York goes public in the Spring of 2017

Bob Kazian posted:

Boilermaker1 posted:

They can open it to the public, where are these people going to come from? I dont envision people coming from hours away to check this out (most of them have likely paid their dues or come in as a guest already), so this will gain some locals... thats about it. 

My only real question... how much will they charge the public to get in on Friday and Saturday, such that the membership can still justify paying TCA dues and the meet fee for only the exclusive use of Thursday?

TCA Members would still have the exclusive entrance to the Member Halls for Thurs to Sat.

Depending on the cost of Public admission there would be an incentive for Mr Public to joint TCA to experience the "Total York Experience" and see what the Member Halls have to offer. 

Without a doubt, there will be some members who are willing to pay the tax man to be able to sell their wares to the larger audience in the dealer halls. To some, the member halls are more of an incentive than others.... all depends what you're after and how much time (and money) you can spend.

I think it'll take a few York cycles to see what shakes out, and I'm willing to wait and let it happen... but for those people who work, have schedule constraints, etc... being able to get into the dealer halls on Friday without being a TCA member may be a big plus, especially if its less than the $40.50 ($15.50 for the meet + half the annual TCA dues, assuming you go twice a year) than it costs for the "all access" badge.

From what I understand TCA membership is declining due to death, health or non renewal for one reason or another. So my question is to the people who are against opening to the public, what would you have the TCA do? You can't force people to join and you can't bring back the dead.

I think the number of members dropping their membership so they can pay as general public is small compared to the amount of members that  want to shop in the member halls. Most of the stuff I bought last October I bought in the member halls. If it doesn't effect you directly, then don't sweat it. There's no easy answer, but it's going to happen no matter what.

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts......

*Just wondering if this was a TCA email or an Eastern Division email?  I don't see a mention of this announcement in the latest TCA email I received last week.

*Be that as it may, I imagine if this announcement was made then they must have worked out the logistics, or are working on them now.  Since York Meet registration at the door is in the member's Silver Hall, will they have a way to funnel non-members out from strolling the Silver/Blue Halls?  I'd think they'd need to set up in one of the dealer halls for non-member admissions.  They'll need more volunteers.

*You just know there will be a lot of non-members who will attempt to get into the member halls.  It's human nature.  How will they police this?  Will they be lenient at the April meet or will they enforce the admission rules?  More volunteers and more security.  Time will tell how out of hand, or not, it will get.

*I've been to a few Greenburg's Shows held in the Orange Hall the last few years.  They were sparsely attended.  I hope the 'public non-members' will see the value of a larger model train event.

*Will the Eastern Division be able to secure enough volunteers to handle the anticipated increased attendance?  

*What will be the cost of admission for the non-member public?  Currently the cost for a TCA member to register for the Meet at the door is $22.  You would think admission for a non-member who isn't a guest of a TCA member would have to cost more to keep the value of a TCA membership.  Unless the admission would be for that day only as opposed to a member's three day admission.

*Everyone who has attended the York Meet knows that late Friday and Saturdays are slower sales days, according to some vendors.  Are the vendors going to be willing to keep their booths open until closing on Saturday to serve the extra attendees, or will they still want to get outta town and start packing up before noon?  What will John and Mary Public, and their little kids Bobby and Suzie think of the hobby when they arrive at 11am on Saturday for a day of looking at trains, or maybe buying some, and see most of the vendors packed up ?

*Again, time will tell, but what happens if there is no significant increase in attendance at the Meet?  What will be the ideas of those who petitioned so hard to open the York Meet to the public?  What are the expected attendance numbers from those who petitioned for the change?  Surely they must have some marketing information that told them that large amounts of people are desiring to attend.

*I hope this decision works out for everyone.  Hopefully my thoughts above will have a positive and desired outcome.  The York Meet is a tremendous event for model train enthusiasts and I'll continue to enjoy it and support the TCA with my continued membership.  There's nothing to compare to the variety of trains, all the great vendors and the wonderful people who attend.  If you're on the fence about attending, and you love model trains, don'tcha dare miss it!!

