York goes public in the Spring of 2017

Notch 6 posted:

eddie g posted:

So here's what is going to happen, All the members that only go to the orange hall & purple hall, they will drop there membership, & just pay for Friday & sat. as general public. 

If the only value that a TCA member sees is a semi annual show and is willing to drop out because of this change, then the TCA has larger issues they need to be concerned about.

While I wholeheartedly agree, there seem to be a lot of TCA members who are in it only for York.  Such folks are very short-sighted in my opinion.

Regarding "where is the public going to come from", I have often driven 2-3 hours each way to attend meets that are much smaller than York and know many other folks who have done so as well.  If you draw a 3-hour circle around York, it includes a lot of people.  

Well the Legacy Users Group has always been open to the public. 

Letting the public in at York is the end of civilization as we know it. How will I ever attend knowing that the dirty masses of the unwashed will be joining us in the dealer halls? 

Should we bring our own security as a precaution? 

Get get over it people it's going to happen, if your so against the public attending York then please stay home in your safe space. 

Now back to the crying!

What if "the public" doesn't show up?

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

What if "the public" doesn't show up?

Rusty

Then all the dealers who are so certain this is the cure to make this meet more profitable for them get to think of something else.

-Dave

It was a long time coming.  Congrats to the Eastern Division for finally biting the bullet.  As a Purple Hall dealer, I am looking forward to it, particularly on Saturday which, historically, is slow. Progress is slow, but it eventually comes.

jim sutter posted:

If I was dealer and I had tables at York to sell trains, I would be more than happy. The more customers that walk past my tables the better it would be for me. Even if they didn't buy anything, I would be handing out name cards and price lists. Great way to generate more sales.

This is why Jim was one of the most successful folks in this business!!

Alan

Traindiesel posted:

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts......

*Just wondering if this was a TCA email or an Eastern Division email?  I don't see a mention of this announcement in the latest TCA email I received last week.

*Be that as it may, I imagine if this announcement was made then they must have worked out the logistics, or are working on them now.  Since York Meet registration at the door is in the member's Silver Hall, will they have a way to funnel non-members out from strolling the Silver/Blue Halls?  I'd think they'd need to set up in one of the dealer halls for non-member admissions.  They'll need more volunteers.

*You just know there will be a lot of non-members who will attempt to get into the member halls.  It's human nature.  How will they police this?  Will they be lenient at the April meet or will they enforce the admission rules?  More volunteers and more security.  Time will tell how out of hand, or not, it will get.

*I've been to a few Greenburg's Shows held in the Orange Hall the last few years.  They were sparsely attended.  I hope the 'public non-members' will see the value of a larger model train event.

*Will the Eastern Division be able to secure enough volunteers to handle the anticipated increased attendance?  

*What will be the cost of admission for the non-member public?  Currently the cost for a TCA member to register for the Meet at the door is $22.  You would think admission for a non-member who isn't a guest of a TCA member would have to cost more to keep the value of a TCA membership.  Unless the admission would be for that day only as opposed to a member's three day admission.

*Everyone who has attended the York Meet knows that late Friday and Saturdays are slower sales days, according to some vendors.  Are the vendors going to be willing to keep their booths open until closing on Saturday to serve the extra attendees, or will they still want to get outta town and start packing up before noon?  What will John and Mary Public, and their little kids Bobby and Suzie think of the hobby when they arrive at 11am on Saturday for a day of looking at trains, or maybe buying some, and see most of the vendors packed up ?

*Again, time will tell, but what happens if there is no significant increase in attendance at the Meet?  What will be the ideas of those who petitioned so hard to open the York Meet to the public?  What are the expected attendance numbers from those who petitioned for the change?  Surely they must have some marketing information that told them that large amounts of people are desiring to attend.

