed goes down, pointing to some type of mechanical issue. 

Interesting, I'll have to play around with mine a bit more when I have time.  I was rushing to get the display maintenance done for a show last time I had it apart and didn't have the time to really look into the problem and just put a different locomotive out.

I should add, I ran the chassis around without the shell and no load behind it for about a half hour that night and it never seemed to have an issue.

It sounds like a reverse unit issue. Bypass the reverse unit temporarily with a full wave bridge rectifier and run it for a while to isolate the problem.

Unless it's still under the lifetime warranty, then give Bachmann a chance at it.

Like I said, I bought it used from the forum so warranty isn't possible.  I think I have a spare williams reverse board around here that I'll try out too.

I bought a WBB scale AT&SF Hudson this past month.  I had been weary due to negative comments about WBB steam issues.  But, the price was right - $299.00 -, I thought it looked great, and I've been wanting a properly sized western road steam engine to run and shelf..

So, how has it worked out?

The set box glued edge fell apart when I first tried to open it.  I can fix this.

The smoke bottle had a pretty good leak, but thankfully it was in a plastic bag and contained.

One traction tire was broken out of the box.  It does come with spares.

The sound system does not work.  I am waiting for a reply from WBB regarding these issues.

However, it runs great.  Smooth as silk at all speeds.  Pulls 5 18" passenger cars like they weren't there.  Though, I'm running it on 081 and 090 track.

So despite all I'm happy with it because it looks great and runs great.  Everything else is fixable.

Alan

Jake,

When you run it and it begins to act up, how hot does the motor get? I assume this engine is one of the WBB with the motor sticking out of the cab?

As I recall, it gets pretty warm.  But it's been about a month since I've played around with it and it's at the theater 30 miles away, so I unfortunately can't verify anything for a couple days.

Jake, 

Any update on this? Would like to know the outcome!

Sorry for the late reply SJC, I never saw your comment and I haven't had a chance to get back to troubleshooting this problem until now.  Unfortunately I don't have my Christmas layout up to rule wiring issues with that out, but considering every other locomotive we ran on it operated just fine, this is definitely limited to a locomotive issue with the berkshire.  I ran my Williams J class, which basically has the same mechanism and motor setup for a few days at the theater as well and it had absolutely no issues.

I just ran it around a pretty big oval with the same 0-72 curves I used at the theater on the track it ran on.  With a 12 car train made up of o-27 style cars, it ran for about 15-20 minutes straight without exhibiting the behavior it had at the theater (slowing on curves after a few laps and finally stopping dead).  The motor after this time was burning hot to the touch however, so there is definitely still an issue there.  I could understand a little heat from the motor, but this definitely seems excessive.  I can also sense a heat type smell coming from the motor.

I'm about to take it apart and check the motor by itself as Andre suggested above.  I'm kind of thinking that will be where the issue lies, though I also have a spare reverse board around somewhere I'll try out too.

It's a great little locomotive, so hopefully I can get it to run as good as it looks.

Jake, 

Thanks for sharing your tests. I approached Bachmann about this at York and they said it may have come from a run of bad motors. Larry Harrington quickly sent me a new motor and it is at my dealer now for installation and testing. Hopefully this will be the end of the saga, will report back when I get the engine back. 

I'll do a test on the motor and see if it comes up bad, and if so, maybe I'll shoot Bachmann an email and see if they can do anything.  It's definitely not under warranty (especially since I bought it from a forum member slightly used), so I'm not sure if they can do anything or not.

I know my initial testing showed the chassis runs very smoothly and there's no binding with or without the motor mounted, so it's definitely the motor or the reverse board.

Not to ruin all the fun, but I sent my WBB Berkshire (with bad mechanical binding and the severe overheating) back to Bachmann for their $55 flat rate "warranty" repair. I paid the shipping one way, which was about $12. They didn't explain much, but the unit came back working perfectly in all regards. Well worth the price, although it would have been nice had it been correct when I bought it in 2009......