Wow.....wasn't expecting this that soon after the changes to October......but, it was inevitable. One has to try things to stay competitive and current. We all do it in our businesses all the time.........why not the TCA?

It's no big deal for me......York is about the people, and that won't change for me. If this broadens the appeal of the hobby and TCA, I welcome it!

Peter 

LOL!! Eddie, you are so predictable.

So is every other response.
The devil is in the details.

I am fairly certain that the last TCA email I received was on 8/9 titled: "Advancing in August".
I don't see where it has any mention of the show.
Did I miss an email?

In any case, if opening the show to the public creates problems, the Eastern Division could always go back to a private show.

I only attend the dealer halls,  the rest seemed like a blur to me in years past. 

I have noticed a considerable drop in attendance since my first visit 22 years ago.  Easier to flow through, not crowded anymore.

It seems like the internet has helped make the aisles more enjoyable.

Notch 6 posted:

If the only value that a TCA member sees is a semi annual show and is willing to drop out because of this change, then the TCA has larger issues they need to be concerned about.

That's the problem...they do.  The current leadership though is showing that they want to fix a lot of that.  They seem to be much more active and on top of things.

Also those worried about security...I don't see an issue.  The current guards are more than adequate.  Just ask the guys that were complaining a few years ago about not being let into the hall with their father's yellowed badge holder.  Security always looks at the badges.  The 500 or so more poeple, if that, won't make much of a challenge. 

I just don't see where all these "public" folks are going to come from.  I could be wrong but I'm not sure that unless you're within an hour of the show you're not going to make a trip out of it.  I just see memberships being dropped, and those folks becoming the majority of the public.  I think making it public is a good thing, I just don't see it as a big draw.As others have said it will be a wait and see.

MartyE posted:

I just don't see where all these "public" folks are going to come from.  I could be wrong but I'm not sure that unless you're within an hour of the show you're not going to make a trip out of it.  I just see memberships being dropped, and those folks becoming the majority of the public.  I think making it public is a good thing, I just don't see it as a big draw.As others have said it will be a wait and see.

Unless there is a good advertising campaign - radio and TV and maybe newspapers (if anyone reads them anymore) - I also don't know where these "public folks" will be coming from.  If they don't know about it, they won't come.

It will be interesting to see the attendance numbers when they are published and compared to the past few years' numbers.

Andy

Traindiesel posted:

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts......

*Just wondering if this was a TCA email or an Eastern Division email?  I don't see a mention of this announcement in the latest TCA email I received last week.

*Be that as it may, I imagine if this announcement was made then they must have worked out the logistics, or are working on them now.  Since York Meet registration at the door is in the member's Silver Hall, will they have a way to funnel non-members out from strolling the Silver/Blue Halls?  I'd think they'd need to set up in one of the dealer halls for non-member admissions.  They'll need more volunteers.

*You just know there will be a lot of non-members who will attempt to get into the member halls.  It's human nature.  How will they police this?  Will they be lenient at the April meet or will they enforce the admission rules?  More volunteers and more security.  Time will tell how out of hand, or not, it will get.

Its been suggested members will will retain the badges and non members will get wrist bands or something similar. Non members could be registered at the Orange Hall. Shouldn't be any harder to keep non members from the member halls than it is now.

Pete

Whatever.......

Wait and see - It'll either work or not. 

File under "Meh"............

...there goes the neighborhood.

Time will tell.....

I would like to see Thursday open earlier, so we TCA members could cover the entire place before the tens of thousands of hoi polloi storm the battlements.

RJR posted:

I would like to see Thursday open earlier, so we TCA members could cover the entire place before the tens of thousands of hoi polloi storm the battlements.

Use Thursday to go to the dealer halls.  The "hoi polloi" as you put it will not be allowed in the member halls.  There are only 2 dealer halls.  This is a non issue I believe. 