*I hope this decision works out for everyone.  Hopefully my thoughts above will have a positive and desired outcome.  The York Meet is a tremendous event for model train enthusiasts and I'll continue to enjoy it and support the TCA with my continued membership.  There's nothing to compare to the variety of trains, all the great vendors and the wonderful people who attend.  If you're on the fence about attending, and you love model trains, don'tcha dare miss it!!

Brian has some great questions here...but there is one I would like to express my opinion on:  Vendors, all of them regardless of which hall they are in,  should stay (not pack up) until the advertised/required time...period.  There should be some sort of consequences for packing/clearing their tables early....this goes for all of the halls...  I know in some meets I have attended, if you pack up or leave early, you are not invited back....  Folks travel wide and far to attend shows only to be disappointed to find that sellers/vendors have packed up just waiting for the "bell to ring"....

Alan

OGR Ad Man.. Just curious, How long have you been into operating or collecting toy trains?

Diok's, do you really think you are going to do better on Saturday???

Rusty Traque posted:

What if "the public" doesn't show up?

Rusty

I expect it would be a similar size crowd as appears at the Allentown show. To those who find this change abhorrent and shocking, I offer that those gleefully promoting the change should NOT be interrupted while they make a mistake. For starters, knowing there is no member recourse available for item breakage by non members is enough to keep this interesting. Stay safe in April. Be aware of those around you, don't flash your money, or carry it all in one pocket. Know who you are talking to in the parking lot.....

bigo426 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

What if "the public" doesn't show up?

Rusty

For starters, knowing there is no member recourse available for item breakage by non members is enough to keep this interesting. Stay safe in April. Be aware of those around you, don't flash your money, or carry it all in one pocket. Know who you are talking to in the parking lot.....

Well since the public won't be in the member halls this is irrelevant. 

And I will watch my money just as I do now because being in the TCA does not guarantee a person is not despicable. 

 There should be some sort of consequences for packing/clearing their tables early....this goes for all of the halls... 

Officially, there are consequences. The Eastern Division warns that anyone leaving early may be denied a table at the next show. Back in the day when the tables quickly sold out, that was readily enforceable. These days the show does not seem to sell out of tables.  They may enforce the rule anyway.

eddie g posted:

OGR Ad Man.. Just curious, How long have you been into operating or collecting toy trains?

About 50 years....

I wish all involved the best. Currently, this will not affect me since I now only attend on Thursday, and I'm mainly interested in the Orange Hall. If this is a success, and it becomes open to the public Thursday as well...I'll save $50. on TCA dues in the future. So, a "win-win" for me.

Re the dealers staying until the posted closing times...

It is my understanding (based on talking with several dealers and manufacturer folks over the past few months) that this was requested by the dealers.  If they requested it, why wouldn't they stay?  Also, the dealer halls already don't allow load out until closing time.

As long as they manage to enforce the "no public in member halls" rule, I don't see any reason not to try it.

Even if I was in TCA just for York, I would still prefer to pay for the privilege of being there at the opening bell.

However, I do hope that there will be public floggings in the lobby of the orange hall for people who walk against the arrows.  Second offense - put them in the stocks, and place a Blue Comet with a $50 price tag just out of their reach.  Third offense - burn them at the stake.

The terrorists have won.

OGR Ad Man posted:

Brian has some great questions here...but there is one I would like to express my opinion on:  Vendors, all of them regardless of which hall they are in,  should stay (not pack up) until the advertised/required time...period.  There should be some sort of consequences for packing/clearing their tables early....this goes for all of the halls...  I know in some meets I have attended, if you pack up or leave early, you are not invited back....  Folks travel wide and far to attend shows only to be disappointed to find that sellers/vendors have packed up just waiting for the "bell to ring"....

Alan

I'm relatively new as a seller (I've had I think 4 meets with my single table over the last 2 1/2 years, IIRC), but I've noted some small conflicts with this rule show up as well.