Quite frankly, I'm not a huge fan of their warranty policy.  I had an HO climax that stripped all its internal gears (a known issue with them).  I knew exactly when it had been purchased (well within the warranty) and where, but couldn't provide a receipt because it was a Christmas gift, so they still charged me for the repair.  Which ended up involving me receiving a 4-4-0 in return because they didn't have the parts to fix my Climax, nor any replacements.  I'm happy with the 4-4-0, but I still don't feel I should have paid for something known to be a design issue with their locomotives.

I don't like the idea of it, but if it's just the motor I'll buy a new one from their parts dept if they won't send me one like SJC was lucky to get.  It's too much hassle and money to send the whole thing for basic work if it's not covered under the warranty anyway.  As I said, it's obviously not a mechanical issue, so it should just be a simple motor or reverse board swap.

Well, as I suspected, I got a reply to my email to the service dept.  Without the warranty being good, they won't send me the motor, even though it definitely appears to be a manufacturing issue with these.

Obviously I can't expect them to pay for repairs to an out of warranty engine, that's my problem, but I'm still trying to see if I can get through to them, especially since this isn't my first time having issues with Bachmann product quality.

Sounds like a circuit board issue again with Bachmann's supplier. They had problems with circuit boards a few years ago as well.

Lee Fritz

Well, I finally got a response from Bachmann, and they'll send me a new motor at a reduced cost.  Considering I bought the engine used so the warranty wouldn't be any good anyway, I definitely can't complain about that.

Let us know if replacing the motor solves the scorching hot motor issue. I have read a lot of posts claiming that this problem is an issue with the reverse board, either by design or defect.

PLCProf posted:

Let us know if replacing the motor solves the scorching hot motor issue. I have read a lot of posts claiming that this problem is an issue with the reverse board, either by design or defect.

Will do.  I also swapped the reverse board for a spare on I had that was working fine when I pulled it out of an atlas diesel I converted to TMCC, but haven't had a chance to test it yet.

Check the gauge of your wheels...especially the drivers. If they are out-of-gauge they can cause binding. The binding can cause the motor to work harder...resulting in over heating and shutting down.

WBB....the problem is in the name....Bachman. I would never buy anything made by them. My dad had a big HO layout, with all kinds of rolling stock and engines including Bachman...and every piece was cheap and junky. All the other ones including Tyco, Athearn etc was very well made. But the Bachman was not, so there ya go. I would search out PRE-Bachman Williams.

c. lee colbert posted:

WBB....the problem is in the name....Bachman. I would never buy anything made by them. My dad had a big HO layout, with all kinds of rolling stock and engines including Bachman...and every piece was cheap and junky. All the other ones including Tyco, Athearn etc was very well made. But the Bachman was not, so there ya go. I would search out PRE-Bachman Williams.

Well in some ways, your comparison sounds a bit unfair.  It sounds as though your father would have had older Bachmann equipment.  Their quality has greatly improved in the last 10 years.  Is it the best?  Of course not, but I've had good luck with several HO pieces from them (geared type locomotives such as my climax, not so much) and my Williams by Bachmann J class is one of the best engines I have.

I'm sure Pre-Bachmann Williams stuff had better quality control, but I already own this one so that doesn't solve my problem.

SantaFe158 posted:

c. lee colbert posted:

WBB....the problem is in the name....Bachman. I would never buy anything made by them. My dad had a big HO layout, with all kinds of rolling stock and engines including Bachman...and every piece was cheap and junky. All the other ones including Tyco, Athearn etc was very well made. But the Bachman was not, so there ya go. I would search out PRE-Bachman Williams.

Well in some ways, your comparison sounds a bit unfair.  It sounds as though your father would have had older Bachmann equipment.  Their quality has greatly improved in the last 10 years.  Is it the best?  Of course not, but I've had good luck with several HO pieces from them (geared type locomotives such as my climax, not so much) and my Williams by Bachmann J class is one of the best engines I have.

I'm sure Pre-Bachmann Williams stuff had better quality control, but I already own this one so that doesn't solve my problem.