Poor EDTCA.  They can't win.  I applaud them for trying.  I too have some questions and opinions but I give them credit for trying.

I don't know enough about the change to offer an opinion as to the good or bad of it.    I do however applaud the TCA for making what will likely be a controversial decision in an effort to improve the York meet.   The easy decision would have been to do nothing.  I hope this change has the desired effect.

Ed

Can anyone answer these questions.

What is the cost of a TCA Annual Membership?

What is the cost to pay for Friday & Saturday / General Public Tickets? 

Gary

RJR posted:

I would like to see Thursday open earlier, so we TCA members could cover the entire place before...

Then, at what time  were you thinking that the vendors who needed to could set-up up on that day?

There are really two issues here, declining membership or the inability to articulate the value of membership to prospective members and the request (demand?) from vendors to increase foot traffic at what appears to be an expensive (for the vendors) meet for them.  Opening up the Orange hall will address the vendor concerns.  The TCA will have to take that opportunity to expose more folks to the organization in an attempt to drive membership.  From my seat, this is a good idea.  Doing nothing guaranteed the organization would have suffered a slow demise.  At least this offers a chance to see if the attendance and membership downward trend can be reversed.

trainroomgary posted:

Can anyone answer these questions.

What is the cost of a TCA Annual Membership?

$50

What is the cost to pay for Friday & Saturday / General Public Tickets? 

I doubt that has been decided yet.

Gary

 Pete

Norton posted:

trainroomgary posted:

Can anyone answer these questions.

What is the cost of a TCA Annual Membership?

$50

What is the cost to pay for Friday & Saturday / General Public Tickets? 

I doubt that has been decided yet.

Gary

 Pete

Thank you Pete:  $50.00, seems reasonable to me, there are perks.

How the Application Process Works:

Dues are currently $50 a year. The customary additional application fee of $25 is being temporarily waived. The annual dues includes a $4.50 subscription fee for the National Headquarters News, the five times a year members’ only publication.

This applicant's information will be published for review by the entire membership in the National Headquarters News.

 In the event that three members file written complaints against the probationary member, full membership is withheld until the National Membership Committee has considered the matter.

Source of information. Click here.

Gary

Will they have to join TCA?

I will wait till April and see how it goes.

No problem for me to say bye bye to TCA and York.

Jim 1939 posted:

Will they have to join TCA?

I will wait till April and see how it goes.

No problem for me to say bye bye to TCA and York.

Will who have to join the TCA?  The public?  The word seems to imply they won't.  And the good news is now you can say "goodbye" to the TCA and still go to York, you just won't be able to go in the member halls.

Andy Hummell posted:

MartyE posted:

I just don't see where all these "public" folks are going to come from.  I could be wrong but I'm not sure that unless you're within an hour of the show you're not going to make a trip out of it.  I just see memberships being dropped, and those folks becoming the majority of the public.  I think making it public is a good thing, I just don't see it as a big draw.As others have said it will be a wait and see.

Unless there is a good advertising campaign - radio and TV and maybe newspapers (if anyone reads them anymore) - I also don't know where these "public folks" will be coming from.  If they don't know about it, they won't come.

It will be interesting to see the attendance numbers when they are published and compared to the past few years' numbers.

Andy

I'm just a casual train enthusiast, 43 years old with a 9 year old that is into trains too.  I have a nice train layout roughly 6 x 13 filled with pre and postwar trains that I've acquired over the last 20 years or so from e-bay and my local train shows.  I am not a member of any train club, I think public local train shows put on by the local train clubs are for the most part good enough for what we are into.  I live about an hour and half away from York, I'd like to check the big meet there just once to see and pick through a vast amount of train stuff.  If it were open to the general public I'd probably take a day trip up there to check it out and buy some stuff.  

Opening it up would give the TCA a chance to try to enlist some newer, younger members maybe.  It would drive more foot traffic to your dealers.  Open up all the halls to us "public folks/hoi polloi/unwashed masses" and you might be surprised, some of us know how to repair an e-unit.