I'll open by stating I know I have a distinct advantage with only a single table that is easy to cover or pack in a short amount of time.  Obviously more is involved if people have 2, 3, or more tables (or a booth for dealers)

I'm thinking this was on Thursday and Friday as opposed to Saturday, but I've been told (not person to person, but in a sweeping announcement by the hall captain) to hurry up and cover my table so we can be out by the appointed close time for the hall for the day. 

If I understand it correctly there may be an issue with needing to pay the guards for even a small amount  of overtime (I have no idea what type of union rules or agreement with the EDTCA they may have - none of my business), especially on the days when most sellers are leaving their material there for the next day.

As much as I don't want to see hours shortened, if this is in fact a policy necessitated by financial reasons, it would be better to advertise the end 10 minutes earlier so people can keep their wares visible until the deadline and/or wrap up a final transaction and still be out before the "real" necessary exit deadline.

The other thing I've noticed in Orange is the shutting down of the lights and the announcements to finish up at least 15-20 minutes before the actual close.

-Dave

Putnam Division posted:

Wow.....wasn't expecting this that soon after the changes to October......but, it was inevitable. One has to try things to stay competitive and current. We all do it in our businesses all the time.........why not the TCA?

It's no big deal for me......York is about the people, and that won't change for me. If this broadens the appeal of the hobby and TCA, I welcome it!

Peter 

Peter, that is what it has become for me also, and I suspect it is true for a lot of other people. Simply put, I have more than enough trains. So I go to York, have a great time, but don't begin to spend the kind of money I used to spend. While that works fine for me (and probably for a lot of other people), it doesn't work well for the dealers who spend money to be there and view this as a business decision. They need to make money for their efforts. So even though Eddie and others (and shame on Webmaster and Eddie for their ****ing contest) want the show to remain the same, it won't.

Although we get statistics on the number of people who sign up for the show, we don't know how many come or what they spend.  I want to continue to go to York and enjoy the friendships I've built up over the years. I look forward to the day when the Orange Hall is so crowded on Friday that I have trouble navigating the aisles and cannot await the hour when I get a splinter in my derriere listening to the manufacturers (and others) in the grandstand or in that unused hall under the grandstand (nice move Ed). Somehow, I doubt that is going to happen, but I surely don't want to see York follow the path of the bandit shows. If this helps that, I'm for it. If not, I applaud ED for trying.

Gerry

OGR Ad Man posted:

jim sutter posted:

If I was dealer and I had tables at York to sell trains, I would be more than happy. The more customers that walk past my tables the better it would be for me. Even if they didn't buy anything, I would be handing out name cards and price lists. Great way to generate more sales.

This why Jim was one of the most successful folks in this business!!

Alan

You nailed it Alan. York is 2.5 days twice a year that a dealer has with people who have an active, verifiable interest in the product they are selling. Way too many of them still seem to be unhappy with those of us who "bother" them.

I have only stayed for a couple of Saturdays, and on those I did experience vendors packing up early. This sort of ties into what I wrote above. The people who attend are dedicated train people. You don't get a group like this very often. So you penalize the real buyer who can't take off from work because the traffic isn't there earlier. Given the fact that you are already there, it doesn't make business sense to me. As to ED enforcing the rule (I don't know if they do or not), with empty tables I doubt that it is vigorously enforced. And a rule without penalty is simply a wish.

Gerry

 As to ED enforcing the rule (I don't know if they do or not), with empty tables I doubt that it is vigorously enforced. And a rule without penalty is simply a wish.

When I was involved in promoting a local show, we had lively discussions about requiring table holders to stay until the end of the show. Fortunately, those against the requirement won out. We felt that creating and enforcing the rule would drive away the sellers. If the show is still viable in the waning hours, then table holders will stay unless they are out of stuff to sell.  We rarely had anybody leave early.

This is an unpopular view around here, but outside of the dealer halls, the table holders are fellow members  They have other things going on too, and may not be able to stay for all three days. Or they may run out of sellable merchandise. With an overabundance of tables, is it better that the tables remain vacant for all three days, as opposed to one day?

Should the ED cancel Thursday and Friday all together because some people cannot get there?