Gotta agree with Jake on this one. Before coming back into O Gauge at Christmas 2004, I had a very large HO collection and layout (still have the trains, no layout now. Only O gauge now). A vast majority of my collection was from Bachmann. All were excellent runners and I put years of service on them without any issue. Granted my HO stuff hasn't run in years - some well over a decade. I'm sure the grease is caked and hardened but with minor servicing they'd take off and run again. I always found Tyco to really be cheap junk. 15 years ago the Bachmann HO stuff was fine and I'm sure still is. It looks great. The N scale stuff was junk but friends in the local N-trak club say the new Bachmann stuff is outstanding and it looks just as good. They finally got rid of those horrific hook and loop type couplers that always fell off. Go back into the 1990s and it may have had some quality issues but Life-Like, Tyco, etc were and always will be junk. 

Williams By Bachmann stuff is excellent. I do however find I've had much better luck with the diesels then steam but I've had tons of WBB stuff. I sold a bit a few years ago (regrettably) and am now building my collection back up. The new Peter Witt Street car is just beautiful and runs like a dream. Same goes for the GP30 - sounds great also! The WBB 4-6-0 has a few minor issues and I have parts coming today that will hopefully eliminate the binding in the drivers. It appears to be geared very well and operates very smoothly overall. I hope I can get it to run properly this week. My J has also had the "hot motor" issue and is in for more diagnostics and a motor swap. Many of my other diesels from WBB/W-preB run like clockwork. 

You are all doing the same thing when calling manufacturers' products "junk": referring to a nonspecific time period or limited sampling.

Bachmann's early HO stock wasn't bad. The U36B, for instance, produced prior to 1977 had a diecast frame. But Bachmann, or Kader after Bachmann Bros. was sold to its Hong Kong manufacturer and became Bachmann Industries, cheapened its product line to compete on price point with Tyco in the 1980s. In the late '80s, Bachmann began planning an upgraded line, Spectrum, with metal frames that looked and ran better than its train set products. Today, very little of the cheap product line remains in production. And Bachmann competes on the high end, as well.

Tyco did have a cheap product from the mid-1970s until Mattel purchased the company in 1997.  But you either forgot or didn't realize that the initial years of the Tyco brand name in the early 1960s was the ready-to-run wing of Mantua Metal Products, which manufactured diecast metal steam locomotive kits and metal-framed and metal truck rolling stock in New Jersey. Mantua's early diesels weren't too bad either when its truck-mounted motors had metal frames. The quality slipped as Mantua began replacement of old diecast-oriented tooling with injection-molded plastic designs, first on parts such as steam pilots and cabs and then on small steam boilers (its 0-4-0 Booster and Shifter models), but slipped more after Mantua Metal Products was sold to Consolidated Foods (Sara Lee) in the early 1970s and became Tyco Industries, with all production in Hong Kong. (In the 1980s, Mantua's original owner eventually began producing products equivalent to its 1960s line again and made its products in New Jersey again, but it had no connection to the Tyco name or Tyco Industries at that point.)

Life-Like initially emerged from old Varney HO tooling, in part, in the 1960s, but quickly decided to compete on the low end of the hobby. But in the late 1980s, that changed. Life-Like began producing metal-framed HO locomotives similar to Athearn's line and more refined, all in China. Life-Like was eventually purchased by Walthers, which concentrated mostly on the higher hobby end of the brand.

Bachmann and Life-Like followed the same production pattern with their N scale lines over the years.

Yup, my Pa's layout was made in the late '70's early '80's. And most of the Bachman was the low end stuff. The Tyco was older Mantua era remakes I think. But the Athearns were good, I had a hard time getting him to buy into the ones that cost a little more, but he did so and liked the Athearn stuff after a while. I even tried to get him to convert to the Kadee couplers but lost that battle!

Just got a new Williams GP9 from Mario - same thing. The motors start ROASTING after just a short time. It seems to run OK and of course I properly lubricated it. It was pulling 8 semi-scale/027 freight cars (2 die-cast cars, rest plastic with metal trucks/couplers). 

I just emailed Joe @ Mario's to see if he had any idea what causes this and if I could swap it out for one that hopefully runs cooler. 

Wow, you have all the luck. I have a Williams 21412 GP-9 and it runs fine. The couplers were no good as received but the motor and electronics were no problem.