Train Geek

I'm under the understanding I think, that just certain halls are going to be open, if so which ones and whats in those halls? I have never been to York either so not sure what is what there. 

rtraincollector posted:

I'm under the understanding I think, that just certain halls are going to be open, if so which ones and whats in those halls? I have never been to York either so not sure what is what there. 

The dealer halls will be opened to the public the halls with the big store front dealers.  The member halls will be just that, for members.

Train_Geek posted:

Opening it up would give the TCA a chance to try to enlist some newer, younger members maybe.  It would drive more foot traffic to your dealers.  Open up all the halls to us "public folks/hoi polloi/unwashed masses" and you might be surprised, some of us know how to repair an e-unit.

Train Geek

I hope so.  New blood is always good.  I hope I'm wrong about members dropping their membership and going as you put it "public folks/hoi polloi/unwashed masses". 

DennyM posted:

From what I understand TCA membership is declining due to death, health or non renewal for one reason or another. So my question is to the people who are against opening to the public, what would you have the TCA do? You can't force people to join and you can't bring back the dead.

I think the number of members dropping their membership so they can pay as general public is small compared to the amount of members that  want to shop in the member halls. Most of the stuff I bought last October I bought in the member halls. If it doesn't effect you directly, then don't sweat it. There's no easy answer, but it's going to happen no matter what.

What can they (TCA) do? Can the quarterly "magazine", reduce operating costs, LOWER the annual dues. I am sure  that other financial cuts can be made without effecting the efficacy of the organization. That being said I am not against opening  YORK to the general public. What is good for train sellers, corporate or private, is good for me.

MartyE posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

Will they have to join TCA?

I will wait till April and see how it goes.

No problem for me to say bye bye to TCA and York.

Will who have to join the TCA?  The public?  The word seems to imply they won't.  And the good news is now you can say "goodbye" to the TCA and still go to York, you just won't be able to go in the member halls.

For me it's a 11hr drive. If I were to quit the TCA and just deal with the  dealer halls then there would be no point in going. I can just order on-line or drive to a hobby shop in my state or the next one.

I hope the attitudes about this whole thing doesn't kill train shows. Maybe everyone will wake up one day and there is no trains shows anywhere. I've seen it happen before. Not with trains, but it's all the same.

I'm surprised they are opening Fridays to the public.   I'm all for Saturday but Friday should be members only.  As stated before being a school day/work day.  I really don't see much public attending any how.

superwarp1 posted:

I'm surprised they are opening Fridays to the public.   I'm all for Saturday but Friday should be members only.  As stated before being a school day/work day.  I really don't see much public attending any how.

I suspect its got to do with compromises. Dealers want more traffic. More days means more people will be walking the aisles. This should not only bring people who have never been been to York but also those who left because the cost was just getting too high. I know quite a few friends who dropped out after TCA raised its dues.

I would be surprised if the Orange hall has any more people than attended 10 years ago but it may be just enough to keep ED in the black and keep even more dealers from jumping ship.

Pete

Spring meet for the public......Fall meet for the members (and guests).

Down the road, you would see how it pans out in popularity, sales & buys etc.

Its not the end of the world some think it is! I love having a hobby, gets me away from all the trials and tribulations of life!!

I guess the countdown (for some) to York brings a whole new meaning now. 

York is a victim of it's own popularity.  Early on when there were enough members to support both the member's halls and the dealer halls everyone had no issue with the public attending or not.  Everyone was getting a piece of the pie.  As the membership declined, on-line buying, and economical factors came about the super large show couldn't support itself with it's own membership.  So you either go back to it's roots as a small members only show or change the way you do business.  I applaud them for trying.  I like York as a bigger meet / show with the dealers, members, and manufacturers.  Let's hope this change can help preserve that. 

When it settles, there'll be something for everyone.  And what it costs really doesn't matter.   Maybe the TCA should make the first public offering a free event with a hook for joining???  Take names and send out info?  