I've suggested to the Eastern Division that they create a section with one or two day tables.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

C W Burfle posted:

 As to ED enforcing the rule (I don't know if they do or not), with empty tables I doubt that it is vigorously enforced. And a rule without penalty is simply a wish.

When I was involved in promoting a local show, we had lively discussions about requiring table holders to stay until the end of the show. Fortunately, those against the requirement won out. We felt that creating and enforcing the rule would drive away the sellers. If the show is still viable in the waning hours, then table holders will stay unless they are out of stuff to sell.  We rarely had anybody leave early.

This is an unpopular view around here, but outside of the dealer halls, the table holders are fellow members  They have other things going on too, and may not be able to stay for all three days. Or they may run out of sellable merchandise. With an overabundance of tables, is it better that the tables remain vacant for all three days, as opposed to one day?

Should the ED cancel Thursday and Friday all together because some people cannot get there?

I've suggested to the Eastern Division that they create a section with one or two day tables.

Well...so much for me sticking my two cents in....BUT.....if folks are going to have to pay to come into a train meet (in this case I will use the "public" as an example and they are given/told that the meet ends at a certain time on the particular day they are there...AND...they see sellers packing up, then this can leave a negative impression.  I know if I were "JQ Public" and paid to see a meet that ends at so and so time only to find sellers appearing to leave early, I would feel a little cheated....I mean I paid for the whole day, not early checkout!  There is a difference between being out of stuff to sell and packing up early...and I am not talking about 10 or 15 minutes early...   Hey, I didn't mean to start a debate on this topic, I was just sayin'

Alan

 I know if I were "JQ Public" and paid to see a meet that ends at so and so time only to find sellers appearing to leave early, I would feel a little cheated....I mean I paid for the whole day, not early checkout! 

The member halls are still not allowing "JQ Public".

Even so, I will grant you that some folks would be disappointed to find that a significant number of dealers had left. So what to do? Drop the hobby? Skip the train shows in the future? Or try to get there earlier?

My first York, I didn't get there until late Friday afternoon (back in the two day show days). Almost everybody had covered their tables and left. Was I disappointed?.... sure. But I also met John Bradshaw, and came away with some new knowledge and a bunch of AMT and KMT trains. I also realized that I had to get there earlier in the future, or not bother to go. 

I just don't think trying to penalize sellers in the dealer hall would have a positive effect on the show. It's my impression that the dealer halls are no longer selling out. It goes back to the questions: better to have a booth empty all three days, as opposed to Saturday afternoon? Does it make sense for someone to stay when they are out of saleable merchandise?

If the crowds are there and buying, dealers will stay if at all possible.

Rusty Traque posted:

What if "the public" doesn't show up?

Rusty

Interesting change and I hope it will work but....

The ones who do, will be taking the kids to see the Choo Choo’s go round & round. I don’t think they will be buying 400 dollar engines and 75 dollar box cars.

If I’m in the area, I might swing by and see what it is all about.

A smart idea .. The more traffic the better.. Obviously hurting as TCA membership is down.. 

One thing I did not see mentioned is ADVERTISING. That is what Greenberg, Worlds Greatest Hobby, and others use to get the "public" to shows. Wonder who is going to pay for print and radio ads? Wonder what the ads will say..."Come to a huge train show at the York Fairgrounds Friday and Saturday. No admittance on Thursday. No admittance to 5 of the 7 buildings. Dealers leave 2pm on Saturday." ?

The only public there is going to be, is members dropping out, and coming back as general public.

Does anybody remember the reason the meet was switched from a two day meet to the current three day schedule? I thought part of it had to do with dispersing the larger crowds we had back then over the three day period. Maybe it's time to go back to a two day meet again. The first day would only be opened to TCA members and the second day could allow the public to attend. I would think this would also make a lot of vendors happy by saving them an extra day of expenses.

eddie g posted:

The only public there is going to be, is members dropping out, and coming back as general public.