My WBB Berkshire is the only one I have had motor/electronic trouble with. My S-2 turbine was perfect as received and has stayed that way.

PLCProf posted:

Wow, you have all the luck. I have a Williams 21412 GP-9 and it runs fine. The couplers were no good as received but the motor and electronics were no problem.

My WBB Berkshire is the only one I have had motor/electronic trouble with. My S-2 turbine was perfect as received and has stayed that way.

Tell me about it!

My J is still at my dealer as he is trying to figure out what makes it overheat. 

I've got several and had have more Williams diesels that have ALL run cool as a cucumber without issue for years. This is the first Williams diesel that gets hot. Hopefully Mario's will replace it with a good one. 

hello SIC and PLCPROF..........

Perhaps have Bachmann/Williams sent you an replacement motor, its really not hard to change motors providing they send the right one.  I have a Williams F-3 ABA set and purchased 2  motor kits to power 2 of my non-power units.  It is very straight forward you can install it yourself rather to have it send back for repairs.  The motors rather looked bit low cost.  I didn't have any problems with my F-3's 6 motors (ABA set) as at least all 6 motors run fine , no over heating and they all started about same time.  I never thought I could get all 3 power units to start to run together and not fight each other I guess I was lucky ?  The motors draw about an amp each running by themselves installed at 13 volts of total of 6 amps and they not even get warmed.  The bottom line is that if I can install the motors , so can you.  Just a reminder when replacing the motor , always put fresh grease in the gear box before putting the motor in and after that check for binding by turning the flywheel with your finger if its free then you good to go. 

Tiffany

My new motor arrived in the mail today, so when I have time I'll install it and put it through some tests.  It looks like a slightly different motor than the original (same mounting and gear though), so hopefully that means some sort of improvement.  I'll also check for binding on curves as somebody mentioned above.  That was something I hadn't thought about before.

I probably should stay out of this discussion but I can't. I have 12 Williams locos that are all Before Bachmann and have never had any problems. There doesn't seem to be any difference in rolling stock. Possibly someone with a Williams before and a Williams by could make a comparison.

I wonder if the steam locos were all before Bachmann since all of the Williams before Bachmann have been dropped by

Bachmann from their catalogs?

rogruth posted:

I probably should stay out of this discussion but I can't. I have 12 Williams locos that are all Before Bachmann and have never had any problems. There doesn't seem to be any difference in rolling stock. Possibly someone with a Williams before and a Williams by could make a comparison.

I wonder if the steam locos were all before Bachmann since all of the Williams before Bachmann have been dropped by

Bachmann from their catalogs?

I've got a few WBB and one Original Williams. Open them up and they look exactly the same. Same wiring diagram, same boards, same manufacturing style. I'm sure the steamers vary per unit. 

I recall that WbB stickers were added to some and as I mentioned above many of the original Williams locos have been dropped.

Western depot has many of the older ones for sale.

Just delete if the above statement is improper.

rogruth posted:

I recall that WbB stickers were added to some and as I mentioned above many of the original Williams locos have been dropped.

Western depot has many of the older ones for sale.

Just delete if the above statement is improper.

Hello guys and gals.........

Just a matter of time when the good old Williams will fade into history just like post war Lionel was. Pretty sad to say at least !! I surely would like to have the Williams S.F. black NW-2 but cannot afford it at this time.  We bought the Williams F-3's back in 2014 when we had funds but now we don't.  We better treasured the Williams F-3s we have as they are really good runners all 3 of them.

Tiffany

FYI I did try swapping the reverse board in the "hot" engine with a good one in a "cool" engine. No difference, "hot engine" remained, well, HOT!

SJC posted:

FYI I did try swapping the reverse board in the "hot" engine with a good one in a "cool" engine. No difference, "hot engine" remained, well, HOT!

If you have an ohmmeter it would be interesting to see if there is a difference in DC resistance across the motor leads. Maybe these aren't really bad motors but rated for a lower voltage that were installed by mistake. To check this you would have to unsolder one of the motor leads so its not connected to the e unit or second motor.

Pete