What can they (TCA) do? Can the quarterly "magazine", reduce operating costs, LOWER the annual dues. I am sure  that other financial cuts can be made without effecting the efficacy of the organization. That being said I am not against opening  YORK to the general public. What is good for train sellers, corporate or private, is good for me.

I think the TCA Quarterly magazine is one of the core benefits of belonging to the TCA, so I'd hate to see it go.
The last financial report I saw gave me the impression that the museum was the major drain on TCA coffers. How many TCA members would like to see it closed?

The local Regal movie theater is charging $16.85 per seat to see the new Ben Hur movie in 3D.
I will continue to pay my $50 annual dues to remain a TCA member.

Well, I have been to York twice now, and both times I have spent 90% of my money in the Member Halls. So, at least in my mind, a TCA membership is still necessary to really get the best out of York.

I hope the Dealer Halls are well-advertised. It's not every day that you get to see reps of four major train manufacturers all in one place. We who are already deep into this hobby are a little jaded, maybe, but for the average person, the Orange Hall will be a real eye-opener...if we can just get them inside.

superwarp1 posted:

 I really don't see much public attending any how.

I'm glad they are finally going to open to the public, change is long over due so they need to try something. Honestly I don't think you will see that many more people than normal. Sure maybe the first time (if advertised properly) some will have to check out the hype. York, PA.... how many people even know where that is outside this hobby, even many in this hobby have never heard of it. It's a road trip to say the least, so if people are going to go, they are going to go... TCA membership or not.  

That's the only reason I joined the TCA, went to York twice and let it run out. It was a $3k adventure for me both times just to go check it out. So the TCA membership was just part of the expense. Now I have no reason for the membership and never really had interest in the member halls either. All my time was in the dealer halls. Same thing as O Scale West, had to go check out all the hype, and just like most train shows these days, really really disappointing.

eddie g posted:

So here's what is going to happen, All the members that only go to the orange hall & purple hall, they will drop there membership, & just pay for Friday & sat. as general public. 

Maybe some. I am a member of TCA. Was severely interrupted on Friday before noon with an emergency call from work. The next time I'm going to be able to attend is Oct 2017. And guess what? I'll be mailing my renewal dues to TCA next month. York isn't the only reason to be a TCA member.

Who is to say that some of the new attendees don't go ahead and join TCA so they can visit the member halls too????

Taking your side Eddie, I would fully support keeping the meet as members only for Thursday.

More foot traffic is good. This will equal more dealers, which would offer more products. Great for the buyer and seller both.

I view this as a Win-Win.

I am a TCA member and still will be there listening to the National Anthem on Thursday before noon.

GregR posted:

eddie g posted:

BIG MISTAKE!

And for you,  Eddie....as much you would fancy York as a titanic smoking lounge for withering octogenarians, it's time to move on and promote trains for everyone to enjoy

GregR posted:

eddie g posted:

BIG MISTAKE!

And for you,  Eddie....as much you would fancy York as a titanic smoking lounge for withering octogenarians, it's time to move on and promote trains for everyone to enjoy.

Or perhaps we should all rake YOU over the coals for your opinion? "Withering octogenarians"?? Sheesh.  Folks like you can stay down in Florida. 

-Greg

I could understand the "public" factor if this show was held near a major metropolitan area, Chicago, Philly, NY City, Boston, Los Angeles, Dallas, or St Louis to name a few.  But I am struggling with the quantities of "public" that are going to drive several hours to attend the York Train Show.  Round trip Baltimore is 100 miles, Philly is 220 miles, Pittsburgh is 450 miles.  Throw in a hotel room maybe with the cost of gas and admission.  I know members who make those drives and much further to go to the York show, but will the public do it?  Or will the members drop their membership and become the public?

I am not a member of the Eastern Division and was not paid or compensated for the editorial comments above.

Truly, I see this as the end of Western Civilization as we know it.