Eddie

I see the same thing happening.  I suspect there will be some folks, not currently members, coming in but I just don't see a large public influx especially Friday.  If the meet / show were Saturday and Sunday maybe.

NJCJOE posted:

Does anybody remember the reason the meet was switched from a two day meet to the current three day schedule? I thought part of it had to do with dispersing the larger crowds we had back then over the three day period. Maybe it's time to go back to a two day meet again. The first day would only be opened to TCA members and the second day could allow the public to attend. I would think this would also make a lot of vendors happy by saving them an extra day of expenses.

Joe

Interesting thought.  If this were to happen I would imagine a lot of the "satellite" activity will probably go away like the Legacy Users Group and maybe even the DCS meeting.  The OGR dinner would also probably take a hit.  Many of those were a byproduct of the 3 day event.  I'd probably go back to driving in and out on the same day like I used to.

eddie g posted:

The only public there is going to be, is members dropping out, and coming back as general public.

Eddie, I think that may be the case for some.   I will be keeping my TCA membership active.   Why drive 8+ hours for only two halls on Friday and (2pm close) Saturday.   I want the whole York experience!   I'll stick with my Thursday and Friday all access plan.   I'd still go if it was just a member table meet.   For me, York is about meeting and making new friends.

I noticed the longer I stay the more I spend... The more ground I can cover, the more ideas I get, the more products I can become familiar with...

York should be all week long... with the dealers halls open to the public.  Member halls can have what ever rules they deem necessary, but I know its just crazy talk...

I know I walked away saying "And I did not have enough time to get back to table X and talk to so and so and buy such and such".  And I forgot where this was... who had that?  Nuts, I should have gone back and gave that man my number and email and when I have more money, I will send him it next month if he still has it...

What would kill York is if the dealers stopped bring product to the shows... people will just stay home and search on the bay.

I notice that Trainz Market place did not even bring any trains... why in the heck show up?

OGR Ad Man posted:

Traindiesel posted:

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts......

*Just wondering if this was a TCA email or an Eastern Division email?  I don't see a mention of this announcement in the latest TCA email I received last week.

*Be that as it may, I imagine if this announcement was made then they must have worked out the logistics, or are working on them now.  Since York Meet registration at the door is in the member's Silver Hall, will they have a way to funnel non-members out from strolling the Silver/Blue Halls?  I'd think they'd need to set up in one of the dealer halls for non-member admissions.  They'll need more volunteers.

*You just know there will be a lot of non-members who will attempt to get into the member halls.  It's human nature.  How will they police this?  Will they be lenient at the April meet or will they enforce the admission rules?  More volunteers and more security.  Time will tell how out of hand, or not, it will get.

*I've been to a few Greenburg's Shows held in the Orange Hall the last few years.  They were sparsely attended.  I hope the 'public non-members' will see the value of a larger model train event.

*Will the Eastern Division be able to secure enough volunteers to handle the anticipated increased attendance?  

*What will be the cost of admission for the non-member public?  Currently the cost for a TCA member to register for the Meet at the door is $22.  You would think admission for a non-member who isn't a guest of a TCA member would have to cost more to keep the value of a TCA membership.  Unless the admission would be for that day only as opposed to a member's three day admission.

*Everyone who has attended the York Meet knows that late Friday and Saturdays are slower sales days, according to some vendors.  Are the vendors going to be willing to keep their booths open until closing on Saturday to serve the extra attendees, or will they still want to get outta town and start packing up before noon?  What will John and Mary Public, and their little kids Bobby and Suzie think of the hobby when they arrive at 11am on Saturday for a day of looking at trains, or maybe buying some, and see most of the vendors packed up ?

*Again, time will tell, but what happens if there is no significant increase in attendance at the Meet?  What will be the ideas of those who petitioned so hard to open the York Meet to the public?  What are the expected attendance numbers from those who petitioned for the change?  Surely they must have some marketing information that told them that large amounts of people are desiring to attend.

*I hope this decision works out for everyone.  Hopefully my thoughts above will have a positive and desired outcome.  The York Meet is a tremendous event for model train enthusiasts and I'll continue to enjoy it and support the TCA with my continued membership.  There's nothing to compare to the variety of trains, all the great vendors and the wonderful people who attend.  If you're on the fence about attending, and you love model trains, don'tcha dare miss it!!

Brian has some great questions here...but there is one I would like to express my opinion on:  Vendors, all of them regardless of which hall they are in,  should stay (not pack up) until the advertised/required time...period.  There should be some sort of consequences for packing/clearing their tables early....this goes for all of the halls...  I know in some meets I have attended, if you pack up or leave early, you are not invited back....  Folks travel wide and far to attend shows only to be disappointed to find that sellers/vendors have packed up just waiting for the "bell to ring"....

Alan

I'm sure they will attempt, To me if I was doing it seeing they only can get into Dealer halls, I would do some promotion like to gain access to the Member halls you must join The TCA and we will give you 1/2 price admission. This is a one time availability, just like the currant guess option, once done they can't come back and do it again the next year.   I also would do it like Fridays and Saturdays only let the members who pay there dues and the full admission have Thursday for themselves. 

I would also look into changing Saturday on the dealer halls say to 4PM if your going to be open to the public. A lot of time with other things going on the Public can't get out there to 12 or so. Personally I say try it once and see how it works if not go back to the 2 PM.

I personally think this will pull folks as far as Philly maybe even as far south as Wilmington, DE. or so. 

I grew up in that area ( West Chester, PA.) and I also realized a lot has changed since I was there. But I know the north east is still a lot of train collectors. I also realize more and more are going to HO, Which is the real attraction these days. I still prefer O over any gauge. 

My questions now 

Is allowing HO in to the system going to be next? it is TCA Train Collectors Association. If attendance and membership is needed is it going to be done and taken over by HO. I hope not. I understand we are a O gauge and Standard Gauge organization But who to say. 

Is allowing HO in to the system going to be next? it is TCA Train Collectors Association. If attendance and membership is needed is it going to be done and taken over by HO. I hope not. I understand we are a O gauge and Standard Gauge organization But who to say. 

As long as I have been a member of the TCA and attending the York show, there has been HO trains there. "N" gauge, and all other gauges too. There is also a significant amount of "S" gauge there too. The Eastern Division does not have any rules about gauge or scale. According to the rules, all items are supposed to be train related, but that rule is very loosely interpreted.

While "O" gauge and standard gauge are probably the most popular, the TCA welcomes folks interested in any and all toy / model trains.  Heck, if we can make the club more appealing to the HO and N gauge folks, maybe the TCA's membership numbers wouldn't be an issue.

C W Burfle posted:

Is allowing HO in to the system going to be next? it is TCA Train Collectors Association. If attendance and membership is needed is it going to be done and taken over by HO. I hope not. I understand we are a O gauge and Standard Gauge organization But who to say. 

As long as I have been a member of the TCA and attending the York show, there has been HO trains there. "N" gauge, and all other gauges too. There is also a significant amount of "S" gauge there too. The Eastern Division does not have any rules about gauge or scale. According to the rules, all items are supposed to be train related, but that rule is very loosely interpreted.

While "O" gauge and standard gauge are probably the most popular, the TCA welcomes folks interested in any and all toy / model trains.  Heck, if we can make the club more appealing to the HO and N gauge folks, maybe the TCA's membership numbers wouldn't be an issue.

That's right, the more the merrier. I saw die-cast solders, Tonka Toys, cast iron trains, and G gauge items, of course O is king there.

Wow - it always amazes me how adverse people can be to any type of change whatsoever! I've been coming to this show for many years as a manufacturer's representative and I can honestly tell you that the number of folks attending this meet has dropped off significantly over the last few years. None of the folks I see and talk to are getting any younger (myself included!). It is always great to go out and show the product to the public but the manufacturers have an obligation to bring new people into the hobby so that it can grow. We love spending time speaking to everyone about the hobby but we also need to speak with the uninitiated out there who see our products as something "New" - even the older products. This is key - when new people take an interest in the hobby all of the products in a manufacturer's catalog are new to them which means the manufacturer sells more items making it possible to produce new ones for you the "Old guard". I know it is hard to believe but if manufacturers can't keep selling the older products they can't afford to make that new locomotive that you guys want. And that is pretty much what the York show has become - "What's new this year?" and if you don't have something new people actually get angry. I believe opening the meet to the public  is an attempt to help out the manufacturers by bringing fresh blood into the halls to help grow the hobby and it is a chance for the TCA to grow it's membership by showcasing what they are to a new generation of potential train enthusiasts. I would also like to address the issue of dealers leaving early on Saturday - they leave mainly because there are no people coming in after about noon. If there are more people in the hall I'm sure they will be inclined to stick around. Also in regard to "How are they going to get people to come?" I believe the manufacturers will be more than willing to advertise the show to the public and help out with getting the word out there. It costs the major manufacturers an awful lot of money to attend this show and their attendance is what makes the show as appealing as it is. If Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, Atlas, etc... weren't there I don't think the meet would have as much of an impact as it does so it needs to be worthwhile for them to put out the money and effort to attend. Giving them a shot at a new audience can be beneficial to everyone involved! Now let me step down of this soapbox.....

Well, the doomsday sayers have faithfully come out once more on the negative side of this  issue and for those folks, I present you this thought to ponder:

Could this change provide the impetus for some of those people who are full time dealers with internet or brick and mortar businesses who currently sell in the member halls to eventually switch to a dealer hall with the hope of snagging possible increased sales there from the non TCA member attendees?

BucksCo posted:

Wow - it always amazes me how adverse people can be to any type of change whatsoever! I've been coming to this show for many years as a manufacturer's representative and I can honestly tell you that the number of folks attending this meet has dropped off significantly over the last few years. None of the folks I see and talk to are getting any younger (myself included!). It is always great to go out and show the product to the public but the manufacturers have an obligation to bring new people into the hobby so that it can grow. We love spending time speaking to everyone about the hobby but we also need to speak with the uninitiated out there who see our products as something "New" - even the older products. This is key - when new people take an interest in the hobby all of the products in a manufacturer's catalog are new to them which means the manufacturer sells more items making it possible to produce new ones for you the "Old guard". I know it is hard to believe but if manufacturers can't keep selling the older products they can't afford to make that new locomotive that you guys want. And that is pretty much what the York show has become - "What's new this year?" and if you don't have something new people actually get angry. I believe opening the meet to the public  is an attempt to help out the manufacturers by bringing fresh blood into the halls to help grow the hobby and it is a chance for the TCA to grow it's membership by showcasing what they are to a new generation of potential train enthusiasts. I would also like to address the issue of dealers leaving early on Saturday - they leave mainly because there are no people coming in after about noon. If there are more people in the hall I'm sure they will be inclined to stick around. Also in regard to "How are they going to get people to come?" I believe the manufacturers will be more than willing to advertise the show to the public and help out with getting the word out there. It costs the major manufacturers an awful lot of money to attend this show and their attendance is what makes the show as appealing as it is. If Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, Atlas, etc... weren't there I don't think the meet would have as much of an impact as it does so it needs to be worthwhile for them to put out the money and effort to attend. Giving them a shot at a new audience can be beneficial to everyone involved! Now let me step down of this soapbox.....

Could not have been said better!!!

Alan

I agree with what Bucks Co said, I'm just not sure York as it stands can draw that much public mainly due to the days of operation and location.  Again though it's great to see them trying.  Maybe now we take some responsibility and drag along a few friends.  I would echo the comments of others, advertising, and a hard and enforced end of day for dealer halls on Saturday.